Metal Gear Solid 4 post:#1067
- Thread starter Ben-Nice
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My point is that Kojima could use an editor. Are you really saying that every word he's written is gold and shouldn't be touched in any way? That everything can appeal to someone is a truism in the age of the internet, that's not what we're talking about.
Finished the game. Took my 16.5hours watching all the cutscenes and comm talk in it's entirety from beginning to end. My take goes something like this.
The GOOD:
Graphics. Character model look great along with enviornments and cutscenes. Top notch presentation all the way through.
Sound. BGM, soundtrack and effects were easily the best I've seen in a game. A very good soundstage and excellent work on the surrounds.
Story. When there is so much emphasis and time spent on the story, it's going to have it's good and bad. The Snake/Liquid interaction is great along with Big Mama/Snake.
Raiden. Such a badass he deserves his own line
The articstic fluidity in his combat was just amazing to see.
Weapons. If you like guns and gadgets, this is the game for you. And they all can work. Nothing seemed useless to me.
Camera work. Never a problem and never in the way (3rd person). Even in cutscenes the camera work is great and highlights the characters amazingly well for emphasis.
The BAD:
Gameplay. While you get a large variety of guns, outside of aesthetics and stat ratings the feel was pretty much the same. The camera doesn't move as well other FPS games when in FPS view mode.
Cutscenes. Often it felt like an interactive anime series than a game. Clearly some of them were too long and unnaturally extended with verbose dialouge.
Game lenght. On my play through I wouldn't be shocked if actual gameplay was around 6-7hours with cutscenes and comm talk around 9-10hours. How about 5hours of cutscene and comm talk with 12hours of gameplay Kojima?
Dialouge. Goes from great to cheesy. And when I say cheesy, I mean late night, straight to TV, B movie cheesy. Although I think it's just a byproduct of having too much in there. It can't all be great.
AI. Enemy AI doesn't seem to exist. On Solid Normal atleast, they do nothing worth noting. If you have good FPS experience you'll never get overwhelmed or even flanked. Each area has good choke points where they'll funnel into so you can pick them off with ease.
Controls. Clunky and overly complicated. A bad combo. No blind fire and the lack of ability to cycle weapons with any consistancy takes away some of the immersion.
Facial expressions. Or lack there of. There's no fluidity in facial animations. Very stiff. The lip movment isn't very good either. With so much of it, it stands our after a while.
The UGLY:
Boss battles. Easily the worst boss battles in a game for some time. The only good and fun one being the Rex fight.
B&B. Since they made for most of the boss battles, it's expected for them to make this list but aside from that, their cutscenes/dialouge/backstories are easily the lowest points in this game. They never really fit in with the story and clearly felt tacked on for the sake of "boss battles." When you first see them in the cutscenes in the opening act you think "oh man this is gonna be cool to fight!" Then you actually fight them and there's nothing to it.
Over the top. Kojima tries too hard to make you feel bad for the characters. It's like the saddest story ever told followed by even a sadder story. If you're EMO, you'll eat this stuff up. I often found it comical.
Overall, I'd give the game a 7/10. If you're a huge MGS fan and completely buy into story then you'll eat this up. For someone like me just trying to enjoy a game, it falls short of that. The redeeming value here is the overall production value and the effort involved. It's certainly worth a play through even for new comers to the series. If you're into anime and very dramatic stories, this seems to be an interactive extension of that. From a strict gaming and gameplay experience it falls short of other great games out there. Cliff Bizenksi of Epic games put it best when he said "MGS4 is a passive experience." My translation goes like this: you never ever feel like you're Snake. The game never gives you the illusion. Instead you're Snake's guardian angel so to speak. Guiding him where he needs to go so you can continue the story.
The GOOD:
Graphics. Character model look great along with enviornments and cutscenes. Top notch presentation all the way through.
Sound. BGM, soundtrack and effects were easily the best I've seen in a game. A very good soundstage and excellent work on the surrounds.
Story. When there is so much emphasis and time spent on the story, it's going to have it's good and bad. The Snake/Liquid interaction is great along with Big Mama/Snake.
Raiden. Such a badass he deserves his own line
The articstic fluidity in his combat was just amazing to see. Weapons. If you like guns and gadgets, this is the game for you. And they all can work. Nothing seemed useless to me.
