Microsoft upset over leaked images of the 360
- Thread starter carpediem
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The Value Pack is only $50 more. At least about that. Amazon shows it at 26,040 yen, while the non-VP is 20,790. 5250 yen is about as close to $50 as you can get. I'm not sure if those are precise retail values at this point, but it was announced and launched at 19,800/24,800 so it hasn't changed much even so.
Regardless, the Value Pack isn't worth $50 either. Until Sony stops BSing around with the packaging out here, I'm not even going to bother looking. It's foolishness--especially since they didn't force-launch that way in Japan and aren't going to in Eurpoe.
Regardless, the Value Pack isn't worth $50 either. Until Sony stops BSing around with the packaging out here, I'm not even going to bother looking. It's foolishness--especially since they didn't force-launch that way in Japan and aren't going to in Eurpoe.
Aren't they? AFAIK it's value pack only over here, when it eventually arrivescthellis42 said:
I didn't mind paying for a value pack because high-capacity memory sticks are in short supply here and the 32MB pack-in got me through until I could find a decent-priced 512MB. I wanted the Spider-Man 2 UMD anyway, I didn't own a pair of earbuds (glad I have them even though I usually wear a decent pair of headphones anyway), and the case, it turns out, actually does its job pretty well. I've looked and looked, but haven't found another case I really like, save possibly the Aero case, which I've ordered from Lik-Sang for a pittance.
Back on topic, I think Microsoft should call the base, non-hard-drive Xbox "Xbox 180" because it's an about-face from the company's philosophy with Xbox. With the 360 (or should we call it "Xbox $399"?
), it seems Microsoft has turned themselves around full-circle and eventually found their way forward again. Too bad about that $299 detour, though.
Back on topic, I think Microsoft should call the base, non-hard-drive Xbox "Xbox 180" because it's an about-face from the company's philosophy with Xbox. With the 360 (or should we call it "Xbox $399"?
), it seems Microsoft has turned themselves around full-circle and eventually found their way forward again. Too bad about that $299 detour, though. Keeping with the slightly OT nature of this thread, I got my PSP from liksang and it was the value pack. The buds are dreadful quality and the remote is not much better. The clear trigger buttons on the PSP are also poor. If your buying the JPN PSP you won't miss much is you go for the budget pack bar for a 99p set of phones.
Acert93,
No matter how many "facts" you look for, there is still no absolute guarantee that Microsoft will do better with Xbox2. I'm in no way saying that it doesn't look good, hence my wording when I said:
...while I'm not quite sure what Microsoft can realistically expect... 20 million?
I wasn't implying that Microsoft is going to loose marketshare, nor that they will gain - it was just a number thrown in there that I thought was a reasonable figure to suggest. Regardless if that number is 25 million or even 30 million, I think the more fundimental point you're missing is that Sony would be clearly expecting to have sold quite a bit more units than any of their competitors after those 2 consecutive wins.
Lets recap what we do know at this point and which situations may result out of them:
Look, I'm the first to admit that things aren't looking bad - but at this point, it could go either way for Microsoft. After all those promises from Nintendo with the "Dolphin" - who would have thought they'd sell less? Nintendo had done many things right (more mature content, more 3rd party support, Resident Evil franchise EXCLUSIVE, lower price, better hardware) - and yet they still failed to move anywhere near the amount the sold during the N64 days. Who would have thought.
And here are you, pointing to some facts which admittedly paint an optimistic picture, but is still far off from guaranteeing a better marketshare (or to word it better: much better marketshare). At this point, all that matters is what Microsoft is expecting - and considering that they are
1.) concerned about costs
2.) don't know what their competitors have up their sleeve
3.) are launching first; therefore are the first to gamble
I expect them to be quite reasonable in what they're expecting to sell - which would also be a factor in how much they invest in the hardware. We already have one rumour in that it's going to be DVD only - which already shows that they're cutting corners and ARE concerned about costs. It also means that they'll have more money to spend elsewhere (RAM etc) - but at the end of the day, they still have a strategy and a plan of how many units they want to have sold in the long run to turn a profit/break-even to make the product a success. IMO it's clear they won't be designing hardware that will "easily" sell 50 million and only break-even after 40M with the tie-in-ratio of at least x:y.
I'd argue that's what they did with the Xbox and it didn't turn out too well in the end.
