MS: "Xbox 360 More Powerful than PS3"

[jvd]

Well that was a long time ago... We constantly adapt as we learn what makes this thing tick...

We are definately not using FP16 HDR anymore, Marco implemented a cool method to get the same results using INT8. Faster and with MSAA, Winner

1080p? could still happen but I reckon 720p will be the standard but we will see. Just can't see us burning precious memory, fillrate and bandwidth for something only a few people can use...

what do you think of fp10 as a good trade off ?

 

[mckmas8808]

I’m not sure this will answer your question, The FlexIO within the PS3 uses unidirectional signal channels; meaning the read & write channels are separated. This in theory provides less latency and less chance for error among the read & writes. As far as I know the Xbox 360 still uses the common bidirectional bus system found in today’s PCI-Express based PCs.

Why isn't anybody confronting this guy's last couple of post? Is this stuff true that he is saying?


Also is this true too that he posted? If so what is the difference in having 5GB/s of to the southbridge instead of having 1 GB? Does this even matter? Again are these numbers true?

System Memory Configuration & Bus System (Break Down):

PS3: Memory Configurations & Bus Systems
256MB XDR System Ram: 25.6GB/s
256MB GDDR3 VRAM: 22.4GB/s
CELL to RSX: 35GB/s (20GB/s write + 15GB/s read)
CELL EIB: 300GB/s peak
CELL FlexIO Bus Bandwidth: 76.8 GB/s (44.8 GB/s outbound, 32 GB/s inbound)
RSX to Memory: 48GB/s Effective (can access both XDR & VRAM simultaneously)
South Bridge: 5GB/s (2.5GB/s upstream + 2.5GB/s downstream)


Xbox 360: Memory Configurations & Bus Systems
512MB GDDR3 Unified Ram Design (Xenos to Ram): 22.4 GB/s
Xenon Internal Bus: 1.5GB/s
Xenon to Xenos: 21.6 GB/s (10.8GB/s read + 10.8GBs write)
Xenos to EDRAM: 32GB/s
10MB EDRAM Internal Logic: 256 GB/s
South Bridge: 1GB (500MB upstream + 500MB downstream)

 

[zidane1strife]

Well anything slower than the fastest IS too slow ;-)

Heh, I think it's more of a concern of whether it'd be within the viable gaming range, aka 30fps or 60fps.

 

[Titanio]

Also is this true too that he posted? If so what is the difference in having 5GB/s of to the southbridge instead of having 1 GB? Does this even matter? Again are these numbers true?

They're true, yes, IIRC. The southbridge takes care of your IO, pretty much. PS3 has a lot more IO possibilities than X360, and thus requires more bandwidth. AFAIK, it has to take care of the Bluray drive, HDD, the 6 USB ports, the removeable media slots, the wifi, the Gigabit switch, the bluetooth etc., so they have to make sure there's enough bandwidth there for all that.

 

[scificube]

Eh as i said , never had luck with sony products .

Well...I only have a Sony HDTV. It works so I gues that's a good experience I guess.


Moderator: Post edited because of user stupidity...

 

[mckmas8808]

They're true, yes, IIRC. The southbridge takes care of your IO, pretty much. PS3 has a lot more IO possibilities than X360, and thus requires more bandwidth. AFAIK, it has to take care of the Bluray drive, HDD, the 6 USB ports, the removeable media slots, the wifi, the Gigabit switch, the bluetooth etc., so they have to make sure there's enough bandwidth there for all that.

Okay thanks for that info. That makes sense. But what about this stuff? Is this info real too?

System Memory Configuration & Bus System (Break Down):

PS3: Memory Configurations & Bus Systems
256MB XDR System Ram: 25.6GB/s
256MB GDDR3 VRAM: 22.4GB/s
CELL to RSX: 35GB/s (20GB/s write + 15GB/s read)
CELL EIB: 300GB/s peak
CELL FlexIO Bus Bandwidth: 76.8 GB/s (44.8 GB/s outbound, 32 GB/s inbound)
RSX to Memory: 48GB/s Effective (can access both XDR & VRAM simultaneously)
South Bridge: 5GB/s (2.5GB/s upstream + 2.5GB/s downstream)


Xbox 360: Memory Configurations & Bus Systems
512MB GDDR3 Unified Ram Design (Xenos to Ram): 22.4 GB/s
Xenon Internal Bus: 1.5GB/s
Xenon to Xenos: 21.6 GB/s (10.8GB/s read + 10.8GBs write)
Xenos to EDRAM: 32GB/s
10MB EDRAM Internal Logic: 256 GB/s
South Bridge: 1GB (500MB upstream + 500MB downstream)

 

[jvd]

the problem mckmass is he put effective numbers for the ps3 and real numbers for the xbox 360 .

Makes it look better than it actually is

 

[ROG27]

You can tap-dance around the issue all day long if you want. The fact is the best confirmed realtime stuff for both systems are completely and totally comparable.

On one hand you have stuff like Mass Effect, Gears of War, Too Human, and Chromehounds, on the other you have stuff like MGS4, Mobile Suit Gundam and Heavenly Sword.

If you really think that the best realtime stuff we've seen so far is not pretty much on par, I would suggest that's your own BIAS.

