MGS2 tearing

PCEngine, you really have no place talking about MGS2 if all you've seen is one room. I don't want to repeat what others already said, but suffice to say I still consider it one of the most impressive games visually, and hell knows I've seen everything there is see when it comes to video game graphics.
 
see, some people, especially PC gamers, just can't live without super hi res textures....

and now we can say that some ps2 gamers can't live without nice particle effects, polygon counts in the tens of millions, constant framerate... and u can throw good (soft self-) shadowing too.......

this is to say that people have different tastes which is fair enough.

but tell me, would u rather have hi res textures without these effects i just mentioned or having lower than usual textures but with all those effects on??

most PC games are textures powerhouses but are just "lifeless" from certain points of view...... the ONLY PC game that has WOWed me lately was DOOM3... and that is only before i noticed how low poly it was (3 milliseconds after the last W in WOW)....

i had so many WOWs seeing some PS2 games i cant even remember.... also games for GC and XBOX, even though the WOW for PS2 games is always bigger because i'm like: WOW HOW ON EARTH DID THEY GET THE HARDWARE TO DO THAT EFFECT?!?!?!?!?!?!

u get my point?

sorry, i'm a bit bored here at work, don't really know what to do... :LOL:
 
Londen boy, while graphics come second to me , I have to say I enjoy pc games more than consoles. I love the high res and huge textures and fsaa and aniso. But I expect to play my video games at 1600 x1200 while consoles play at what 640x480. So I fall into the group that would like all effects but would rather have the higher res. Star wars galaxies is a game that has alot of fun effects in it , so did ultima online 2. The problem is they are allways developing for old video card and slow pcs. Doom 3 is meant to target a geforce 1 and radeon and a sub ghz machine I believe and be playable at 640x480. Imagine what a game would look like if they took my computer and made a game just for that . I'm running a dual athlon 2200+ 1 gig of ram and a radeon 9700 pro. I wouldn't have to sacrifice anything on a rig like that and get games that look better than x box games. To bad it wont happen for 3 years. Oh and i think high res textures and high res go together , if you took a ps2 game and played it at 1600x1200 it would look very ugly :( But I admit some games like vf4 blew me away with graphics. For me that was the first console game to look better than vf3 in the arcades.
 
played it at 1600x1200 it would look very ugly But I admit some games like vf4 blew me away with graphics. For me that was the first console game to look better than vf3 in the arcades.

Well see about that when ps2 emus come out... but if n64/psx look better in emus.... i doubt ps2 would be any worse....
 
zidane1strife said:
played it at 1600x1200 it would look very ugly But I admit some games like vf4 blew me away with graphics. For me that was the first console game to look better than vf3 in the arcades.

Well see about that when ps2 emus come out... but if n64/psx look better in emus.... i doubt ps2 would be any worse....

Sorry i should have been clear, I meant comparing it to a pc game and it not being emulated , just making a ps2 display at the res. Also the psx has no anti aliasing and i don't believe it had good texture filtering. Thats why when i would play it on bleem with my 8500 It would look better at 800x600 with 2x fsaa and 16aniso.
 
But I admit some games like vf4 blew me away with graphics. For me that was the first console game to look better than vf3 in the arcades.

VF3 is a very old game to compare to VF4. VF4 on PS2 looked worse than VF4 on NAOMI 2. It would've looked better on Xbox or GCN and closer to the N2.
 
Everyone has their own set of preferences when it comes to the attributes they find attractive in objects. This holds true for the physical beauty we see in things like a human face, the shapeliness of a sculpture, the design in a painting, or the graphics in a videogame.

The Shenmue games on Dreamcast impress me more from a visual standpoint than Metal Gear Solid 2 on the PS2. What strikes me first when I compare the two is how much more detailed and how much more clearly I can see the world of Shenmue. In Hong Kong and Kowloon, I can see buildings towering overhead all around me, the streets lined with stands and storefronts, the bins stocked with a wide variety of vegetables and merchandise, and upwards of thirty distinctly detailed characters on screen simultaneously walking and shopping about the marketplace. There's a full view distance of the environment, with no fogging/obscurity or environmental draw-in ever. In smaller environments like Scarlet Hills and Guilin, the texture resolution and integrity is turned up a notch, leading to just breathtaking depictions of nature - rich layers of foliage, sharp detail on gravel pathways, and complex striations on rocky surfaces. The way the world soaks up color from the sun, like when late afternoon brings a global, orangish glow to everything while elongating and bending character shadows over the undulating terrain, never fails to capture my awe.

To realize these kinds of environments, the Dreamcast is pushing an impressive amount of texture variety and quality while handling all sorts of effects at the same time. Shenhua's dress ripples gracefully in the wind, subtle movements of her (and any character's) face can represent a whole range of expressions during real-time conversation, the behaviors of shadows are handled incredibly over even corrugated surfaces, and crowds of NPCs from an available cast of over 1000 uniquely skinned and clothed characters can wander into view at any time. This kind of micro-detailing is set against an environment that I find second-to-none among videogames - there is no plague of "sameness" when you look around Shenmue's world. The textures on the paths you walk throughout a neighborhood or on the walls of adjacent buildings feature surpringly little repetition, each storefront at each building is fully modeled with unique detail, the shops all have their own signs and look, the canopies covering the grocers' stands sport separate patterns/designs and color schemes, etc.