Camera work. Never a problem and never in the way (3rd person). Even in cutscenes the camera work is great and highlights the characters amazingly well for emphasis.
The BAD:
Gameplay. While you get a large variety of guns, outside of aesthetics and stat ratings the feel was pretty much the same. The camera doesn't move as well other FPS games when in FPS view mode.
Cutscenes. Often it felt like an interactive anime series than a game. Clearly some of them were too long and unnaturally extended with verbose dialouge.
Game lenght. On my play through I wouldn't be shocked if actual gameplay was around 6-7hours with cutscenes and comm talk around 9-10hours. How about 5hours of cutscene and comm talk with 12hours of gameplay Kojima?
Dialouge. Goes from great to cheesy. And when I say cheesy, I mean late night, straight to TV, B movie cheesy. Although I think it's just a byproduct of having too much in there. It can't all be great.
AI. Enemy AI doesn't seem to exist. On Solid Normal atleast, they do nothing worth noting. If you have good FPS experience you'll never get overwhelmed or even flanked. Each area has good choke points where they'll funnel into so you can pick them off with ease.
Controls. Clunky and overly complicated. A bad combo. No blind fire and the lack of ability to cycle weapons with any consistancy takes away some of the immersion.
Facial expressions. Or lack there of. There's no fluidity in facial animations. Very stiff. The lip movment isn't very good either. With so much of it, it stands our after a while.
The UGLY:
Boss battles. Easily the worst boss battles in a game for some time. The only good and fun one being the Rex fight.
B&B. Since they made for most of the boss battles, it's expected for them to make this list but aside from that, their cutscenes/dialouge/backstories are easily the lowest points in this game. They never really fit in with the story and clearly felt tacked on for the sake of "boss battles." When you first see them in the cutscenes in the opening act you think "oh man this is gonna be cool to fight!" Then you actually fight them and there's nothing to it.
Over the top. Kojima tries too hard to make you feel bad for the characters. It's like the saddest story ever told followed by even a sadder story. If you're EMO, you'll eat this stuff up. I often found it comical.
Overall, I'd give the game a 7/10. If you're a huge MGS fan and completely buy into story then you'll eat this up. For someone like me just trying to enjoy a game, it falls short of that. The redeeming value here is the overall production value and the effort involved. It's certainly worth a play through even for new comers to the series. If you're into anime and very dramatic stories, this seems to be an interactive extension of that. From a strict gaming and gameplay experience it falls short of other great games out there. Cliff Bizenksi of Epic games put it best when he said "MGS4 is a passive experience." My translation goes like this: you never ever feel like you're Snake. The game never gives you the illusion. Instead you're Snake's guardian angel so to speak. Guiding him where he needs to go so you can continue the story.
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Argh... sounds like you still play it like an FPS >_<
The guns do behave differently and they matter to game play. e.g., you have no-kill bullets and guns like the Mk II pistol, Mosin Nagant, V. Ring loaded shotguns.
Although small arms like the pistols are similar to each other, others do have distinct traits in damage, reload cycle, accuracy and range. Just look at M60, M4, Railgun, DSR-1, RPG, Javelin, Mosin, Raging Raven's grenade launcher, Mantis Doll, ... Some weapons are more/less effective for certain enemies. They also have their own quirks.
Hmm... Not sure what's so bad about the boss battles because I had lot's of fun fighting them.
The only exception is Vamp. After figuring it out, he is easy to kill on replay because of the syringe
His comments cannot be further off. I felt much more engaged in MGS4 (outside of cutscenes) than Unreal Tournament, but then again.. that's just me.
From strict gameplay perspective, I think MGS4 packs a lot of fun, variety and replayability even though I didn't play MGS 2 and 3. Kojima has some nice ideas on how movies and gameplay can gel together. The only problem is the length.
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djskribbles
Legend
^ agreed, and i was never a big MGS fan either. i thought MGS4 was the best of the MGS games i've played (2, 3 and 4).
Is there an editor in the house?
After 27.5 hours of epic game playing/viewing enjoyment I have finally completed the game.
