Multiplatform considerations of Microsoft/Nintendo/Sony

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What hardware would give developers the best chance of maintaining parity in multi-platform releases, and provide the best environment for creating killer apps?

Probably not something with Cell in it. Probably not something with Larrabee in it either, at least not in the short term.
 
What hardware would give developers the best chance of maintaining parity in multi-platform releases, and provide the best environment for creating killer apps?

Probably not something with Cell in it. Probably not something with Larrabee in it either, at least not in the short term.

This isn't something either Sony or MS would be designed their next box around though...

Each one would be wanting to get enough bang for buck to 1-up the other on performance by as big a margin as they can muster. Both platform holders will be gunning to be first to market also as that would position them as the primary "next-gen" development platform that the majority of multiplaform developers will lead on.

I'm not sure i understand the relevance of your question?

Given MS are going with ATI and will likely pull out some custom "forward-thinking" 5XXX series-like design, for their GPU and accompany it with a pretty standard off-shelf CPU, what could Sony put out in 2012 that would be able to match or exceed this in terms of performance? - Is that along the line of what you were getting at function?
 
Given MS are going with ATI and will likely pull out some custom "forward-thinking" 5XXX series-like design, for their GPU and accompany it with a pretty standard off-shelf CPU, what could Sony put out in 2012 that would be able to match or exceed this in terms of performance? - Is that along the line of what you were getting at function?

From a PR perspective it is going to be very hard to out-do what GPUs are bringing to the table--the execution units are very tight and small.

It is going to be tough outperforming a GPU at GPU work and GPUs will be picking up more CPU work like physics and be very fast at it as well. GPUs will also be more flexible and a lot of the stuff CELL is doing to help RSX won't apply (we already see this with Xenos where Xenos is doing on 235mm^2 of GPU logic what RSX at 300mm^2 @ 90nm is needing Cell to do--the GPU architectures are becoming more flexible and hence can deal with more issues more eligently).

While there may be a LOT better solutions on the horizon, I think the CPU+GPU route you mention has two major perks (a) you are gonna get "next gen visuals" out of the gate really easily and (b) major PR-flops. And you can pimp (c) "long legs" via OpenCL and such and moving more work onto the GPU silicon.

Any other design is going to put point (c) first and multiplatform devs will have a hard time getting parity with (a) and will fall behind in (b). That doesn't mean this is a worse-longterm move, but I think the GPU guys really have the market cornered. They have a proven model and immediate impact and are slowly inching in on the other markets turf.

Good graphics make up a lot of consumer experience and a lot of processing cycles. Unless something revolution hits now and proves itself between now and 2012/13 I think you bite the GPU bullet unless they can convince someone like NV to build a Cell-a-GeForce.

If I had $5B riding on this market I take the proven approach, which developed from market forces, and then make the best tools in the world and sell myself on services not pure technology.

You want the best products out the door quickest. Whatever does that you go with it.
 
Given MS are going with ATI and will likely pull out some custom "forward-thinking" 5XXX series-like design, for their GPU and accompany it with a pretty standard off-shelf CPU, what could Sony put out in 2012 that would be able to match or exceed this in terms of performance? - Is that along the line of what you were getting at function?
I don't think so I would put my bet on something like 7XXX or something in betzeen their 6XXX and 7XXX serie.
 
What I mean is something like this:

Having a more powerful system is in itself irrelevant; what matters is having better versions of popular multiplatform games, or at least not having worse ones.

And who said that "having better versions of popular multiplatform games" has any significance at all?
I'd say: "selling popular multiplatform games, no matter the quality" is enough. And I don't see anything that proves me wrong in the sales data.

There are no(t many) Lazy devs, just real devs that live in the real world. If you build a system that for 95% of developers will produce worse results than its cheaper, older competitors then you've done a terrible job of designed your system. It's your fault, and only your fault.
It's not a fault it's a filter. If you do not want lazy incompetent jerks, which happen to be 95% of all developers, to develop for your platform...
You can stay with 5% of good ones and produce good results. If 95% can do games that sell, that's good enough.
 
And who said that "having better versions of popular multiplatform games" has any significance at all?

Sony? Microsoft? It's clearly not the only factor, but they certainly value it and put great efforts into assisting developers. They think it has at least some significance.

I'd say: "selling popular multiplatform games, no matter the quality" is enough. And I don't see anything that proves me wrong in the sales data.

What are you looking at in the sales data (hardware? software?) to prove you right?

Selling multiplatform titles involves selling your platform first. Sometimes multiplatform titles can actually help sell your platform, like with EA Sports' games and Grand Theft Auto. Interesting how MS and Sony work with EA and Rockstar to try and make their games as good as possible for their platforms.

