Microsoft To Introduce "Consumables"

Why do we expect upgrades to be free in the first place?

Because thats how they were in the PC model?
This wasn't talking about upgrades. This was talking about consumables - things that you use up during your play of the game and need to buy more of. That amounts to a continuous need to pay more money to continue the game, depending on how the devs have worked it. Paying for new mods is fair as your paying for someone to work at creating those mods. Paying for consumables is ridiculous because these consumables are just bits in a computer. You press a button and you can create 1,000,000 GP. This isn't the real world we're talking about here where everything takes effort to create. You have to make an effort to write a game that uses up resources, and adding 1 box of ammo or 100 boxes of ammo requires only a numeric input, unlike the real world where 100 boxes of ammo takes 100x the workload and would need to be charged more for. If there's a Sword of Mighty Tree-felling that the developers included in the game, they could release one into the game world and sel it for $100, or just as easily leave it as an item at the end of a quest where every player gets to own one. In the price<>demand model, computer games can only create a totally artificial demand model as it's easy to provide enough of an item to satisfy everyone - items are only rare because the devs choose to make it so.

So essentially, they're saying 'the game is designed for you to do A-B-C, but if you pay us some extra, you can skip B'.
A-B-C should be fun! If it's a chore but you charge for the player to skip it, there's an incentive not to elliminate these chores but to leave them in and earn some cash on the side. If the game was fun and people enjoyed playing it, why would they want to buy items to make it easier and end their game faster? Also the comments (or rather article, as we don't have MS's actual statement) weren't targetted at MMOs. Those games have their own mad economies, but most games don't. You don't have people selling items on Halo or CON for real cash. Most games aren't designed for such microtransactions. The moment you enable that easily for developers, you're encouraging them to give it a go. They're businesses and will seek to make money wherever possible in the main. So Halo 3 could add an Uber weapon and keep ammo for it rare, where you have to buy it for Live! points. If there wasn't this microeconomy system in place they'd instead just have you looking for the ammo and balance the game based using ammo availability to limit your use of the weapon. One way you have the devs needing to think about the weapon and balance it to add to gameplay, and the other way they throw it in and charge users to use it however they want. One way is trying to create a good game experience, and the other requires less effort and charging people cash to decide their own game experience.

The chances of games being wholesalely ruined by charging for consumables is slim, but the chances of more and more games adding incentive for users to part with cash for what has always been mostly a matter of game balancing is definitely there. It's not going to make gaming a better experience and isn't a move designed to improve games. If MS left this out we wouldn't have to concern ourselves with it, but adding this feature now we have to worry about what way our favourite franchises go. If GOW cost $100 in the store, would you buy it? If it cost $50 on the store but you're charged $1 for every 50 shots and the cost will run up to $100, will you buy it? That latter event is going to be hard to measure the moment you buy a game, unlike a flat subscription fee. You don't know what the running costs will be. Let's just hope this consumer selling is limited to a handful of games. Although if it makes those companies lots of money, I can't see why other would ignore it.
 
This seems more like microsoft wants to cover every angle on the marketplace but I could be wrong. If this becomes big though that could be a bad thing.
 
I hate to say "I told so", but here's what my chrystall ball told me 09-Mar-2005
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=425028&postcount=35
About the misrotransactions.

From Allards' presentation it can be understood these microtransactions would be possible also between player - player, not just player - MS or player - game publisher.

I think there'll be some kind of "Live Credit" micropayment service, where the credit is like a currency inside MS Live, not real money.... you know, similar to those services that already exsist elsewhere.

The player gains say 100 "Live Credits" initially on xb2 purchase and logging into Live.
If you want to get for example a new game level, custom car, soundtrack... it could cost you something like 10 or 100 Live Credits depending on the content. You can buy more Live Credits with real money, maybe 10 Live Credits at $0.99.

There'd be other ways to gain those credits too. like competitions etc.,
but you'd also be able to sell stuff inside Live to other players, like your own customized and tuned cars, rpg character equipment...
When you want to sell for example a Lv5 Troll Repelling Pink Sword inside a rpg, you'd be able to to put it in auction, like eBay inside the Live and that rpg. The palyers of that rpg would see that item inside a shop that happened to be closest to your character in game with a value the game has calculated for it, or which you might have set yourself.
A player might eventually buy it for 256 credits, and you'd get maybe 60% of what was paid for it (the rest would go to the shopkeeper in the game, and as taxes for the evil ruler of the gameworld)

The "Live Credits" could also be used to buy games, music and even hardware inside Live.
 
this has actually been around for awhile. look at cell phone games. they give you 2 options one to buy the game and another to rent the game for an alotted time. it can also be used for mmorgs allowing the developers a chraging enviroment system for MMORG games.

but i am against it if, it short hands us gamers
 
That amounts to a continuous need to pay more money to continue the game,

Not at all. They are simply shortcuts to get what you could otherwise recieve by playing the game. They are no different than a cheat code that gives you 99 lives, or 9999 gold, they are not necessary and do not force you to pay anything.

