News and Rumours: PS4

[fearsomepirate]

The Radeon 7670 isn't even a 50% improvement in fill rate over the PS3.

RAM is the hard limit on the amount of content you can put on screen. Most games last gen were designed for the PS2, which had 32 MB of main memory. This gen, we've gotten a 16x increase. If we're talking a 4x increase in RAM for next gen, that's more like Dreamcast to Xbox than PS2 to PS3. Noticeable, sure, but not going to set the market on fire. We're not talking going from MGS3 to MGS4, we're talking about going from current-gen Crysis 2 to PC Crysis 2 at best. I mean once you've gone from the all-to-frequent 600p to 1080p, improved the texture resolution and mesh fidelity, and increased the LOD, how much more memory are you really going to have to put anything interesting in there content-wise?

Sure, Battlefield 3 on a next-gen console with 2 to 4 GB of RAM will have the full maps, but the difference between "64 player Battlefield 3 with fancier shaders" and "24 player Battlefield 3 with not quite as fancy shaders" isn't anything like "Call of Duty: Big Red One vs Call of Duty 2."

They'd better have more up their sleeve than a modest hardware upgrade. Heck, the only reason I went with the HD consoles this gen is the software library on the Wii was so abysmally bad. Nintendo very nearly sold me one of the things.

 

[liolio]

Just an example an open world Uncharted for example? And with way better graphics, a lot of crown and more complex AI. Way more accurate more physics.
For racing games that look close the garage models.
More and finer real time destruction.

They could bring what the 360 MS said failed to deliver, procedural content, they said that latency was to high (calculation time too high, communication overhead between cpu and gpu too high).

On eye candy alone, more consistant AA, way better motion blur, depth of field of greater quality. Higher texture quality with good filtering, more particle. You can work on various render target really in parallel just like the SPU were doing such a set-up would just be so much potent to it.

There is tessellation but that eye candy too. I expect less aggressive LOD, etc.

Thing is why do you think that what they won't be able to do (so new ideas) with 1.4TFLOPS they will for they say 2TFLOPS? That's the definition of arbitrariness.
Or what those extra 0.6 TFLOPS allows the other 1.4TFLOPS don't?

Is the missing software component missing, like animation for finer movement, handling things (it's all about pressure friction and feeback, even kinect doesn't make that trivial in any way) so interacting with more object, realtime procedural content creation, new genres, etc are to happen all of sudden because of 0.6TFLOPS? Or it's 1extra FLOPS that is needed, where is the threshold for that to happen?

I find that the design could prove pretty flexible, more than a GPU assigned with to many tasks (from graphic to physics, to AI, to whatever one decide is a good target for GPU acceleration).
And as a costumer you are right to be picky and ultimately you do as you want.

For the wii well it doesn't take a marketing degree to tell the difference in what the rumor of the day states and the flea jump from GC to the Wii, imho that's quiet pushing.

For fresh factor I believe in the Wiiu design even though Nintendo seems nowhere near in situation to pull the best out it for both technical and software reasons.

 

[Rangers]

RAM is the hard limit on the amount of content you can put on screen. Most games last gen were designed for the PS2, which had 32 MB of main memory. This gen, we've gotten a 16x increase.

Then again, if you look at the ridiculous shit these consoles pull off with stuff like Gears 3 and Killzone 3, what they could do with 4 times the memory, and even you know, 3-4X the GPU would be pretty amazing.

I mean I agree with you dont get me wrong.

This board has so beaten me down with it's negativity I'll be thrilled with even 2GB LOL. It's like we're too expect ANY increase is just way too expensive.

The new PS4 rumors today from IGN are just really weird. And not just that they exactly match some previous recent Durango rumors (two GPU's, 6670). It also doesn't seem to really make sense from a system design standpoint.

I will say, Sony certainly likes their odd CPU's with SP's bolted on that can do graphics work, right? In that way it fits I guess.

 

[jlippo]

Isnt PSGL pretty worthless for any optimum ps3 performance?

Considering that most developer comments seem to be like this, I would quess so..

no, no one in their sane mind uses OpenGL on PS3

 

[BoardBonobo]

It strikes me that the next gen is really going to be a downgrade compared to the performance arc that the current gen was on. It means that all we will get is the same games as this generation but with the image quality that we were missing.

I view my Vita as more of an upgrade than the rumoured specs for the PS4 are. All the more reason to concentrate on the burgeoning mobile market and to stick with the 360\PS3.

 

[ultragpu]

OK let's think it this way, a severely underpowered nextgen console besides wii U would do much more damage than good to the console maker in the long run. The gap between PC and consoles would widen on a blazing fast rate and in a couple of years of time "most likely less", we would be craving for better hardware already. The cheap silicons from AMD's budget bin is simply not worthwhile not to mention reiterate a long 10 years cycle. At this point, it's best for both Sony and M$ to re evaluate their plans if money or technical issues are troubling them. You should either do it splendidly or not do it at all!

