New XNA FAQs

[Dominik D]

That's obvious NavNucST3, break the law!

But seriously Tommy, it's pretty ignorant of you to make statements like these. How often do you pay taxes outside of US? I used to live and work in Poland and you _have to_ hire someone with MBS to do your taxes if you don't have 3-4 days to spare to wrap your head around the year-to-year changes and overal complexity of the system. In US I filed my taxes online in 45 minutes. Extra complexity for people from countries other than US comes from how tax laws work in those countries.

 

[AzBat]

Your anger seems misplaced, I don't even see why this "tax nonsense" is an issue. What plan can you offer that allows people that DO want to sell their games avoid their legal obligation?

It's another layer of nonsense added to an already ill-conceived business model. Community Games are turning more into the Junior Varsity Team of Live Arcade. They are taking the Live Arcade business model and structure and applying to "indie" games. It needs to be more like the YouTube and eBay model to inspire creativity while also growing entrepreneurs in the game industry.

They could have gone this route:

1) create a user account & upload your game
2) choose whether you want to charge or give away your game
3) If you charge, give customers the ability to directly send whatever fee you require in Microsoft Points(no preset pricing schemes) and Microsoft gets a cut & any listing fees. You're responsible for taking care of whatever your federal, state or local governments require for reporting the income. Don't make it a requirement just to get a quarterly check directly from Microsoft.
4) If you don't charge for the game, then Microsoft can use advertising to make money off your title to help pay the cost of whatever resources are needed to serve your game to the public.

Simple as that. LOL

Tommy McClain

 

[AzBat]

That's obvious NavNucST3, break the law!

But seriously Tommy, it's pretty ignorant of you to make statements like these. How often do you pay taxes outside of US? I used to live and work in Poland and you _have to_ hire someone with MBS to do your taxes if you don't have 3-4 days to spare to wrap your head around the year-to-year changes and overal complexity of the system. In US I filed my taxes online in 45 minutes. Extra complexity for people from countries other than US comes from how tax laws work in those countries.

But yes that's my point. There are guys on the XNA forums that are worried about getting paid overseas due the complexity of Microsoft's requirement. If Microsoft did it similar to eBay, then I feel it wouldn't be as much of an issue. Don't get me wrong I'm not trying give people a reason not to pay sales or income taxes(I work in a county tax office BTW). I just think that the way Microsoft is trying to handle it is not the best way to entice Joe Schmo into making creative games for the service.

Tommy McClain

 

[Zassk]

I don't see how that would avoid tax implications, Tommy. If you receive payment in any form, then you owe taxes.

Surely the tax situation is the same with WiiWare, PSN and Steam. I don't see how they can be any different.

At the end of the day, you can still give away your XNA games unfettered - it just has to be the Windows binary instead.

 

[AzBat]

I don't see how that would avoid tax implications, Tommy. If you receive payment in any form, then you owe taxes.

Surely the tax situation is the same with WiiWare, PSN and Steam. I don't see how they can be any different.

At the end of the day, you can still give away your XNA games unfettered - it just has to be the Windows binary instead.

Again, you're not understanding my suggestion. I'm not saying that they should avoid the tax implications. I'm saying that Microsoft shouldn't make it a requirement to fill out a W9 or have a EIN/ITIN just to get paid. Yes, the developer should do what is required by their government to claim their earnings, but Microsoft enforcing it in order to pay them shouldn't be necessary.

Tommy McClain

 

[obonicus]

Again, you're not understanding my suggestion. I'm not saying that they should avoid the tax implications. I'm saying that Microsoft shouldn't make it a requirement to fill out a W9 or have a EIN/ITIN just to get paid. Yes, the developer should do what is required by their government to claim their earnings, but Microsoft enforcing it in order to pay them shouldn't be necessary.

Tommy McClain

I think that more importantly, Microsoft shouldn't make charging for games mandatory. That's what makes it especially messy.

 

[Zassk]

The free route is through the Windows binary of your XNA project. I guess it'd be nice to give the XBox binary free as well, but personally I don't expect a network infrastructure to be built gratis to support that.

 

[tuna]

The free route is through the Windows binary of your XNA project. I guess it'd be nice to give the XBox binary free as well, but personally I don't expect a network infrastructure to be built gratis to support that.

Don't you have to pay to be part of the XNA Xbox programme anymore?

 

[Zassk]

Don't you have to pay to be part of the XNA Xbox programme anymore?

Only to make XBox games, not Zune or Windows games.

 

[pipo]

The free route is through the Windows binary of your XNA project. I guess it'd be nice to give the XBox binary free as well, but personally I don't expect a network infrastructure to be built gratis to support that.

+1

I would like everything to be free. Tough luck...

 

[obonicus]

The free route is through the Windows binary of your XNA project. I guess it'd be nice to give the XBox binary free as well, but personally I don't expect a network infrastructure to be built gratis to support that.

Ad-supported? I do. The only reason MS doesn't is because they know they have a captive audience. If adoption is slow I'd expect them to change their mind, like they did for GFW Live.

 

[expletive]

Ad-supported? I do. The only reason MS doesn't is because they know they have a captive audience. If adoption is slow I'd expect them to change their mind, like they did for GFW Live.

I dont think theres really anything captive about people browsing the XNA section of the NXE, they have plenty of entertainment options both on and off the 360.

