New DOA4 Video

Well, in all fairness Lindburg (the new arcade board SEGA is using) has a 1GB of RAM, that can make a pretty significant difference, IMO, but its specs (CPU, GPU) are lower than 360s. Not saying they balance out, but there are some fairly large differences.
 
I would guess it's a timing issue. Obviously they haven't built the game from the ground up, it must be a matter of shortened timeline.

As for the artistic style argument, look at the CGI cut-scenes from the game, that's amazing stuff and looks miles better than any opf the in-game characters, and I was looking for something more in THAT direction then simply hi-res DOA characters with no jaggies and bigger levels.
 
Mefisutoferesu said:
I'm sorry, but the "it's an artistic desicion" is just a pathetic excuse by Itagaki. WATCH THE CG!! Does it look like the ingame models? NO. It's not artistic license. I'm honestly really sick of hearing that excuse, there is PLENTY of "anime-esque" or "Cartoonish" games coming out that are far better than DOA4. It's an excuse, plain and simple.

1) Team Ninja is being outright lazy.
2) Team Ninja doesn't have the resources to make the game better (be that talent, money, time, or experience... like lighting per say).
3) The XBox360 is much weaker than we think.

I can honestly only imagine it's one of those choices, and I'm pretty darn sure it isn't 1 or 3. Team Ninja has been known for nice looking games on only 2 occasions. Dreamcast and XBox. Why? Because they were by far the cleanest, easiest, and best supported architetchure in the industry (for Team Ninja's existence). I know, I'm not the first you'd point to as a fan of Team Ninja, but I'm being utterly honest and serious here. They are not the powerhouse of talent everyone thinks they are, and I'm not saying they suck, they just aren't the "we squeeze every drop of power from the hardware" kinda team. That's all just talk, and I've at times thought Itagaki talks the way he does is because he too knows this. He does his best to give his team's games as MUCH publicity as possible, and journalist and people LOVE talking about the jerk who said the crazy things and all everything surrounding him (we're doing it now). I'm betting the DOA4 engine is a patchworks job of the old DOAU engine with what revamps the time and ability the team had allowed (thus no lighting, since they really don't have much experience), but they can only do so much. Bah, you know I'm probably just ranting, so I'll just leave it at. I don't want to piss off anyone else, and I'm sure I have pissed off enough as it is. Sorry.

I agree with you on most of this but theres another option and IMO the most likely. Design decision. Working on a compressed timeframe they tried to figure what features they could complete/not complete and be GUARENTEED done in time for launch (i'm sure allard said we absolutely need a fighter on launch). Theres a chance that given all the unknowns, they minimized their risk and cut a lot of things we're all complaining about. If thats the case then they just underestimated how quickly they would be able to bring it all up on 360 hardware.

Just another possibility.
 
true.

its funny i saw pictures of the xbox360 setups in walmart and one image had "the best launch in history" or somthing of that sort...when in reality this could be the "most rushed launch in history?"
 
They could have obviously done self shadowing (as seen in the E3 video) but I wonder if they either didn't like how the game looked with it on or the performance just wasn't good enough. I could see performance being a fairly big problem considering the game's underlying engine is probably partially an Xbox port and spent most of it's development on a very different GPU.

IIRC Itagaki has been pointing towards game play updates more then anything in this version of DOA. One thing I want to see in a DOA4:U or DOA5 is near perfect collision detection that effect game play. If you watch the videos in slow motion it's painfully obvious they sacrificed collision detection in lieu of fast game play and smooth animation. When someone cracks fighting game physics we'll have a truly next gen game.

Ninja Gaiden 2 will be the game to look at for innovation.
 
Alstrong said:
I'm bitching about the lighting and shadowing. :p There is a certain lack of depth to the entire presentation. Self-shadowing would help.


I agree, though I do like their soft shadows, they could do more to 'bring' me into the action, say..... First person view, broken bones, Mini games, stamina being a factor, weapons, ect...but alas it's just the DOA series, I'm not going to buy the game.....but I do like their art direction.

I consider Itakagi an artist and I consider his DOA series a work of art. Very difficult for me to criticize such a subjective form.