 

[fearsomepirate]

OK let's think it this way, a severely underpowered nextgen console besides wii U would do much more damage than good to the console maker in the long run. The gap between PC and consoles would widen on a blazing fast rate and in a couple of years of time "most likely less", we would be craving for better hardware already. The cheap silicons from AMD's budget bin is simply not worthwhile not to mention reiterate a long 10 years cycle. At this point, it's best for both Sony and M$ to re evaluate their plans if money or technical issues are troubling them. You should either do it splendidly or not do it at all!

Yes, this will finally be the year that all the predictions about the Great Exodus from consoles to PCs will come true. Hasn't come true for 15 years, but you know, maybe this is finally it.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

OK let's think it this way, a severely underpowered nextgen console besides wii U would do much more damage than good to the console maker in the long run. The gap between PC and consoles would widen on a blazing fast rate and in a couple of years of time "most likely less", we would be craving for better hardware already. The cheap silicons from AMD's budget bin is simply not worthwhile not to mention reiterate a long 10 years cycle. At this point, it's best for both Sony and M$ to re evaluate their plans if money or technical issues are troubling them. You should either do it splendidly or not do it at all!

I disagree. For those who haven't experienced better PC gaming, the improvement of next-gen hardware, despite being much lower than PC, will be a big leap up. Similar to improvements in mobile graphics being awesome despite being rubbish next to a PC or the consoles; perception is relative to context. As long as the console companies continue to fund their stellar 1st/2nd party output, it'll be the content that consumers will be interested in, rather than the hardware. That's why people like me still aren't interested in gaming on PC. I can't get Starhawk or Uncharted, or Mario Galaxies, or whatever else I play, on PC.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I also can't get a PC that doesn't make me want to drive my fist through the screen, what with Windows being itself.

 

[JPT]

I am also in the no PC for gaming camp, I got a laptop with Linux on it, its not a gaming rig. I do not want to have a PC gaming rig at home, its a waste of space and money to me. A console fits nicely under the TV and for my usage.

As for the hike in performance for the upcoming gen, well gfx are nice, but are the games fun? Thats the most important aspect in my book.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There is the possibility over the course of next-gen that the PC will see a revamp, and we'll have small boxes running a Metro interface with a lot of the ghastly Windows overkill hidden from the users. If the consoles don't evolve and the PC does, then we might see a migration. Although we'd perhaps need a new hardware partnership, for a standard in replacable parts. If you could buy a GPU module that fitted into your PC case similar to PS3's HDD, then users would be happy with upgrading. If they still need to unscrew cases and poke around with circuit boards, general consumers won't be interested. I guess the PC boxes could be disposed off/upgraded every couple of years for the new version, that runs the same games at higher spec, and the old box is given to the kids/friends. The cost of PC hardware limits that model though, and it progresses through component upgrades amoung enthusiasts. I can't see that changing and Windows providing a CE box ecosystem.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

OGL 4.0 is basically free though, I don't see anything about dx11 that's worth paying for. Is there?

Rage and id software might disagree.

 

[Prophecy2k]

Windows will simply never replace consoles.

Regardless of what the console manufacturers do, the kids will still get their parents to buy them consoles (or idevices), the rest will also swallow their pride and buy into them too, even going so far as to launch their apologetic internet crusades to defend the console HW companies.

You may see some really hardcore gamers buying gaming PCs (as you do now) but most will remain on console, as will the bulk of software development, if not on newer devices or platforms like iOS, Onlive etc.

PC is simply too open a platform for pubs and the massive corporate entities that games companies are becoming to rely on solely. Publishers like the degree of "closed-ness" of console platforms, and PC simply doesn't afford them that at all. If consoles die then they will look to the next best thing outside of PC. Issues like security, piracy, etc will keep publishers away from PC in the longterm, at least to any more significant a degree than they are now.

Regardless of how dissappointing this next-gen is (and i truly hope it isn't) i still don't see a death of consoles, nor any kind of mass exodus of core gaming to PC. I think that's just wishful thinking by the PC gaming nerds on the internet.

 

[Tahir2]

Llano + 7670 for PS4?
Nope, can't have that - way too low of an improvement. Is this what one of the Sony higherups meant by "programmable" silicon - a standard APU?

Here is hoping the rumour is wrong - I like the idea of an APU simply because it could help with effects like cloth simulation or other additional effects but having an APU just so you can use hybrid crossfire with another low-end discreet GPU doesn't sound like Sony. In fact I would have expected the Wii U to be that kind of spec, not the PS4!