I think there may be a few reasons they force people to charge for games:

1. It levels the playing field with all creators and doesnt give an advantage to those who would have the resources (or lack of responsibilities) to put out a free game against those who couldnt.

2. Keeps their retail (and XBLA) publishers happy in that the games will appropriately slot into a value proposition based on cost and quality (theoretically). There will be exceptions where the $5 XNA tetris clone is more fun that the $20 XBLA version but overall i think this is in place to protect each segment of their market from people playing all 'free' games.

3. They ran the numbers on the various business models and this was the most beneficial for MS and/or some of their partners. (duh)

 

[obonicus]

I dont think theres really anything captive about people browsing the XNA section of the NXE, they have plenty of entertainment options both on and off the 360.

There's no alternative on the 360, though. You have a 360, you gotta go that way. There's no free alternative.

1. It levels the playing field with all creators and doesnt give an advantage to those who would have the resources (or lack of responsibilities) to put out a free game against those who couldnt.

Why do we need to level the playing field? It's not meant to be a fair competition, the whole idea is for the cream to rise to the top.

2. Keeps their retail (and XBLA) publishers happy in that the games will appropriately slot into a value proposition based on cost and quality (theoretically). There will be exceptions where the $5 XNA tetris clone is more fun that the $20 XBLA version but overall i think this is in place to protect each segment of their market from people playing all 'free' games.

There's some merit to this, I suppose, though it is troubling.

3. They ran the numbers on the various business models and this was the most beneficial for MS and/or some of their partners. (duh)

Unquestionably it's better for them, but they could be wrong. And the point is they don't have to do it. It's not like MS charges for MSN, Live search or hotmail. Or GFW Live, now!

 

[expletive]

Why do we need to level the playing field? It's not meant to be a fair competition, the whole idea is for the cream to rise to the top.

The way I see it is that someone who wouldve HAD to charge for a game to support its creation, might be put off by a marketplace where the 'free alternatives' rule the roost. This might prevent someone who would otherwise create the next 'braid' from ever trying. Forcing everyone to charge for games eliminates this scenario.

There's some merit to this, I suppose, though it is troubling.

Yeah, but in the end MS has to keep this platform fertile for developers so that 360 owners get the AAA titles they want. My guess is that Capcom wouldnt feel as troubled by it.

Unquestionably it's better for them, but they could be wrong. And the point is they don't have to do it. It's not like MS charges for MSN, Live search or hotmail. Or GFW Live, now!

They may be believe they do have to, see #'s 1 and 2.

 

[makattack]

Anyone following the XNA Game Studio 3 launch today? I've just upgraded from the beta. I bought a 360 solely for the ability to write code I can deploy to it, and am very impressed by the potential. I just fear I won't have time to play any games on it since the only time I have to code for it is on my own time. Actually, so far, all my time playing games on it have been spent in the hours just before turning in, resulting in my falling asleep with the controls in my hands.

 

[makattack]

Interesting article/interview with

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=20915

Summary:

Nathan Fouts, founder and president of Mommy's Best Games (as well as its only full-time employee.) His game, Weapon of Choice, is a neo-retro throwback that brings to mind classics like Contra while embracing contemporary design choices.

Despite its hardest-of-hardcore looks and (nearly) one-man creation, it sprang not from the mind of an enthusiastic amateur, but a seasoned professional.

Though Fouts left Insomniac Games to found his own company, Insomniac CEO Ted Price, when recently asked, called him "an instrumental part of Resistance: Fall of Man... one of the most creative programmers I've ever met."

What is it that drove Fouts to leave his job at one of the most successful independent developers in the country and strike out on his own, and why through XNA Community Games? The answers may surprise you.

 

[joker454]

What is it that drove Fouts to leave his job at one of the most successful independent developers in the country and strike out on his own, and why through XNA Community Games? The answers may surprise you.

Thanks for the link! It was interesting to me because I've also been contemplating exiting games and doing my own thing so that when we do have kids I'll actually be able to watch them grow up. Pretty cool that he went ahead and did his own thing, now he can see his wife and baby whenever he wants. I hope he follows up with info on how sales went, was it profitable, was the process painful, etc. I read the Braid post mortem and he really didn't seem happy with the overall XBLive experience, it would be nice to get a second opinion.

 

[makattack]

I read the Braid post mortem and he really didn't seem happy with the overall XBLive experience, it would be nice to get a second opinion.

I haven't seen Jonathan Blows XBL postmortem... I can't find it on his blog, is it somewhere else? The week after the release of Braid, he seemed happy with the response, at least.

This is an interesting "back to roots" trend in game development. It seemed like ancient history now when software was identified by the developers or architects. EA even once promoted their games that way. Eventually, games were identified by the publishers or studios/development houses. I think this represented the large teams involved in titles. There were rare occasions when leads/PMs/architects were identified/known in name.

Now, it seems with the Creators Club, there's an opportunity for single person / small team efforts to be sustainable (hopefully). I'm excited by this; although, I have not hopes of ever becoming known -- I am happy to play with my own console based sandbox.

I'd love to see more name recognition and success for developers like Jonathan Blow, Nathan Foust, and joker454

Edited to add some criticism of MS' pricing policies for Creators Club & XBL Arcade games:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/downloadable-games-are-under-priced-says-weapon-of-choice-dev