DISCLAIMER: numbers are imaginative of course, you can replace them if you want - the point is, Sony would have very different numbers since they know they have strong mindshare, the brandname and the confidence that they'll succeed again (if they actually do is of course no guarantee, but we're talking about calculated risks here and Sony is in no doubt in a stronger position expecting more).
The final and main resulting question is: if Sony is confident enough to take a higher (calculated) risk than Microsoft - how much more are they willing to pack in to their hardware and what kind of an advantage would that yield? I'd say quite a bit, considering they're gambling with very different numbers than either their competitors - and they've shown that they're ready to do it, as they done so already with the PS2 (huge losses at the beginning). On the other hand, I'm not betting anything on that, as they might be too confident and not risk anything at all - a gamble in itself, which is of course a possibility as well. I don't think that's all too likely though.
Acert93 said:
No matter how many "facts" you look for, there is still no absolute guarantee that Microsoft will do better with Xbox2. I'm in no way saying that it doesn't look good, hence my wording when I said:
...while I'm not quite sure what Microsoft can realistically expect... 20 million?
I wasn't implying that Microsoft is going to loose marketshare, nor that they will gain - it was just a number thrown in there that I thought was a reasonable figure to suggest. Regardless if that number is 25 million or even 30 million, I think the more fundimental point you're missing is that Sony would be clearly expecting to have sold quite a bit more units than any of their competitors after those 2 consecutive wins.
Lets recap what we do know at this point and which situations may result out of them:
- Microsoft is concerned about losses
therefore, they may be expecting/hoping for about 40 million units, but I doubt they'll be betting on such numbers. If one of their main concern is cost, then they should be prepared to deal with less units sold - 20, 25, 30 million. You take a pick. It's all about taking calculated risks.
- Xbox2 may not be the most powerful hardware
- at least as by consumer perception. This generation, many bought a xbox in believing to have the best/most powerful hardware - will those same buyers go for a weaker xbox2 knowing PS3 is around the corner? If yes, who else besides hardcore gamers and Halo fans will rush to get Xbox2?
- Sony's hype -> possible Dreamcast scenario?
never underestimate the mindshare of your biggest competitor and the hype it can generate. We've seen what happened back when Dreamcast launched early: despite PS2 looking much better in its beginning stages, it crushed its competitor thanks to massive hype and the necessary early support from many developers. Sure, Sega had management problems, limited money going from them, but contrary to that, they also had an incredible strong fan base which still allowed them to sell a respectable amount of units in that first year. I don't see Microsoft's position in being all that different: strong little fanbase, a bit of negative perception by the masses perhaps (hey, it's a Microsoft after all), big and strong 3rd party support? We'll see. All also depends on what Sony does in this time and what they can show (= will they really have better hardware to show off?)
- Other factors, such as micropayment, backwards-compatibilty etc
In the end, other important factors is how Microsoft will market their console and how successfully. Not everyone wants micropayments - some are more concerned about backwards-compatibility than others. Heck, not having a next-generation medium might be a factor too. It all depends how Microsoft will go to market and grab potential supporters into believing that their money is best spent on THEIR product. How well Microsoft does that is all up to them, the market and the competiton (Sony).
Look, I'm the first to admit that things aren't looking bad - but at this point, it could go either way for Microsoft. After all those promises from Nintendo with the "Dolphin" - who would have thought they'd sell less? Nintendo had done many things right (more mature content, more 3rd party support, Resident Evil franchise EXCLUSIVE, lower price, better hardware) - and yet they still failed to move anywhere near the amount the sold during the N64 days. Who would have thought.
And here are you, pointing to some facts which admittedly paint an optimistic picture, but is still far off from guaranteeing a better marketshare (or to word it better: much better marketshare). At this point, all that matters is what Microsoft is expecting - and considering that they are
1.) concerned about costs
2.) don't know what their competitors have up their sleeve
3.) are launching first; therefore are the first to gamble
I expect them to be quite reasonable in what they're expecting to sell - which would also be a factor in how much they invest in the hardware. We already have one rumour in that it's going to be DVD only - which already shows that they're cutting corners and ARE concerned about costs. It also means that they'll have more money to spend elsewhere (RAM etc) - but at the end of the day, they still have a strategy and a plan of how many units they want to have sold in the long run to turn a profit/break-even to make the product a success. IMO it's clear they won't be designing hardware that will "easily" sell 50 million and only break-even after 40M with the tie-in-ratio of at least x:y.