Also.........In the next couple of years Sega and Nintendo's famous characters are also going to be criticised ...... take Mario for one, Should Nintendo make him more human? What about Sonic(a lifelike Hedgehog?)or Link? Do you want these characters to be lifelike or cartoon dolls? Link in a 'real' forest would look bizarre! :)
 
No one saying they have to be more life-like, but again does NOT being more life-like mean Mario can't cast a shadow on himself? Or that bright sunlight would make Mario seem slightly washed out? Or that even perhaps he'd look just as good as his CG video counterpart? For instance, Mario Sunshine. Does ingame Mario match the CG opening video Mario? If so then fine. CG is done to be representative of the level of quality they want their ingame assets to have, but couldn't realize due to whatever limitation. So, again, if CG Mario and ingame Mario are one and the same what more is there to do to realize the artistic visage that is Mario? Not a thing. BUT, if not... well, Nintendo better have a good reason, especially when someone like Retro is pulling it off with Samus.
 
Bad_Boy said:
true.

its funny i saw pictures of the xbox360 setups in walmart and one image had "the best launch in history" or somthing of that sort...when in reality this could be the "most rushed launch in history?"

I think the ps2 releasing with that fireworks game in Japan probably takes the crown.

All launch games are usually rushed.. why are people so shocked about this?
 
valioso said:
All launch games are usually rushed.. why are people so shocked about this?


It's been 4 years since the last launch, and people can forget or they didn't take notice of the circumstances of the previous launch due to age/no-interest-at-the-time etc. :p
 
Alstrong said:
It's been 4 years since the last launch, and people can forget or they didn't take notice of the circumstances of the previous launch due to age/no-interest-at-the-time etc. :p

Also i think the level of transparency the public (read:hard core gamers on message boards) has 'behind the curtain' now is ridiculous. Information is exponentially more widespread among these communities now than it was even 4 years ago. We probably assumed, but didnt know, everything during the PS2 or xbox launch that we know this time around thanks to the 'net. So i dont think people forgot, i dont think we ever REALLY knew, just heard 2nd hand.
 
EricVonZipper said:
The Character models in the DOA series are DOLL LIKE almost cartoonish, this is a conscious design decision.(You can puch, kick, throw these models and they never cut, bleed, deform, bruise or loose teeth.)

A 10,000+ triangle character is going to look very similar to a 10,000,000+ model.

For example: a Barbie doll, it's VERY difficult to tell a low poly count model to a high poly count one, there is very little detail on a Barbie doll, just eyes, mouth, nose, hair. throwing large amount of triangles at these models has a diminishing return. Barbie on the XBOX will look similar to Barbie on the 360.....or the 720.

The DOA-series characters are similar to barbie dolls, they have NO wrinkles, cuts, stains, pimples, lines, nicks, bruises, very little detail beside the eye lashes.......not sure you can see up their noses? ;) they are perfectly smooth, hence little reason to waste triangles on them.

Gears Of Wars on the other hand, is going for a more 'real' look, their character models have wrinkles, cuts, stains, pimples, lines, nicks, bones, bruises. that is CLiffy B's DESIGN CHOICE I like the charater detail in the Unreal 3 engine and don't know home much better I would desire, they are nearing the 'uncanny valley'. seeing one of these character with half their face missing from a close quarter shotgun blast is going to be disturbing.

continuing........Bugs Bunny in the DOA universe is still a cartoon character, flat shaded , low detail, shiny........................in the GOW universe Bugs has hair, cuts, wrinkles, teeth, stains, pores, ect.. a mutant freak show Bugs Bunny.

Also a 1,000 triangle rubber ball looks nearly identical to a trillion triangle ball. a Xbox 360 rubber ball will look similar to a XBOX 22 rubber ball in the year 2105.

I've noticed Perfect Dark's Joanna is headed toward the 'doll' look, very interesting.......avoiding the 'uncanny valley' is probably a healthy road.

I fear the Same DOA3 v.s. DOA4 models will start again for DOA5, DOA6, DOA7............ ;)

the point a few people, including me, were trying to express is that...
graned the models are made to such degree (doll-like) but they could've improved the other, more noticing parts of the model... like the clothes they wear or the HAIR!!!

the major thing people notice is that the lighting and shadows aren't as gppd as the other games... and those games feature a lot more things/characters on screen than DOA 4.

Lastly, Itagaki was quite a braggart when it came to his superior engine...
which quite a few think it's somewhat dismal and lacking...
 
Alstrong said:
yeah, there is the fillrate jump from 932MP/s to 4GP/s, which will take care of the 3x increase in number of pixels displayed.

IIRC the xbox texel fillrate is 1864MP/s, not 932MP/S.
 
Apoc said:
IIRC the xbox texel fillrate is 1864MP/s, not 932MP/S.


Texels != Pixels

I was only talking about pixels. It's a 4x2 PixelxTMU setup, so 4x233Mhz= 932MPixels per second, 8x233= 1864 MTexels per second.