 

[mrcorbo]

Couldn't there also be performance gains from creating a more efficient architecture? You can't really compare peak performance numbers between 2 architectures and say platform A is X times as powerful as platform B. What if platform B better utilizes the resources it has and is more often able to achieve close to its peak performance? Wouldn't the performance delta be greater than what just comparing the theoreticals would suggest?

Ultimately, I think the console manufacturers have a lot of profiling data available to them, more so than in prior generations where the development tools were less sophisticated, that shows where the bottlenecks in current architectures are. I expect that a lot of the hardware development will be focused on eliminating these bottlenecks and making sure that the system is able to run with inherent efficiency with less of a burden on the developers to achieve peak performance.

Also, even if the basic building blocks of this system turn out to be exactly what these rumors suggest, we still have no idea in what configuration these elements are going to be assembled nor what tweaks will be made to them in their transition from PC to console parts. It seems a bit premature to dismiss this architecture as only being a modest performance improvement.

 

[wco81]

It strikes me that the next gen is really going to be a downgrade compared to the performance arc that the current gen was on. It means that all we will get is the same games as this generation but with the image quality that we were missing.

I view my Vita as more of an upgrade than the rumoured specs for the PS4 are. All the more reason to concentrate on the burgeoning mobile market and to stick with the 360\PS3.

Well mobile devices are suppose to reach parity with 360/PS3 in the next year or two, aren't they, with Rogue and A15?

A couple more iterations of the iPad and there might be enough games rendered at the native resolution. Yes it would be lacking in many ways but just being able to tout that there are a million more pixels than 1080p games or even more than the sub-720p games on the 360/PS3.

All the more reason Sony and MS need to put more distance in performance between the current and next gen.

Unless, Sony is hoping to make money or minimize the subsidies to launch pricing. Maybe they see $500 tablets being sold in the millions every year and each unit is profitable. So maybe the low-end AMD silicon would give them a profit or close to break-even at a $400 launch price?

If that's possible, instead of a 10-year cycle, they can aim to upgrade the hardware every 2-3 years at the same price-point -- essentially going from the traditional console business model to the mobile device business model.

 

[Tahir2]

It seems a bit premature to dismiss this architecture as only being a modest performance improvement.

It is a modest improvement comparing it to what the potential max performance available is and what these rumours suggest Sony are developing.

You are absolutely correct, a closed system will be able to take advantage of developers being able to push it "closer to the metal" but there is only so much you can do.

We are talking about a system that will have to last at a minimum 5 years, perhaps more and with Sony touting 4k displays and the enthusiast wanting 1080p with some form of AA to improve picture quality and on top of that unique features that the current gen simply can't offer - yes it is disappointing. Hugely because even attaining 1080p with decent AA is going to be a struggle unless image pixel fidelity is kept the same as this gen.

As to the configuration - Sony could get the APU at 4GHz and the GPU at 1.5GHz - with GDDR5 at 1.5GHz (effective 6GHz.) But don't we know that increasing clockspeed over a certain threshold also greatly increases power (and thus thermal) output? I don't think we need a new YLOD fiasco.

 

[McHuj]

Llano + 7670 for PS4?
Nope, can't have that - way too low of an improvement. Is this what one of the Sony higherups meant by "programmable" silicon - a standard APU?

Here is hoping the rumour is wrong - I like the idea of an APU simply because it could help with effects like cloth simulation or other additional effects but having an APU just so you can use hybrid crossfire with another low-end discreet GPU doesn't sound like Sony. In fact I would have expected the Wii U to be that kind of spec, not the PS4!

My guess that the current dev kit maybe Llano + 7670 so that PS Devs can learn to utilize and optimize for the APU and the shared memory between the CPU and GPU.

If you look at the performance of a 7670 (768 Gigaflops) and the 3850 (480 gigaflops), combined they can account for 1248 gigaflops and that's in the ballpark (on the high side) of what AMD is projecting for a 2013 APU's integrated GPU.

So my guess is that the final PS4 APU will have the equivalent GPU performance (in terms of gigaflops) of the 3850 and 7670, hopefully with more modern shaders than VLIW5.

To me, it also makes no sense to me why Sony would actually use a Llano chip when Trinity is about to release with better power, performance, and rumored much better yields on 32nm.

 

[JB9861]

Well mobile devices are suppose to reach parity with 360/PS3 in the next year or two, aren't they, with Rogue and A15?

A couple more iterations of the iPad and there might be enough games rendered at the native resolution. Yes it would be lacking in many ways but just being able to tout that there are a million more pixels than 1080p games or even more than the sub-720p games on the 360/PS3.

That basically can be touted today. Rogue and A15 will allow for your typical current console game at 720p and below scaled up. Still underpowered for the iPad's screen. In any case, the argument gets more compelling with each passing year.

 

[Rangers]

Do Rogue and A15 reach 250 gflops?

Because I was shocked to learn SGX543MP4, current mobile king, is only 28 gflops, 1/10 of PS360.