I'd argue that's what they did with the Xbox and it didn't turn out too well in the end.
DISCLAIMER: numbers are imaginative of course, you can replace them if you want - the point is, Sony would have very different numbers since they know they have strong mindshare, the brandname and the confidence that they'll succeed again (if they actually do is of course no guarantee, but we're talking about calculated risks here and Sony is in no doubt in a stronger position expecting more).
The final and main resulting question is: if Sony is confident enough to take a higher (calculated) risk than Microsoft - how much more are they willing to pack in to their hardware and what kind of an advantage would that yield? I'd say quite a bit, considering they're gambling with very different numbers than either their competitors - and they've shown that they're ready to do it, as they done so already with the PS2 (huge losses at the beginning). On the other hand, I'm not betting anything on that, as they might be too confident and not risk anything at all - a gamble in itself, which is of course a possibility as well. I don't think that's all too likely though.
pahcman said:
Chap, I'm only addressing this post because it was halfway literate and slightly less aggravating than your usual. Keep it up, it's an improvement.
The answer is, I'm a critical bastard and I tend to call them as I see them. Right now, I'm a little underwhelmed by what I know about Microsoft's new console. This is Microsoft, for God's sake. I expected them to take me, Sony, and the rest of us to school.
Granted, it's still early and I may still be impressed on many levels. But right now I'm skeptical.
If by "tactics" you're referring to the forced upsell of gamers from the PSP to the value pack and from the base 360 to the hard-drive model - I guess it boils down to market sense. I was willing to shell out 250 clams for a PSP, but I'm not about to pay 400 for a game console with a hard drive when I bought one last gen for 200 and it still didn't give me as many great games as a certain other console without a hard drive.
Didn't they learn anything from Sega and Saturn? I still think $299 is the magic price point - any more and you're going to get the hardcore gamers and early adopters, but that's all.
I know Microsoft wants to turn a profit on Xbox, and it deserves to. But it still bothers me that this time, they're making me pay extra for something they included before.
Plus, I think it's stupid that they're fragmenting their install base. I also think Microsoft is going to be pushing Live in a big way, and that people who get the base model are going to miss out on a lot of features and content - a lot more than Live currently offers. To put it bluntly, I'm concerned the hard drive is an "option" that won't be optional at all if you want the full Xbox experience.
That's my unknown right now - to what lengths will Microsoft go to make Live a must-have? Because that's where there's gobs of money to be made. Will they offer great downloadable content for every game? That'd be swell, but then you really need the hard drive to get full enjoyment from the system and it sucks that you have to pay extra.
Heaven forbid, would they ever hold out a great weapon or character from the retail release and offer it later via Live? I hate to sound cynical, but this is big business and sometimes companies do things to make money even if they aren't ideal for their customers.
Basically, I feel that Microsoft really got burned by its Xbox losses and it's hellbent on making buckets of cash this round. I feel it's not coming out as scrappy and hard-hitting as I wanted to see. And maybe it's unfounded, but I feel that its attitude has changed. Instead of courting me and trying to win my business by giving me their best at a price I'm willing to pay, they've got one eye on their balance sheets while they dig deeper into my wallet and dream up new ways to microtransaction me to death.
This last is probably unfounded, and I hope it's not the case. I'm still trying to process all of this, but the bottom line is, right now, I'm not willing to pay $400 for a console and I don't want a stripped-down model, either. So they lose me for now - and I'm disappointed because I was looking forward to it.
I can't imagine Live! requiring an HD, mind. Personal settings will surely be kept on the central Live! services so that appear on your PC too. As an optional extra for downloadable content an HD is good, but again maybe not essential if you have decent sized memory cards.
I don't think XB360's HD is a backdoor peripheral that everyone will buy, and is expected to. I think is offering a choice for those that just want games to get a more affordable console, and those who really want to make the most of Live! and customizability to get the HD too.
I don't think XB360's HD is a backdoor peripheral that everyone will buy, and is expected to. I think is offering a choice for those that just want games to get a more affordable console, and those who really want to make the most of Live! and customizability to get the HD too.