It's this variety of surface detail on objects within a single area that really brings this world to life for me visually. Things are clear and have individuality - one end of a street looks completely distinct from the other end. There's no particular overall color scheme or styling - it's like a sensory overload, and I find it quite intoxicating. That's not to say that I'm ignoring some of the often glaring visual defects of the Shenmue games on Dreamcast. The NPC pop-up (fade-in, actually) is jarring at times, and the slowdown in Shenmue II can be annoying in a select few areas. Texture alaising is also a particular nuisance in Aberdeen and Wan Chai. While visible, these defects mostly get drowned out by the copious detailing and lush colors in which the world is draped.

Clarity and distinction in graphics are what immediately jump out at me, and they have a strong influence on my overall impression. The Dreamcast and Xbox have a big leg up on the other consoles in this regard. Because almost every game in their libraries can output progressively, I can play them though a VGA Box. This is a huge visual trump card to my eyes. Honestly, playing Soul Calibur at home on my Dreamcast on my 19" monitor impresses me a whole lot more than the comparatively dull display of the Soul Calibur II machine they have at my local arcade. Everything is so buttery smooth, clear, and vibrant on my monitor, but the extra geometry detail and effects of the sequel are lost on me because they just don't stand out. (I'm hopeful Namco will allow the home console conversions to support a non-interlaced output.)

Visually, I'd pick many Dreamcast games infront of some of the best-looking games from other consoles if I'm playing through my Dreamcast VGA Box. For one, as a minimum, the Dreamcast fills the entire 640x480 display. With quite a few PS2 games, I get a visible black border from the game being rendered into a slightly smaller screen space (Probably the 640x448 games... Actually, I'm not certain the exact cause for that as my TV has quite the exceptional visible screen area. One thing I'm sure of is that the image isn't as sharp as a standard Dreamcast game on those titles.) The VGA Box graphics also provide a fuller animation, as double the resolution data of an interlaced display is being sent with every update on 60fps games. The colors are amazingly rich and vibrant on my monitor, quite distinct from each other with no bleeding or loss of accuracy. Lastly, the dot-pitch on monitors is so such smaller than televisions. I actually do pick up on the appearance of pixels from a moderately-sized television display (35 inch and up) to some extent. TVs artificially stretch the projected image more than monitors, and the resulting picture elements are physically larger and more visible. If you're seated the appropriate, corresponding distance from a 19" monitor's display, it fills roughly the same view field as a big screen TV. The effect is fairly similar, and the added sharpness of playing the games on a monitor is simply eye-popping.

This wouldn't be such a big advantage for Dreamcast and Xbox if more games outputted full resolution at each update on the other consoles too. Right now, there's probably less than ten PS2 games and not nearly enough GameCube games that are VGA compatible.
 
As I recall this thread was about MGS2 tearing
And we all realized it wasnt really a problem and that PC-Engine is a little f--boy with grudge on PS2.
Now why Shenmue 1 & 2 constantly keeps being brought up whenever anyone comments on PS2 graphics, I just dont know.
This thread is over.
If you like to talk about Shenmue and playing console games on a monitor start up another thread.
PC-Engine r u still posting in this thread??!?!?!?
 
Lazy8s said:
Visually, I'd pick many Dreamcast games infront of some of the best-looking games from other consoles if I'm playing through my Dreamcast VGA Box. For one, as a minimum, the Dreamcast fills the entire 640x480 display. With quite a few PS2 games, I get a visible black border from the game being rendered into a slightly smaller screen space (Probably the 640x448 games... Actually, I'm not certain the exact cause for that as my TV has quite the exceptional visible screen area. One thing I'm sure of is that the image isn't as sharp as a standard Dreamcast game on those titles.)

The black borders will exist with consoles on non-overscanning displays as the console are designed to fit most displays and most displays overscan, the difference is in the percentage of overscan, 5% overscan is within safety margin.
 
JacksBleedingEyes said:
As I recall this thread was about MGS2 tearing
And we all realized it wasnt really a problem and that PC-Engine is a little f--boy with grudge on PS2.
Now why Shenmue 1 & 2 constantly keeps being brought up whenever anyone comments on PS2 graphics, I just dont know.
This thread is over.
If you like to talk about Shenmue and playing console games on a monitor start up another thread.
PC-Engine r u still posting in this thread??!?!?!?

Well I think I've already made my opinion known so I'm done with this thread. I'm just enjoying the aftermath as a spectator as opposed to a participant. 8)

Since the PS2 guys brought up Shenmue, I think it's perfectly fair that others are also using Shenmue as a benchmark ;)
 
Dude, it's incredibly weak that you're bagging out MGS2 and haven't even played it.

