New XNA FAQs

I think some people are seriously underestimating what Microsoft is exposing itself to if it allows community games to be bought for points. I don't see it feasible for the hundreds or thousands of community members to be bound under contracts that would be necessary to protect Microsoft.

What if your game infringes patents?
What if your game infringes copyrights?
What if your game stops working?

I could keep going, but those questions have completely different answers for freely download content versus something Microsoft made money off of. Free content would get removed once a violation was found. But what if Microsoft netted hundreds of thousands of dollars off of a game that has a violation like one of these?

You've gone to the other extreme..

I'm not saying MS should offer all XNA games for points but merely that it would have been nice had they offered a model for 'premium' XNA content along side the free stuff..
Even if you're restricted to local distribution (aleviating the need for localisation) it would be better than nothing and a nice intermediary step in between setting up shop as a proper dev house & getting a publishing contract & dropping out freeware..)
 
Depends on where/who you are.. Do you think someone like Silva could have found private investment for a game like DishWasher without established credentials..?

Not a doubt in my mind he could, if he really wanted to.

I never said it would be easy, but saying publishing something on XBLA/PSN is far beyond an ambitious developer is not true. I seem to recall that the investment for XBLA was about $100k. Not a small amount of money, but finding 10 investors willing to put in $10k is not impossible, especially if you are good.

I must admit the eBay for games sort of thing is very appealing, but I just don't see it being feasible.

I'm not saying MS should offer all XNA games for points but merely that it would have been nice had they offered a model for 'premium' XNA content along side the free stuff..
Even if you're restricted to local distribution (aleviating the need for localisation) it would be better than nothing and a nice intermediary step in between setting up shop as a proper dev house & getting a publishing contract & dropping out freeware..)

I understand what you are saying.
 
Well under the current conditions, if Dishwasher is published by MS, then I think Angelmorph stands a good chance that his game could make it too. That said, the annoying thing here is that you are going to make an investment, and then it is entirely up to Microsoft, and their efficiency to deal with potentially many requests, if and then when the game is commercially available. That makes any kind of personal investment a lot more complicated and risky.
This is the same for pretty much any creative endeavour unless you're established. If you want to write a book, you write it with no knowledge of whether someone will publish it or not, but until you've written it you can't offer it to them in the hopes they will. If you want to get into 3D graphics, you need to create a demo reel, spending a lot of time and effort, with no guarantees you'll be accepted for a place at the job you want. If you want to be a singer/song-writer, you have to write the songs before anyone will publish you - you can't say to a music company 'please give me a contract because I'll be great'! And indeed, having a publishing deal is no guarantee of making money. You could invest 6 months in creating a game, have a publisher take it up, float it on a download service, and find its unpopular and doesn't reimburse you enough for your effort. It's a gamble of risks versus potential gains.

I think the real focus of the professional side to XNA is university students. They have the time to invest, and it's what they want to do. XNA gives them a chance to showcase themselves, and from there to land positions in the biz. Without this platform, they'd have to go the webgame route with less, or at least more complex, opportunities to convert interest in the product to a product being sold. flOw was online for how long? How much money would That Game Company have made without being taken up by Sony and given the opportunity? Wouldn't it be beneficial for like developers to have the exposure of releasing to a YouTube games service, where players would rate it highly, it'd float to the top ten, and eager publishers scouting for the next big thing would have it brought to their attention without them either having to randomly come upon it from gaming blogs links or whatever?
 
I never said it would be easy, but saying publishing something on XBLA/PSN is far beyond an ambitious developer is not true. I seem to recall that the investment for XBLA was about $100k. Not a small amount of money, but finding 10 investors willing to put in $10k is not impossible, especially if you are good.
I think that's asking too much of bedroom developers! Marketing yourself and drumming up investors is a whole different skillset to developing games, and if you're already wanting these developers to handle programming, art, sound, and everything themselves, asking them also to be business entrepreneurs is asking more than most mortal men can manage! The Holy Grail of homebrew is simplifying it, so people with talent to develop games aren't being locked out of getting anywhere because they lack the money to get their games produced, or lack the knowhow to publish themselves, or lack the training to be able to work the business side. Authors have agents who handle all the yucky, boring business side of writing books leaving them to be creative - totally opposite skillsets. Homebrew game development ought to offer something similar, letting the creative types be creative.
 
This is the same for pretty much any creative endeavour unless you're established. If you want to write a book, you write it with no knowledge of whether someone will publish it or not, but until you've written it you can't offer it to them in the hopes they will. If you want to get into 3D graphics, you need to create a demo reel, spending a lot of time and effort, with no guarantees you'll be accepted for a place at the job you want. If you want to be a singer/song-writer, you have to write the songs before anyone will publish you - you can't say to a music company 'please give me a contract because I'll be great'! And indeed, having a publishing deal is no guarantee of making money. You could invest 6 months in creating a game, have a publisher take it up, float it on a download service, and find its unpopular and doesn't reimburse you enough for your effort. It's a gamble of risks versus potential gains.