Everyone keeps harping on about all the PS2 sales, but I'm curious as to how many PS2 would have sold if they'd actually made it more durable and of a higher standard so that they don't keep breaking?
Just anecdotal, but I'm on my 4th PS2, and almost everyone I know that has a PS2 has owned more than one.........maybe m$ should just make the 360 so that it breaks after 13months?
Just anecdotal, but I'm on my 4th PS2, and almost everyone I know that has a PS2 has owned more than one.........maybe m$ should just make the 360 so that it breaks after 13months?
UKt@xman said:Everyone keeps harping on about all the PS2 sales, but I'm curious as to how many PS2 would have sold if they'd actually made it more durable and of a higher standard so that they don't keep breaking?
Just anecdotal, but I'm on my 4th PS2, and almost everyone I know that has a PS2 has owned more than one.........maybe m$ should just make the 360 so that it breaks after 13months?
Awww bless! I miss the old "Ps2 breaks easily that's why Sony sold so many!" arguments!!!
UKt@xman said:Everyone keeps harping on about all the PS2 sales, but I'm curious as to how many PS2 would have sold if they'd actually made it more durable and of a higher standard so that they don't keep breaking?
Just anecdotal, but I'm on my 4th PS2, and almost everyone I know that has a PS2 has owned more than one.........maybe m$ should just make the 360 so that it breaks after 13months?
It's funny that you mention that, because everyone I know have a PS2 since launch, still working fine and unreplaced to this day.
Seriously, my own PS2 has a defect laser (doesn't read CD-ROMs anymore), but with the amount of dust it collected (had it in a dusty area) and I never cleaned the lense, I'm not surprised and I think it could have been easily avoided with a bit more care. Still runs good enough for a launch PS2 (over 4 years old) and good enough in running Linux....
I too have a launch day PS2 that is working p e r f e c t l y with all games working without any crashes whatsoever.
...what I've heard of xbox on other forums... well, that's not on topic but let's just say there were way more stories of breaking xbox drives, hd's than PS2's there ... and let's not get into that "faulty power cable" thing
...what I've heard of xbox on other forums... well, that's not on topic but let's just say there were way more stories of breaking xbox drives, hd's than PS2's there
... and let's not get into that "faulty power cable" thing I think I must have missed those arguements?london-boy said:UKt@xman said:Everyone keeps harping on about all the PS2 sales, but I'm curious as to how many PS2 would have sold if they'd actually made it more durable and of a higher standard so that they don't keep breaking?
Just anecdotal, but I'm on my 4th PS2, and almost everyone I know that has a PS2 has owned more than one.........maybe m$ should just make the 360 so that it breaks after 13months?
Awww bless! I miss the old "Ps2 breaks easily that's why Sony sold so many!" arguments!!!
Sorry, but I was just looking at purely anecdotal evidence, and wasn't aware that this had been discussed (to death?) previously. So I take it this isn't the case with anyone else then, and that I've just been particularly unlucky?Unlucky? Could be.
I think a lot of broken PS2s are the result of poor maintenance. This may or may not be the case with you... I'm just saying.
I live in the U.S. and bought a PS2 on launch day - Oct. 26, 2000. It worked perfectly until I traded it in for a new, slim PStwo a couple of months ago. At which time the guy at EB just about busted a nut over how clean and pretty it was.
"My God, this thing's immaculate!" he gushed. And then went on and on about how he'd never seen anything like it, and how he felt like he was insulting me by even testing to make sure it worked, and man, I even had all the original packaging and booklets and everything.
Hey, it's electronics, people. They don't like dust and dirt, nor do they thrive as a result of neglect or abuse. Take care of them and they'll take care of you.
I think a lot of broken PS2s are the result of poor maintenance. This may or may not be the case with you... I'm just saying.
I live in the U.S. and bought a PS2 on launch day - Oct. 26, 2000. It worked perfectly until I traded it in for a new, slim PStwo a couple of months ago. At which time the guy at EB just about busted a nut over how clean and pretty it was.
"My God, this thing's immaculate!" he gushed. And then went on and on about how he'd never seen anything like it, and how he felt like he was insulting me by even testing to make sure it worked, and man, I even had all the original packaging and booklets and everything.
Hey, it's electronics, people. They don't like dust and dirt, nor do they thrive as a result of neglect or abuse. Take care of them and they'll take care of you.
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