Of course it's possible to create a situation where you are being forced to pay to continue the game, but that's certainly not what MS is alluding to in their current descriptions of consumables, and I see no reason to believe this will happen as it just seems like a recipe for disaster.
 
Exactly. And I'll just have to hope they don't all 3 enable this nonsense.
Why did you read one word of my post and skip the rest? That's rather rude. MS is providing the toolset that developers and publishers want. They're providing it because Live is more monolithic than other services. I doubt Sony or Nintendo need do anything to enable such a revenue stream because their services are more open and developer-specific. Sony is already doing consumables through SOE.

So again, and please read it this time, complain about the developers and publishers. It's not MS's place to force everyone away from microtransactions and consumables for your advantage. If you want to effect change, you do it. Stop lamenting that you can't get others to do it for you.
 
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Not at all. They are simply shortcuts to get what you could otherwise recieve by playing the game. They are no different than a cheat code that gives you 99 lives, or 9999 gold, they are not necessary and do not force you to pay anything.

Of course it's possible to create a situation where you are being forced to pay to continue the game, but that's certainly not what MS is alluding to in their current descriptions of consumables, and I see no reason to believe this will happen as it just seems like a recipe for disaster.

So having to pay to use cheat codes is perfectly fine for you? If its a single player game then hat notion is just ridiculous. Cheat codes should not be charged for as they never have been before because there was never any reason. If it is a multiplayer game then it is down right despicable to allow such nonsense that will unbalance the game.

If you think this will only be for MMORPG's think again. Its going to spread like a plague. Everyone wants more money and they will try to get it no matter what.
 
So having to pay to use cheat codes is perfectly fine for you? If its a single player game then hat notion is just ridiculous. Cheat codes should not be charged for as they never have been before because there was never any reason. If it is a multiplayer game then it is down right despicable to allow such nonsense that will unbalance the game.

I doin't really care as I can't remember the last time I actually used a cheat code. And it's up to the developer, I'm sure many games will still have built in cheats and unlockables like they always have.
 
Why did you read one word of my post and skip the rest? That's rather rude. MS is providing the toolset that developers and publishers want. They're providing it because Live is more monolithic than other services. I doubt Sony or Nintendo need do anything to enable such a revenue stream because their services are more open and developer-specific. Sony is already doing consumables through SOE.

So again, and please read it this time, complain about the developers and publishers. It's not MS's place to force everyone away from microtransactions and consumables for your advantage. If you want to effect change, you do it. Stop lamenting that you can't get others to do it for you.

First of all I just said I'm not going to buy systems that enables (and by its very nature support) these rip off microtransactions. So how exactly is that me not doing anything for myself and trying to get others to do it?

As for it not being Microsoft's fault, what happens if you put a kid in a room full of candy, tell him not to eat it, and shut the door? Hes going to eat the candy. Microsoft may not have said to rip people off, but since the publishers and developers will be wanting that candy they are definitely going to try to get it.
 
I doin't really care as I can't remember the last time I actually used a cheat code. And it's up to the developer, I'm sure many games will still have built in cheats and unlockables like they always have.

So just because it's up to the developer, its perfectly fine that they charge you for this? It doesnt matter that its up to the developer or not. Let's say they make you pay each time you turn on the game and enable the cheats. Is it ok then?
 
What if they eat your first born child?

Poor analogy, because you are following his improper premise. That consumables are taking something away that you would currently have for free.

When in actuality, consumables are giving you the option to purchase something that you wouldn't normally have any means of getting (except through the course of normal game play).

A better analogy would be, what if they gave you the opportunity of buying a child rather than having to go through all the hassle of having sex.

Which lead's to Shifty's statement that "B" (In the course of A-B-C) should be fun. Like sex. However, while having sex can be fun, it can also be a chore. Anybody who has actively attempted to have a child can attest to that. Sex for the sake of sex is fun. "Fishing" for the sake of fishing is fun. Spending 10 hours fishing because you need to catch 75 of them to sell them for the gold you need to purchase the trinket you need to continue in the game, isn't fun.

Here's $2 dollars, give me the gold, so I can buy the trinket and keep playing the game. I'll spend the other 9hours and 55 minutes of my life doing something else, thank you.
 