Just adjust the clock speeds for either NV20 or NV25:
http://www.beyond3d.com/misc/chipcomp/?view=chipdetails&id=6&orderby=release_date&order=Order&cname=
http://www.beyond3d.com/misc/chipcomp/?view=chipdetails&id=7&orderby=release_date&order=Order&cname=

What you said kind of didn't make sense... Texels per second =1864 MPixels/s? ;)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
LunchBox said:
the point a few people, including me, were trying to express is that...
graned the models are made to such degree (doll-like) but they could've improved the other, more noticing parts of the model... like the clothes they wear or the HAIR!!!

the major thing people notice is that the lighting and shadows aren't as gppd as the other games... and those games feature a lot more things/characters on screen than DOA 4.

Lastly, Itagaki was quite a braggart when it came to his superior engine...
which quite a few think it's somewhat dismal and lacking...

I agree, the game engine is lacking. I would like to see better collision detection, better lighting, less reliance on scripted scenes(watch the fruit cart break in one of the movies, there is very little physics going on).

If he wanted to impress me..... have the characters do battle above a rush hour freeway with 1,000 cars.....or in a field of 20,000 cattle/monkeys/sheep/dinosaurs very much like Kameo's 5,000+ trolls.

But I do think the DOA charaters are *done*, just like Bugs Bunny or Daffy Duck, adding more triangles or better textures isn't going to make the characters more playable or 'real'.

When the PS2 arrived there were many arguments about the game graphics looking like the PS1!
These very complex multi-core next-gen systems(x360, PS3) are going to take YEARS to be fully utilized.
 
EricVonZipper said:
When the PS2 arrived there were many arguments about the game graphics looking like the PS1!
These very complex multi-core next-gen systems(x360, PS3) are going to take YEARS to be fully utilized.

I think this gen is is much easier compared to PS2 development atleast. Sony took the complaints about how hard it was working on the PS2 for real and seem to have spend much effort and time/money to make it easier.
 
EricVonZipper said:
.

When the PS2 arrived there were many arguments about the game graphics looking like the PS1!
These very complex multi-core next-gen systems(x360, PS3) are going to take YEARS to be fully utilized.
Only by small developers

What fighting game on PS2 looked only slightly better than Soul Blade or Tekken3?None

DOA2 on PS2 didnt look like a PS1 game.And neither did TTT.

Team Ninja arent supposed to be bad or small developers and XBOX360 and PS3 are way too powerful for them, to offer just a small graphical upgrade.
 
I think they simply didn't have enough time to devote to XB360 development. Also the fact that there is no other "worth" mentioning fighting game on 360, may be they ddin't feel to work that extra hard bec'se they know their game is bound to sell.

OT: Are DOA and Ninja Gaiden team same? Same members?
 
Mefisutoferesu said:
I'm sorry, but the "it's an artistic desicion" is just a pathetic excuse by Itagaki. WATCH THE CG!! Does it look like the ingame models? NO. It's not artistic license. I'm honestly really sick of hearing that excuse, there is PLENTY of "anime-esque" or "Cartoonish" games coming out that are far better than DOA4. It's an excuse, plain and simple.

1) Team Ninja is being outright lazy.
2) Team Ninja doesn't have the resources to make the game better (be that talent, money, time, or experience... like lighting per say).
3) The XBox360 is much weaker than we think.

I can honestly only imagine it's one of those choices, and I'm pretty darn sure it isn't 1 or 3. Team Ninja has been known for nice looking games on only 2 occasions. Dreamcast and XBox. Why? Because they were by far the cleanest, easiest, and best supported architetchure in the industry (for Team Ninja's existence). I know, I'm not the first you'd point to as a fan of Team Ninja, but I'm being utterly honest and serious here. They are not the powerhouse of talent everyone thinks they are, and I'm not saying they suck, they just aren't the "we squeeze every drop of power from the hardware" kinda team. That's all just talk, and I've at times thought Itagaki talks the way he does is because he too knows this. He does his best to give his team's games as MUCH publicity as possible, and journalist and people LOVE talking about the jerk who said the crazy things and all everything surrounding him (we're doing it now). I'm betting the DOA4 engine is a patchworks job of the old DOAU engine with what revamps the time and ability the team had allowed (thus no lighting, since they really don't have much experience), but they can only do so much. Bah, you know I'm probably just ranting, so I'll just leave it at. I don't want to piss off anyone else, and I'm sure I have pissed off enough as it is. Sorry.
Took the words out of my mouth. :LOL:
 
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