Also interesting that many successful developers work hard on platform parity for their games, which no doubt eats up some of their budget. I can't see that they'd do this if it didn't have "any significance at all".

It's not a fault it's a filter. If you do not want lazy incompetent jerks, which happen to be 95% of all developers, to develop for your platform...
You can stay with 5% of good ones and produce good results. If 95% can do games that sell, that's good enough.

Yeah, all those lazy incompetent jerks like Valve, Epic, Rockstar, Capcom, everyone at Ubisoft, EA, etc. Don't want lazy, incompetent jerks like them to develop for your platform. ;)

Good thing that programming talent and programming budget == great gameplay. I'd hate to play a great game made on a limited budget. I'll be honest, I don't even think it's possible for them to exist ...
 
Sony? Microsoft? It's clearly not the only factor, but they certainly value it and put great efforts into assisting developers. They think it has at least some significance.

I don't see any efforts from MSFT side on this, care to enlighten me?

What are you looking at in the sales data (hardware? software?) to prove you right?

Last time I've checked, we were talking about game sales, so I guess it's about software.

Selling multiplatform titles involves selling your platform first. Sometimes multiplatform titles can actually help sell your platform, like with EA Sports' games and Grand Theft Auto. Interesting how MS and Sony work with EA and Rockstar to try and make their games as good as possible for their platforms.

I don't quite get it, selling retail game with B grade bugs is now called "as good as possible"? You like to talk from "reality" standpoint, I'll tell you a secret: both MSFT and SNE were trembling from fear that Rockstar will go gold on the other platform earlier, so they cut a lot of corners just to get it ready no matter the cost and quality. This is why you get such "quality" in the final product.

Also interesting that many successful developers work hard on platform parity for their games, which no doubt eats up some of their budget. I can't see that they'd do this if it didn't have "any significance at all".

And you believe the PR talk? Let's see how Bayonetta sells, we can compare our results later. In case you don't know: PS3 version of Bayonetta is significantly worse looking than X360 one, this is why I would like to see the sales.

Yeah, all those lazy incompetent jerks like Valve, Epic, Rockstar, Capcom, everyone at Ubisoft, EA, etc. Don't want lazy, incompetent jerks like them to develop for your platform. ;)

I haven't said that, I've said that you need them to have at least some results, not best looking, but sell-able, that's ok.
 
Normalizing by install base I don't see anything that can be qualified as "not good sales".

If we were talking about platform sales (which I was), normalising software sales by install base wouldn't show you how platform sales have been affected by software quality. It certainly doesn't show how much it has influenced people to change console purchasing intentions.

That doesn't matter, if it sells good enough.

It matters if you've sold fewer consoles than you could have, or fewer copies of a game on your platform than you could have. Most people don't have multiple "HD" consoles though, so once they've purchased a system they're stuck with buying games for it, even if its games are a bit worse.

Anyway, ignoring this point for a moment, presumably if the games are selling "good enough" then your difficulty of development "filter" (not a fault) isn't working properly because these "lazy incompetent jerks" are developing for your platform when you don't won't them to. ;)
 
Only less than 5% of people care about the little technical differences between multiplatform releases this gen although that ratio is 100% in this forum. Just look at the sales of re5 or sf4. Sales of batman show that extra content trumps the little technical differences and mw2 vs sf4 sales across platforms shows controller preference and online community to be much more important.
 
I don't see any efforts from MSFT side on this, care to enlighten me?

MS has a whole technical team dedicated to examining developer code and assisting with technical issues on the platform. It isn't as high profile as Sony using E3 to trumpet the use of Sony Ninjas to help out key developers (who are kevetching) or the investment in high profile tools like Edge but MS invests a lot into developer tools (the obvious one is Visual Studio). Besides directly helping developers they obviously have a heavy hand in DirectX and best practices symposiums and even mentioned in the last year an initiation to develop some lower level code for free distribution.

Anyhow the statement that MS, "certainly value it and put great efforts into assisting developers" is factual. They may not go about it the way Sony does, but it doesn't make it any less significant. It won't make everyone happy--but neither did Sony reserving aid for big studios or withholding access to assist their own internal studios.

Your comment just shows how victim the general population is to "sensationalize" PR. It isn't that MS helping developers has never been mentioned--there are links to interviews here on the forums. But the degree of PR it receives really impacts awareness. A classic example is when Sony took the opportunity to comment on "flying Sony ninjas" out to help developers like Epic make the PS3 the best version, etc. This was PR damage control to address a bad situation--and the end result is people see Sony being the one who helps out developers, not MS!
 
Only less than 5% of people care about the little technical differences between multiplatform releases this gen although that ratio is 100% in this forum. Just look at the sales of re5 or sf4. Sales of batman show that extra content trumps the little technical differences and mw2 vs sf4 sales across platforms shows controller preference and online community to be much more important.

