Microsoft upset over leaked images of the 360

[Brimstone]

Plus.. throw in that MS according to rumors will have supply capacity of X 360 as: 20% of low end X360 @ $299 and then 80% premium w/ HDD and stuff for $399. You're either forced to go high end or you're screwed with the low supply of the low spec. X360.

WHAT?


You can update the base model with a hard disk! A person isn't screwed at all by the entry level console. For an online game console, you really need a HDD for real functionality. For those that aren't intrested in online, I think it's a nice option to be able to purchase a console without the HDD because they will see less benefit from the HDD. The money they save they can put towards games instead. Later on if they get cable/dsl and decide they want to go online they can upgrade their console with a HDD. I thought it was fantastic when Sony offered a HDD.

 

[AlNom]

I guess by showing a render and not the console, they can get some feed back from gamers on the design of the consoles shell.

Are physical designs finalized that close to launch? or even closer?

 

[function]

MS want to separate the concept of providing a mass storage unit from that of providing the base console, so they can shift the focus of paying for this from them (as part of manufacturing the system) onto the customer. They get out of the unenviable position of having to pay a lot for a part which doesn't add much or any value to the system in the eyes of many consumers, and which costs an increasingly large proportion of total manufacturing costs as time goes by. You don't need to worry so much (or at all) about dropping the cost of peripherals over time.

They can put more money into the silicon, and be better able to drop the console's manufacturing costs over time.

Ironically, by focusing attention on the HDD in this manner it will probably add more percieved value to the Xbox brand than the "free" HDD in Xbox that most people were largely unaware of or didn't see the point in. $100 for what is effectively a pretty compact, ultra-large memory card doesn't seem so bad, especially when it gives you custom soundtracks (if you don't have a networked PC), unlimited saves, disk caching and large scale ability to store downloaded content.

Why would you *not* want one (unless the extra cost over console + memory card really was just too much of a stretch)? If MS are doing an 80/20 split of packages at launch, I'm sure they've done their research.

What size HDD does that look like anyway? Too small to be a 3.5 inch platter (unless Xenon is much bigger than Xbox). 2.5 inch maybe? They'd be costlier than the kind people seem to be making (pretty pointless) comparions to in your typical PC.

 

[Confidence-Man]

Hmm, let's see. Microsoft launches two consoles, one with a hard drive and one without. The hard-drive versions are ready to go Live and that's where new vistas of money-green mountains await (for Microsoft, not us). We'll be charged for annual subscriptions and microtransactions up the ying-yang for everything from new levels to Xbox dating services.

Which model does Microsoft want you to buy? Right. How will they get you to do that? I don't want to say they'll put out half-finished games, but there's every chance they could ship a racing game with 12 tracks and save another 12 for Live purchasers to download for free or an extra cost.

This sounds like little more than MS-hating nonsense.

They will most certainly make the HDD package more attractive initially, as it's the hardcore fan, the Live subscriber, the early adopter who's going to be buying it first.

They will most certainly not be shafting the majority of potential buyers out of half a game or whatever, especially since that's the very audience they're going after this time.

 

[Kolgar]

This sounds like little more than MS-hating nonsense.

I really dislike it when people are so quick to paint others as "So-and-So Hater" or lover. But thank you anyway.

I'm saying, correctly, that Microsoft is tired of taking a bath in this market. Naturally, they're looking for any and all ways to recoup their costs and make money this time around, whether it's "microtransactions" or whatever.

And they're sure as hell going to steer people toward the hard-drive model and Live and all the profit-maximizing products and services they can. Microsoft isn't in this business for altruism.

Are you a big fan of Microsoft? You seem pretty trusting of them. Personally, I think a little healthy cynicism is a good thing these days, not just toward megacorporations like Microsoft, but toward everything. I've nothing at all against Bill Gates & Co., but I'm not fooling myself that they only have my best interests at heart.

They will most certainly not be shafting the majority of potential buyers out of half a game or whatever, especially since that's the very audience they're going after this time.

Perhaps I was more careful in my wording than you were in your reading. I said:

I don't want to say they'll put out half-finished games, but there's every chance they could ship a racing game with 12 tracks and save another 12 for Live purchasers to download for free or an extra cost.