MGS2 rips the shit out of Shenmue 1 and 2 graphically. Anyone who claims otherwise is a f@nboy, pure and simple. It's got higher poly counts, and better effects. Textures in Shenmue are blurry and exhibit bad compression artifacts. Textures in MGS2 are blurry and suffer from a "sameness", but suit the mood and look good regardless. To claim that the slight advantage Shenmue has in texturing overcomes the other graphical problems (such as the horrible aliasing from lack of mipmapping) in Shenmue is misguided to say the least.

Personally, the best looking console game I've seen so far is Splinter Cell, bar none. Apart from a slightly shoddy framerate, that game is amazing. Excellent and varied textures, brilliant background detail (it feels like you're in a real world, not a programmed one), excellent model detail, and absolutely amazing effects. Great stuff.

Oh, and if Vsync tearing gets your goat - uh, why? Who cares, it's barely distracting at all, and rarely happens. Get over it.
 
*cough*...ok...*cough*

There are people who've played MGS2 and beat it and still think it isn't that impressive ;)

It's called an opinion so yeah get over it.
 
and absolutely amazing effects.
This got me intrigued. What effects exactly? Night/termo vision or something else? I really didn't see much of a game so I don't know. I've seen the level with rain, for example, and the rain looked very average.

Oh, and I expect to see PCEngine ripping Splinter Cell's gut out with the tearing problems it has, if he was so annoyed with tearing in MGS2...
 
I think the lighting in Splinter Cell is what he's talking about Marc..... there are little things in the game (like strands of plastic sheeting) that look and move frighteningnly realistic...really cool stuff.

Anyway, the reason why I brought up Shenmue was because of its development cycle, and also the reason why I asked if PC-Engine played all the way through MGS2 (and knew he didn't) is because by playing through the game, you can CLEARLY see why the game took 3 years to develop (insanely large script just for the little optional codec conversations).


One thing a lot of people fail to realize about the difference between MGS2 and Shenmue is the difference in FRAMERATE. Shenmue runs at 30 fps (with draw-in, clipping, slowdown) while MGS2 runs at a crisp 60 fps even while on the tanker w/ all the effects going on at the same time. Also, Shenmue does feature more vibrant textures but the textures in MGS2 get the job done.
 
marconelly! said:
and absolutely amazing effects.
This got me intrigued. What effects exactly? Night/termo vision or something else? I really didn't see much of a game so I don't know. I've seen the level with rain, for example, and the rain looked very average.

Oh, and I expect to see PCEngine ripping Splinter Cell's gut out with the tearing problems it has, if he was so annoyed with tearing in MGS2...

Flames and overbright lights are what immediately come to mind.

But yes, night vision and thermo-vision are also very impressive.

And the tearing from the demo is gone in the retail version - I haven't seen any yet. There might be a tiny bit (just as there was a tiny bit in MGS2 :rolleyes: ) but I haven't seen it yet.

PC-Engine said:
*cough*...ok...*cough*

There are people who've played MGS2 and beat it and still think it isn't that impressive ;)

It's called an opinion so yeah get over it.

yeah? They're probably biased trolls like you. Only the most ardent PS2 hating people think that MGS2 is unimpressive graphically.

Funny how it's when you get owned you suddenly start saying "oh it's just an opinion" - you were fighting pretty hard against other people's opinions in this thread.

And personally, I think it's a pretty warped opinion that needs correcting if you're unimpressed by MGS2 ;)
 
marconelly! said:
and absolutely amazing effects.
This got me intrigued. What effects exactly? Night/termo vision or something else? I really didn't see much of a game so I don't know. I've seen the level with rain, for example, and the rain looked very average.

The flashlights, the flire, the subtle blurring in the night vision, the glow/bloom lighting, bump mapping, the reflective surfaces, the soft-body physics, projected textures and shadows...

Aside from the rain, SC is doing a heck of a lot more in-game than MGS2 is doing. :D :D
 
Aside from the rain, SC is doing a heck of a lot more in-game than MGS2 is doing.
MGS2 had amazing rain and underwater effects (best I've ever seen), reflective surfaces, IK on all the characters, sun shimmer effect, etc. Some of the effects in MGS2 are so subtle and natural looking that many people never even notice them, they just add to the overall feel of the scene. Best example is the sun shimmer that you can see in the open areas of the Big Plant. Also, don't forget the framerate, which is at average 2x higher than in SC, before you proclaim which one of them is 'heck of a lot more'. :)

As far as effects go, I was more impressed with MGS2. I don't considered lighting and shadowing under 'effects' category, though, and SC is clearly more impressive there. However, just for the record, MGS2 also had projected shadows and per-pixel lighting in some rooms (I remember that dark tunnel, for example)
 
Splinter Cell has a better overall "look" compared to MGS2. MGS2 is more polished though.

I'm a massive MGS2 f@nboy, but Splinter Cell is definitely the better looking game for in-game action (for the most part anyway). The cut-scenes are woeful though.
 
I think both games have great overall look and it's just a matter of preferrence, what you like better. Splinter cell feels more like some kind of realistic simulation, kinda like a very well filmed documentary. MGS2 follows the visual cues from the hollywood summer blockbusters, both in cutscenes and ingame.
 
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