I think the real focus of the professional side to XNA is university students. They have the time to invest, and it's what they want to do. XNA gives them a chance to showcase themselves, and from there to land positions in the biz. Without this platform, they'd have to go the webgame route with less, or at least more complex, opportunities to convert interest in the product to a product being sold. flOw was online for how long? How much money would That Game Company have made without being taken up by Sony and given the opportunity? Wouldn't it be beneficial for like developers to have the exposure of releasing to a YouTube games service, where players would rate it highly, it'd float to the top ten, and eager publishers scouting for the next big thing would have it brought to their attention without them either having to randomly come upon it from gaming blogs links or whatever?

You'll never hear me say that XNA is a bad thing.

However, there are some flaws in your logic. I can in fact write a novel, publish the first chapter for free online, open a pay-pal account and have people wire in money to be able to read the rest. I could even open up a credit card number and have people donate money should they care to. Same for mp3 etc. and for the mp3 situation there are in fact already several sites that take care of practically everything for you in that respect.

And last but not least, there's the shareware and trial versions for software and games and it has been there for a long time already.

I think that might also be a good first step for Microsoft - offer users an option to donate points voluntarily to authors of XNA games.
 
However, there are some flaws in your logic. I can in fact write a novel, publish the first chapter for free online, open a pay-pal account and have people wire in money to be able to read the rest.
And how well are you going to do as a complete unknown in getting enough people to see your manuscript that the percentage who pay to read more justifies the time and effort in writing it? How well could you do with this model if 10,000 other people are using the same method and you become just another name in the ocean of choice?

Making money from an endeavour is different to earning a living from it! You can publish your own software with PayPal payments to download. It could even be a great game/app. If no-one visits your website though, your market is so small that it doesn't matter how good the game is. You only need to go on Tucows or similar sites and look up applications to see the zillions of competing products. Creating a product is only part of successfully making money from it. Selling it is just as important, and where you can't guarantee making money even with a finished product, a work-in-progress is far less likely to generate considerable interest that'll lead to decent ROI.
And last but not least, there's the shareware and trial versions for software and games and it has been there for a long time already.
This IMO is where XNA is maybe headed. The versions of quality titles that appear here would be cut-down, more like demos, with developers only investing the full effort when they landed a full contract. You reduce outlay to a fraction of the full experience, and where it'd still be a risk of making nothing back, it'd be less of a risk than making a full game and finding you're unable to sell it. this is equivalent to writing the first three chapter of your novel and sending it with a synopsis to agents and publishers. If they accept it, you do the work. If not, you've wasted that time creating those chapters but haven't wasted the time creating the entire book!
 
Sorry to bring this up again, but in my user-created content thread, I posted the following in response to ONE...

Straight from the FAQ at Creators.XNA.com forums...

XNA Community Games FAQ said:
Q: Can I sell my game on Xbox LIVE Community Games? What is the revenue split?
A: We are still finalizing the business models and revenue sharing details of Xbox LIVE Community Games at this time. More information will be available closer to the retail consumer launch this holiday.

They also have been talking about it in the sticky thread about Community Games.

One thing that I'd like to add though is that the XNA team originally had planned an XNA Game Studio Professional SKU. It has since been scrapped, but some parts included in XNA Game Studio 2.0 and other features will be included future releases. Check this out...

http://forums.xna.com/thread/51218.aspx

The Zman @ XNA Forums said:
1) http://forums.xna.com/thread/10376.aspx the idea behind professional changed, there is no such product any longer. Some of the ideas ended up in GS 2.0. The remainder of things such as achievements etc are now a small library that you get if you get a XBLA publishing agreement (AFAIK there is no additional cost beyond the XBLA costs)

Just realize that this Professional SKU was a means to use XNA Framework to make commercially released XBLA game. This still doesn't touch on the possibility of developers themselves charging for Community Games.

Personally, I think Microsoft will try to offer some method for developers ala shareware/donations, etc. I understand that Microsoft themselves making money off that transaction is sticking point by some, but I understand how Microsoft might charge a transaction or listing fee in addition to a possible commission. eBay has been doing it since the beginning. I don't see any difference here.

Anyway, further discussion about "will they" or "won't they" is just farting in the wind. I'm sure they'll have more details sometime during the beta.

If you still have concerns, post a message on their forums. Try the "Games Publishing/Business" forum. They're really good about posting timely replies.

Tommy McClain
 
About making money from game that infringes copyrights: please note that law is equally buggy in US as everywhere else. MS can charge hosting fees and make money out of it, not out of content itself. Just like escorts charge for time, not for sex. It's all up to lawyers I guess.
 