... and I don't think it's that so utterly implausible. It's already been done with games like Splinter Cell and PGR2, where Live users could download new levels and cars. They're doing it for Halo 2 now, and users have to pay for those levels.

If Microsoft wants to push the hard drive and Live - where the real money is - they could simply offer downloadable content for most games. If the content is attractive enough, people will bite the bullet and buy it.

Is it fair? Yes. Is it a clever way to maximize profits? You bet your poopy pants it is.

 

[jvd]

Well i dunno guys .


The hardrive is a notebook sized drvie. So i would guess it would be pretty expensive. If they threw on a screen and mp3 play back features and only sold it at 100$ they would steal the market from everyone

 

[Carl B]

Well i dunno guys .


The hardrive is a notebook sized drvie. So i would guess it would be pretty expensive. If they threw on a screen and mp3 play back features and only sold it at 100$ they would steal the market from everyone

But how do you build an mp3 player w/screen around a 2.5" hard drive? That thing would be enormous! Certainly wouldn't be anything the iPod crowd would envy.

 

[jvd]

that is true for the ipod but it wouldn't be much bigger than the dell mp3 players and some of the creative ones .

 

[Carl B]

Well, just like the standard iPod's (not the minis), the Dell and Creative full-size players use 1.8" drives. A 2.5" drive would be a considerable jump to the large side. Of course, maybe Microsoft is using a smaller form factor drive than even the 2.5" - like indeed a 1.8". In that case though, I don't even want to think about the losses they would be eating for a 40GB 1.8" drive Xpod at $100.

 

[jvd]

The new dells may be 1.8 but i know the older ones and some of the creative ones are much bigger than my pod . Though that may be casing

 

[AzBat]

I think you guys need to quit thinking of hard drives as being platters and spindles. They get back into the same problem they had last time. They need a technology that they can control and not be at the mercy of hard drive manufacturers like Seagate, Western Digital, etc. What do you think the M-Systems agreement was for? Just for memory cards? That would be an even bigger waste.

Tommy McClain

 

[Carl B]

I think you guys need to quit thinking of hard drives as being platters and spindles. They get back into the same problem they had last time. They need a technology that they can control and not be at the mercy of hard drive manufacturers like Seagate, Western Digital, etc. What do you think the M-Systems agreement was for? Just for memory cards? That would be an even bigger waste.

Tommy McClain

I've been thinking about the M-Systems deal a lot lately. On one hand, maybe nothing came of it... I doubt that. On the other hand, maybe M-Systems will be supplying the rumored large in-system cache for the 360. And of course, the other, more-likely possibility is that they are providing the 'hard drive.' This is honestly my original theory for drive - though I still don't know if it would be condusive to any sort of 'XPod.'

Anyway here's a LINK to the relevent portion on the M-Systems site. Microsoft is absent on the partners list, but I'm sure that's of Microsoft's own choosing.

Some relevent specs from the site:

Wide Range of Fast, High-Capacity Flash Disks

Solid-state flash disks (non-volatile memory)
2.5" & 3.5" standard form factors
SCSI (Ultra320, Ultra Wide and Narrow) and ATA/IDE interfaces
Slim packages: down to 8mm case height
Standard connectors: 40, 44, 50, 68 and 80 pins
Up to 320.0 MB/sec burst R/W rates
Up to 45.0 MB/sec sustained Read rate
Up to 40.0 MB/sec sustained Write rate
Access time <0.02 msec
Up to 176GB capacity
Hot swapping support (hot insertion)
Sanitize/Purge/Declassify in seconds

Top Reliability & Endurance

99.999% reliability
>700,000 hours of actual (in the field) MTBF
Embedded EDC/ECC, based on BCH Algorithm
Data integrity under power-cycling
TrueFFS® technology: bad blocks mapping-out and dynamic wear-leveling algorithms
> 5,000,000 Write/Erase cycles; Read unlimited
5-year warranty

Highly Rugged

No moving parts
Operating temperature: -40°C to +85°C
Storage temperature: -55°C to +95°C
Operating altitude: +80,000 feet
Operating shock: 1,500G per MIL-STD-810F
Operating vibration: 16.3G RMS per MIL-STD-810F,
(Random, 20-2000Hz, 3 vibrations axes)
Humidity: 5% to 95% relative, non-condensing

I personally think we'll be given something similar to THIS

 

[mech]

Did you guys see the hybrid flash/magnetic hard disks that were announced the other day, with Microsoft's backing?