Yeah, we see this all the time when comparing "technical" aspects of games. We really limit technical aspects to things like rendering and totally dismiss resource investments into user experience like how does MP parties and lobbies work, are there intuitive creation and sharing tools, what sort of media tools are bundled, coop, etc. Consumers care a lot more about this stuff than does it have 2x or 4x MSAA?
 
I don't see any efforts from MSFT side on this, care to enlighten me?

I've heard their developer relations are excellent. I'm no pro (by a massively long shot), so I only use their XNA development stuff, but the tools, documentation and demo source code are all brilliant.

Last time I've checked, we were talking about game sales, so I guess it's about software.

This is the next generation console tech thread, so in my comments that you originally quoted I had been talking about the benefit (particularly early on) of not having worse multiplatform games, in terms of selling your console and making it a success.

I don't quite get it, selling retail game with B grade bugs is now called "as good as possible"? You like to talk from "reality" standpoint, I'll tell you a secret: both MSFT and SNE were trembling from fear that Rockstar will go gold on the other platform earlier, so they cut a lot of corners just to get it ready no matter the cost and quality. This is why you get such "quality" in the final product.

It's no secret that MS signed a deal with Rockstar to guarantee that they'd get GTA4 on the same day as Sony!

This doesn't mean that Sony and MS weren't keen not to look worse than the other guy.

And you believe the PR talk? Let's see how Bayonetta sells, we can compare our results later. In case you don't know: PS3 version of Bayonetta is significantly worse looking than X360 one, this is why I would like to see the sales.

I wasn't aware the devs in the console forum were spinning PR lines about the desire for version parity. I wouldn't expect Bayonetta to have a big impact on platform sales at this point in the game btw. I don't think it's likely to be a killer app.
 
Regardless, your latter point (along with the rather puzzling mindset of many on this forum) is that only MS will be looking to ensure an easily programmable platform for the next generation?!?!?!?
Given their track record you can hardly blame them. While it is true that the PS1 was easy to develop for both the PS2(in the beginning) and the PS3 were considered to be very powerful systems that are hard to program for. Based on many of the configurations people are coming up with in this thread people are expecting Sony to once again make something that is powerful but at the same time looks like a ***** to program for. With that said after what happen to them in the market this generation and the fact that their current system's engineer is no longer in a lead role, I expect them to try and make a system that many developers would enjoy programming for in comparison to what they have now. With Microsoft and Nintendo proving to have become a serious threat they need hardware that won't take developers too long to get the hang of it.
 
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If we were talking about platform sales (which I was), normalising software sales by install base wouldn't show you how platform sales have been affected by software quality. It certainly doesn't show how much it has influenced people to change console purchasing intentions.

This is pure assumption and can be countered easily by looking into Wii games and sales of their platform. Should I elaborate on this?

It matters if you've sold fewer consoles than you could have, or fewer copies of a game on your platform than you could have. Most people don't have multiple "HD" consoles though, so once they've purchased a system they're stuck with buying games for it, even if its games are a bit worse.

The whole point of "people buy consoles by comparing their graphics/technical execution" is easily countered by Wii.

Anyway, ignoring this point for a moment, presumably if the games are selling "good enough" then your difficulty of development "filter" (not a fault) isn't working properly because these "lazy incompetent jerks" are developing for your platform when you don't won't them to. ;)

It's not that you don't want, you want competent people, if they can get competent and produce good results, why not? This is a nature of filter.
 
MS has a whole technical team dedicated to examining developer code and assisting with technical issues on the platform.

This is not what I meant.
MSFT doesn't have any studio that craves technical excellence for their platform, they dropped all their internal studios and "fired" some "2nd party" ones, like Bungie.
This is what I'm talking about, MSFT only concern now is profitability and it can be achieved with multi-platforms rather easily.
Technical excellence has no meaning these days from the sales point of view, be it MSFT or SNE or anybody else.
But SNE uses their internal studios to make some unique selling point: exclusive games of unmatched quality, and "bad architecture" is really helping here.
 
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This is the next generation console tech thread, so in my comments that you originally quoted I had been talking about the benefit (particularly early on) of not having worse multiplatform games, in terms of selling your console and making it a success.

Wii

It's no secret that MS signed a deal with Rockstar to guarantee that they'd get GTA4 on the same day as Sony!

It's not a secret that every developer signs contract to finish on certain date, is this one fulfilled every time, any time? Rhetoric, you know.

This doesn't mean that Sony and MS weren't keen not to look worse than the other guy.

"Get it on shelves in time" beats everything else.

I wasn't aware the devs in the console forum were spinning PR lines about the desire for version parity. I wouldn't expect Bayonetta to have a big impact on platform sales at this point in the game btw. I don't think it's likely to be a killer app.