I think that's asking too much of bedroom developers!

Well it was supposed to be a light hearted jab at the remark archangelmorph made, point being someone with high ambitions wouldn't be sitting on their ass waiting for some publisher to show up at their doorstep and give them 15% of the sales. But it missed the mark, apparently by quite some distance.

Going way off topic, anyone that can't market themselves is going to have alot of problems going anywhere, whether they be self-employed or work at EA.

ConayR said:
About making money from game that infringes copyrights:

Publishing contracts always have entire sections on indemnification and limitation of liability for copyright and patent violations. I think they might just have a purpose.
 
This is not the thread for it, and has already been discussed:

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1132366&postcount=27

In return for the more realistic but still commercially viable lower rate, you get a variety of services for free that would've cost you plenty and would previously have presented a barrier to entry. Worldwide [game] ratings, localization, etc. It's a good deal. Unless you think saying M$ makes you clever, in which case I'm sure it will suck."


Those links don't get down to the matter at hand which was the royalty rates. This is not a thread for you to derail with half-information and fud that has been clarified (as best as possible) and discussed already in the thread above. This is not a vs. thread to push your or competitor's agendas. This is a thread for XNA.

http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2008/02/xbla_royalty_rate_changes_clos.php
http://www.jakeworld.org/JakeWorld/...08.xml&key=23/02/2008 12:54:28 PM&#AnchorHere

[UPDATE: veteran programmer Jake Simpson also takes on the subject, suggesting "publishers still get the 70/30 split" and that "a rate of 35% going up to 45% based on sales [for first parties] has been put in place", particularly noting:
"MS is obviously attempting to steer indies to publishers, because then their certification requirements are considerably less (in so far as a publisher will do pre-cert to make sure you only need one certification submission, not many), and publishers deal with the indies instead of MS having to."
He also claimed of the changes: "So it's either go to a publisher and have to fight hugely to own your own IP, or take what little MS have and pray to god that you make enough to break even and fund the next game, not something particularly attractive to a small indie.
 
As mentioned in the Console Technology forum, the Creator's Club Beta is live. You'll now be able to post your XNA games for peer review. I haven't got a subscription to the service, but I'm a user on the site. I'll probably join once I get some extra cash. If anybody's already a member, I'd like to see your opinions of the whole process.

Tommy McClain
 
As mentioned in the Console Technology forum, the Creator's Club Beta is live. You'll now be able to post your XNA games for peer review. I haven't got a subscription to the service, but I'm a user on the site. I'll probably join once I get some extra cash. If anybody's already a member, I'd like to see your opinions of the whole process.

Tommy McClain

That's great, I didn't know they were going to get the beta going so quickly. I'm a member, but unfortunately my current project is nowhere near ready for submission yet. :cry:
 
I thought only US members could submit to the beta but apparently not..

I would try out the submission process but my game is no where near ready for that yet..

On another note..

The timed demos they released a while back of a load of XNA developed games (including The Dishwasher) have for some reason suddenyl become active again..

I've been playing the Dishwasher demo for the past few months now while every time i load it up it says "you have 0 days remaining"
 
Price plans announced for Community Games

Looks like Microsoft finally announced their business plans for Community Games. Community Games will no longer be free. Premium Creator's Club members will have to set a price point: 200($2.50) MS Points for 50mb, 400($5) or 800($10) MS Points for 150mb or larger games. Creators will get a check for up to 70% of the revenues every quarter. The currency is U.S. dollars and then converted to your local currency.

Check out the rest of the FAQ here:

http://creators.xna.com/en-us/XboxLIVECommunityGames

Tommy McClain
 
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Here's some additional details...

How does a title’s rank get determined and displayed on the console and Web site?
As part the bold new Xbox experience, the Community Games store front will be an easy-to-use addition to the existing marketplace when it launches on Xbox LIVE. Consumers will be able to view community games on Xbox.com, watch trailers, and even play a trial of each game before buying as a simple way to discover fun and quirky titles.

I was worried about the lack of free games. But they way they use "trial" makes it seem it's not like on Live Arcade where the demo is always free. They're probably time-limited.

Will delisted Xbox LIVE Arcade games have the option to move to Xbox LIVE Community Games?
Those interested in doing so should initiate that conversation with their account manager.


How long will Creator's Club games stay around?
We currently have no plans to delist or remove any game successfully approved by the community and listed in our catalog. Inappropriate games can still get removed of course through our abuse reporting mechanisms.

Sounds like they're still going ahead with delisting underperforming Live Arcade games. It will be interesting if some of them go ahead and move them to Community Games.

Personally I think the price points are too high and too constrictive. They should offer them in 100 MS Point increments up to 1600 MS Points. Some of the games I saw initially in the beta weren't worth downloading even for free. Let's hope Microsoft doesn't shoot themselves in the foot here.

Tommy McClain
 
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