 

[PC-Engine]

Kolgar thinks SONY's PS3 will be $300 with Blu-ray and a HDD. What planet you live on dude? I think it's time to put down that PSP and get back to reality.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

If these measurements made by IGN are correct, I think the harddrive has to be smaller than 2.5".

http://xbox.ign.com/articles/607/607265p2.html

 

[Confidence-Man]

... and I don't think it's that so utterly implausible. It's already been done with games like Splinter Cell and PGR2, where Live users could download new levels and cars. They're doing it for Halo 2 now, and users have to pay for those levels.

A few extra maps is just that, extra; a far cry from a game shipping half-finished as you suggested. Besides, these downloads are for multiplayer. You telling me that the average, non-Live subscriber's experience is "crippled" by not being able to download two extra multiplayer maps for Splinter Cell? If not, what makes you think it will be next-gen?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I personally think we'll be given something similar to THIS

I've mentioned prices before. They're no longer listed at M-Systems from what I can see, but the first retailer I googled is here...
http://www.web-tronics.com/25idefasflas.html
1 Gigabyte FFD = $1,250

Now tell me we're gonna see 20/40 gigabytes made out of this stuff in XB360

 

[Kolgar]

Kolgar thinks SONY's PS3 will be $300 with Blu-ray and a HDD. What planet you live on dude? I think it's time to put down that PSP and get back to reality.

No way, I'm not putting it down!

I've no idea what Sony will do, but I think it views Microsoft as its most serious threat, so I wouldn't be surprised if it looked at what MS is doing and then adapted its plans to deliver a knockout punch.

Then again, being the market leader, Sony seems to feel that it doesn't need to worry so much about what the competition is doing. We'll see, but I think that's mostly PR talk and they'd really like to put a swift end to the Microsoft threat.

I agree, Blu-Ray and a hard drive is extremely unlikely. I'd rather see them put more RAM in the machine, if they can even afford to do that.

 

[Kolgar]

A few extra maps is just that, extra; a far cry from a game shipping half-finished as you suggested.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear, or perhaps you're blowing my statement out of proportion. I'm in no way saying Microsoft is going to start shipping half-finished games. I'm saying that if they're serious about converting large numbers of Xbox2 users into Live subscribers, one way to do that would be to offer new, downloadable content for nearly every game. If the content is significant enough - several new maps, new weapons, whatever - non-Live users will begin to feel they're missing out and more will convert to Live.

Besides, these downloads are for multiplayer. You telling me that the average, non-Live subscriber's experience is "crippled" by not being able to download two extra multiplayer maps for Splinter Cell?

I was referring to the first Splinter Cell. Those maps were for the single-player campaign. I don't know about 2 and 3. As for PGR, I was under the impression that the new cars could be used in the single-player game as well. Whether or not that's true is really beside the point.

Microsoft won't ship games "crippled" - your word, not mine - but by offering attractive downloadable content, they could make Xbox users an offer they can't refuse.

So gamers get (potentially vastly) expanded games, and Microsoft collects more Live subscriptions and microtransaction fees. It's just smart marketing, and it's probably what MS needs to do if they want a profitable console business, but in the end, some gamers could feel like they're being nickeled and dimed to death.

Will it happen? Who the hell knows. But it very well could.

***edit***

My apologies to Confidence-Man. I did indeed use the word "crippled" in an earlier post. Though it was not to suggest that Xbox 360 games would ship crippled, but rather that the Xbox 360 experience would be crippled for buyers of the non-hard drive version. Which I think it may be, as Live offers a lot and I think MS is going to make it a lot more valuable and desirable - even necessary to get the full enjoyment of some games - next gen.

 

[London Geezer]

Here's hoping Bungie has higher resolution models and textures somewhere in their hard drives, cause Halo2 on a big screen at 720p/1080i with the same textures will look like a blurry mess. Just sharper. And let's not even get into the geometry issue.