There is no such thing as "killer app" this generation (or next), the time of killer apps is over.
 
This is not what I meant.
MSFT doesn't have any studio that crave technical excellence for their platform, they dropped all their internal studios and "fired" some "2nd party" ones, like Bungie.
This is what I'm talking about, MSFT only concern now is profitability and it can be achieved with multi-platforms rather easy.
Technical excellence has no meaning these days from the sales point of view, be it MSFT or SNE or anybody else.
But SNE uses their internal studios to make some unique selling point: exclusive games of unmatched quality, and "bad architecture" is really helping here.
I have to agree with you. What was Microsoft graphical showcase that you can only get on the 360 in 2005? Gears of War...until the PC version was released. 4 years later what is their graphical showcase that you couldn't possibly get anywhere else other than the Xbox 360? Gears of War 2. You can't blame people for thinking the system is weak when the console manufacture does very little to make you think that it can deliver technical excellence that can not be had anywhere else.

IMO Microsoft has spent more time chasing after Nintendo and improving their services this gen than trying to out do Sony in technical excellence...at least in games that is. I really think it will play a huge role in the hardware we see next gen.
 
This is not what I meant.
MSFT doesn't have any studio that craves technical excellence for their platform, they dropped all their internal studios and "fired" some "2nd party" ones, like Bungie.

This must be a language barrier issue as this wasn't his point and your response didn't mention this point.

Sony? Microsoft? It's clearly not the only factor, but they certainly value it and put great efforts into assisting developers. They think it has at least some significance.
I don't see any efforts from MSFT side on this, care to enlighten me?

Anyhow, I think your point above is exactly the generalization and mischaracterization I was addressing. When you say:

MSFT doesn't have any studio that craves technical excellence for their platform

I think you just haven't even bothered to try their software. Take Forza Motorsport 3. It runs at a rock solid 60Hz at 720p with 2xMSAA. How many games can claim this? It has 24 environments and over 100 courses out of the box and 400 cars full modeled inside and out. Cars can be customized with hundreds of specialty parts and individually tuned.

On the technical side the game has excellent physics--but has also been designed to have very accessible (everything from single button racing and rewind--my son can beat the easy AI with single button racing--all the way up to unforgiving realistic driving models with no assists). That isn't only technical excellence but that takes a lot of vision to design the game to scale upward and downward to player skill. Essentially FM3 can be driven like an arcadish racer to a full blown sim, your choice.

In terms of technology it is designed to allow nearly unlimited rewind, replay saves/editing/uploads, photomodes, etc. Cars are not just customizable (spoilers, new rims, etc) but you can paint the entire car however you want.

Which then gets into the storefront: You can buy, sell, and gift car designs. You can rate user contributions, etc. You can also buy/rate tune jobs, design elements, photos, user videos, etc.

Most of you wouldn't consider this as part of the "technically excellence" category of a game--but that is because most of you don't don't consider an engine anything but a renderer. :rolleyes: It really comes down to investment of resources. Just looking at the online options (over 100 variables to make custom matches) where you can change scoring conditions, groupings and car selections, delays, and various penalties it is pretty clear that there has been a "technical investment" not seen in other games of the genre.

I could go on, but it is pretty obvious your blanket statement is born out of ignorance of the "technical excellence" of MS's titles. Unless of course we are limiting "technical excellence" to the renderer.

This same story applies to Halo 3. The renderer and animation blah blah blah Bugnie/MS are lazy and don't invest technically in their title. Yet their matchmaking, level editor, sharing tools, Bungie.net, theater, custom game editor, 4 player coop, 4 player MP splitscreen on/offline, etc are trivial investments that speak nothing of "technical excellence."

If this stuff was so easy we would see a ton of titles with these features standard. They are popular features among consumers, so the question is if they are so easy and of no technical issue why aren't the "technically excellent" developers throwing in 4 player coop for just the heck of it. Full gameplay replay of your campaign and MP matches with movie controls? Child's play. Allowing users to change MP rules and scoring, gun damange, health systems, etc? Yeah, we can toss it in and work at the end of the project.

This is what I'm talking about, MSFT only concern now is profitability and it can be achieved with multi-platforms rather easily.

Replace MSFT with "Every company in the world" and that would be a fair quote. But if we are trying to say "only" concern that is palpably false of any company. MS, like Sony and Nintendo, have a number of objectives and concerns that fall under the general umbrella of success.

Technical excellence has no meaning these days from the sales point of view, be it MSFT or SNE or anybody else.
But SNE uses their internal studios to make some unique selling point: exclusive games of unmatched quality, and "bad architecture" is really helping here.

And MSFT (and whoever) doesn't try to make unique selling points in their exclusive software?
 
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