I'm simply pointing out how ridiculous it is to propose a company would charge you every time you turn on the machine. You can come up with nightmare scenarios all day long, that doesn't mean they are realistic.
 
And I was pointing out that this system of nickel and diming you is going to progress and be more aggressive in getting your money. And I'm not talking about the consumables only in my posts I'm talking about what will eventually happen. To think greedy people wont increasingly abuse a new system is naive.

And as for the $2 for gold to save 9 hours. If you compare that to wow gold it will run you more like $100 to buy stuff that consumes that much time to normally get. Just google WoW gold to see what that stuff costs. Yes the developers will charge less, but they have to keep the economy balanced somehow. And if you know how economics works then that balance will come from price since they can only sell so much.
 
And I was pointing out that this system of nickel and diming you is going to progress and be more aggressive in getting your money. And I'm not talking about the consumables only in my posts I'm talking about what will eventually happen. To think greedy people wont increasingly abuse a new system is naive..

They will only be able to abuse it as much as the market allows.

If they begin removing too much from their games, it will negatively impact sales, and they will have to change their approach. I just don't see this being a major source of revenue, relative to game sales, so I think publishers will still concentrate on making the retail game as good as they can so they can sell as many units as possible, that's where the real money is.

The most successful DLC's to date are just over $1,000,000, that's less than 17,000 copies of the retail game.

btw: You're extremely paranoid if you think MS is going to have $100 DLC's like WOW. Also, if you read the comments by the guys in charge of MS's Xbox Live development, they are currently working on an open market for gamers to trade items among themselves, that will probably be done sometime in 2007/2008. That will be a self-regulated market, where you will probably be able to buy things you are alluding to, for MMO's, at whatever price the market demands.
 
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And as for the $2 for gold to save 9 hours. If you compare that to wow gold it will run you more like $100 to buy stuff that consumes that much time to normally get. Just google WoW gold to see what that stuff costs. Yes the developers will charge less, but they have to keep the economy balanced somehow.

*cough*

And considering it went from $0 last generation to already $1,000,000, they will just keep trying to make more. Even pc gamers are being subjected to this now as shown with Oblivion.
 
Here's $2 dollars, give me the gold, so I can buy the trinket and keep playing the game. I'll spend the other 9hours and 55 minutes of my life doing something else, thank you.
Isn't there already a problem with games that they are so imbalanced to date we have these chores to do? Developers have not over 20 years of game design made an effort to elliminate the grind often needed to get access to parts of the game you've paid for, and sometimes are neccessary to continue. Wouldn't it be better if they got rid of the need for 10 hours of fishing to make the money, and provided a quicker and/or more fun way to make the money that people would enjoy spending time doing? Aren't they less likely to develop different, more fun games without the grind if there's an easy way to charge gamers for workarounds and those gamers are so fed up of grind they're willing to pay? If you think of all the moments in gaming where you've had to grind or struggle, would you rather developers had designed the game better, or provided you the chance to buy your way out?
 
This is getting funny, as if having a device in our homes that can act as a "slot machine" (p2p-pay2play) they now decided to create a virtual "slot machine" inside the "slot machine", meaning that buying a game and paying a subsription isnt more than enough, you will have near critical elements in the game that need to be purchased to have a pleasent experience for a short time!.

Microsoft and others (Sony, Nintendo, etc) should name their "Computer entertainment" systems "Home Arcade" systems... and slap a big retro 80/90s "Insert Coin" logo!

I know its up to the developer to decide their incoming fees acording to their product and not directly imposed by M$ but im affraid this is getting to common, and now getting support by M$ itself is even worse...I wont be surprised at all that another few years from here(?) we will still get articles of the likes of "The Video-Gaming business model is d00med"
 
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If you think of all the moments in gaming where you've had to grind or struggle, would you rather developers had designed the game better, or provided you the chance to buy your way out?

Of course, Shifty. The thread in the console gaming section covered this discussion rather well. The Gamer's Manifesto from PWoT covered it rather well also.

I'd much rather the game designers figure out a way to remove the tedious aspects of their game, then charge us to circumvent them.

However, one is a readily accessible solution to the problem and the other is a problem that lacks even a jumping off point for finding a solution.

I'd rather have the option to buy my way out of the problem, than not have the ablity to remove the problem at all.

You're correct in that there's a fundamental flaw in the game mechanics that requires scarcity of resources in order to control difficulty (which is essentially not difficulty at all, but rather an investment of time). But I'm sure if you could find away around this requirement, so that they could give you everything you need immediately without the reptitive and tedious tasks yet still maintain the difficulty/length of game, developers would love to hear from you. ;)
 
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