KZ was CG, the mere fact you would even mention it speaks volumes to me about your level of objective reasoning.

The reason I clumped KZ CG with the others is because devs recently have stated that we will be surprised by the level of quality of the final realization of the game as compared to the target render. That, coupled with what we've been hearing about Motorstorm and what we know about MGS4, and I think there will be a significant leap (not vast by any means, of course, but still significant). I agree that there is not much of a significant difference now as far as visuals. Notice I didn't say anything about visual assets, but rather I was talking about quality of animation, physics, and simulation. [10,000 ft above the ground vantage point] I think PS3 has a competitive advantage in the CPU area because of capacity for parallelism. When you compare for parallelism, you get 8 completely hw independent threads for CELL vs 3 completely hw independent threads for Xcpu. Thus, CELL can be running 8 simultaneous programs at once while Xcpu only 3 (not accounting for complexity of such because I'm sure CELL's progs are limited in scope), not to mention Xcpu will be wasting some of its power decompressing data because of limited space on the 360's removable medium [/10,000 ft above the ground vantage point]. Use of the cpu to run simulations, in general, should just be more practical on the CELL. I think this to be the differentiating factor for immersiveness in the next-gen. Thus, I think the perception of PS3's demos as having a more immersive quality is due to the aforementioned quality of animation, physics, and simulation. This quality can be attributed, in some ways, to the hardware IMO.

PS. I am being optomistic...I am certainly not naive, however, and I understand there is a possibility PS3 will not live up to expectations. My complete lack of brand loyalty, however, will allow me to enjoy the best experience afforded by the system I find to most match my needs.

 

[BTOA]

Well that was a long time ago... We constantly adapt as we learn what makes this thing tick...

We are definately not using FP16 HDR anymore, Marco implemented a cool method to get the same results using INT8. Faster and with MSAA, Winner

1080p? could still happen but I reckon 720p will be the standard but we will see. Just can't see us burning precious memory, fillrate and bandwidth for something only a few people can use...

So I guess DeanoC will have it his way. HS running 60FPS with this new trick.

 

[3roxor]

So I guess DeanoC will have it his way. HS running 60FPS with this new trick.

I thought DeanoC said their target was 30FPS

 

[BTOA]

I thought DeanoC said their target was 30FPS

No, he said he would like to have HS running at 60FPS. But with this change in the game engine, it'll probably do 60FPS when it launches.

BTW, OT: but that DeanoC comment about HS not doing FP16 will probably have ******s run around the net spinning it into something bad.

 

[TurnDragoZeroV2G]

BTW, OT: but that DeanoC comment about HS not doing FP16 will probably have ******s run around the net spinning it into something bad.

Well, that's what they're there for. Hopefully they fall in a hole, along the way. But, with fp16 suddenly looking to be somewhat less necessary... win for developers, as usual. Who isn't curious about what ATI and NV are thinking, though?

 

[Titanio]

No, he said he would like to have HS running at 60FPS. But with this change in the game engine, it'll probably do 60FPS when it launches.

Depends. I wonder if Deano or nAo could share where the bound currently is in the game? Or where they expect it to be when all is said and done? That might give you a better idea if this change will help the framerate or not..

 

[nAo]

Quality versus speed. In this case quality = percision, however adding AA certain is going to improve the visual quality in a different way.

Quality/precision is not affected at all, in fact I discovered several cases where FP16 falls short of precision while the color space we're using is doing a much better work.
Nonetheless there are other trade offs, hardly ever in this world you have win-win situations

To be honest I think FP 16 will be a waste for most games to use, considering how the over whelming majority of fixed pixel LCD televisions can't display the same range of colors as a plasma or tube TV.

Agree, but at the same time I can't see any GPU out there which supports a HDR storage format that takes less space than 64 bits and still has an acceptable quality in the vast majority of cases.
In the end it's a IHVs fault..they can do much better than this from a technical standpoint.

 

[ralexand]

No, he said he would like to have HS running at 60FPS. But with this change in the game engine, it'll probably do 60FPS when it launches.

BTW, OT: but that DeanoC comment about HS not doing FP16 will probably have ******s run around the net spinning it into something bad.

No, with these changes you would hope that the game runs a 60fps.

 

[weaksauce]

BTW, OT: but that DeanoC comment about HS not doing FP16 will probably have ******s run around the net spinning it into something bad.

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=24056891

:smile:

 

[nAo]

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=24056891

:smile:

Complete madness

 

["Nerve-Damage"]

Why isn't anybody confronting this guy's last couple of post? Is this stuff true that he is saying?

Dude before I post anything here; I at least check my facts six or seven times, and sometimes doing the math (equation) just make sure things add up. And by the way I do own an Xbox 360 and I love it. But that doesn’t mean I have to ****** protect any system when facts are facts.

Also is this true too that he posted? If so what is the difference in having 5GB/s of to the southbridge instead of having 1 GB? Does this even matter? Again are these numbers true?

Titanio is correct with his answer........

 

[Dave Baumann]

There needs to be clarification, based on how the arrows are drawn in the diagram:

No, the arrows in the diagram are the clarification - they were drawn in a way to convey their operation.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

No, the arrows in the diagram are the clarification - they were drawn in a way to convey their operation.

So my interpretation was correct....correct?