I found it awsome in every way although - as most expected - overwrought and ocassionally bumbling. The sort of clutch the chest stumble to and fro before dropping and standing up and dropping again death scenes were a bit much for me. The contrived relationships which had never existed in the MGS universe prior to 4 were also a bit much and ocassionally cringe inducing. Does this take away from the accomplishment of enjoying a game this dynamic, great-looking and (ocassionally) revolutionary? No.
I'm still thinking about how I'm going to treat the next playthrough.
MGS4 makes you feel like Snake, from animation to other clever techniques...so that's bull. You're playtime and criticism's reflect how you played it - like a shooter. Doesn't sound like you played it stealthfully at all. Plus you must have missed all the alternate routes. MGS4 is the longest MGS game, it's also one of the longest SP games this generation. Moreover, if you didn't feel like Snake - you weren't playing like Snake.
All the guns are different in feel and usefulness.
The cheeseyness and comical nature of the dialogue and script is intended. It's post modern writing that's been in the MGS series since the beginning. IF you found it funny, you were meant to.
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I'm not sure if it's longer than MGS3, is it? The gameplay is so much easier that it might just feel shorter to me. I have to say, though, that playing MGS4 makes me wish they'd remake MGS3 using the same engine and controls, even though I just finished 3 a few weeks ago.
He is not playing the game wrong, neither am I, we are playing the game like we played splinter cell or whatever stealthy games out there. The game isn't long by any standarts, its an extremely long movie thought. Certainly not one of the longest SP games of this generation. Your arguments are made out of thin air. Have you played any games this generation? Your just making stuff up.
The game has what he gameplay in this game is at best 10-20 hours playing the game like any other fan. If you play the game "stealthy" like in the video you was so amazed of, you run through the game in 4hours 30 minutes. Ill thell you what, you can shoose which of these two foures you want to operate with as "playing the way your supposed to. MGS4 also has 10 hours of movies. So thats 30 hours tops. This isn't exactly record breaking for this generation. Oblivion dialoge alone is 50 hours. If start doing sidequests it can last you 150-300hours depending on the player. Mass Effect probably has about 50 hours in it. GTA easy gives you 30+ hours of playtime and much much more. If you count gametime Splinter Cell "if you play like you supposed to" will take you 10-20 hours aswell. and that game offers a proper multiplayer port, not some kind of demo with 3 maps. I could go on with another 10-20 titles that match or surpass the length of this game..
We aren't playing the game right?? What kind of argument is that? i atleast know how to play video games, i'm not one of those kids that had to attend "special" school.
I play the game more stealthy than the video you showed, i only kill if im forced to or if im spotted. The other guy tranquilizes everybody. There is no gameplay difference, the enemies drop from one shot either way. I dont have all the time in the world, so im not gonna reload if something goes sour, so i have a few alerts, and get spotted once in a while (its not like the other guy isn't spotted, the alarm just never goes off. You got quite some time after your spotted before the alarm goes off, even on the hardest difficulty.) What makes my playing method wrong?? What makes it so fantastically different that tranquilizing everybody?
Its not the cheeseyness and comcial nature (only a few glimts of it), its the redundancy of the script. All the B&B stories are basically the same story over and over in a different country. (why not some kind of "dreamy" cutscene flashback of the things they do instead of having a not particularly great voice actor talk about them while we look at a picture) The first drebin cutscene repeats itself 3 times in one cutscene. Alot of the time information is getting told over and over again. There is nothing wrong with the production values in this game, its the execution. Kojima should have had an editor.
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MGS4 has a lot more variety than most games though. For the stealth part, I don't think you can find another stealth game in a live battle field. That's why many play MGS4 it like an FPS in those situations.
My first play through lasted 20+ hours because I explored the battle field thoroughly. I also laid low to simplify some of the boss fights.
I don't think you speak for RobertR1 when you say this. He mentions the FPS controls being bad and how you can funnel the enemies into killzones. but that only highlights that MGS4 is a stealth game with shooter trappings, but the focus is far more on the stealth part. If you play it as a shooter you will find it easy. The things he mentions are problems, undoubtedly, but they emerge mainly when you play the game as a shooter.
These are not problems solved in any other stealth game. MGS4's greatest failure gameplay-wise is that they made combat an effective option(!), and 'infinite ammo' via Drebin made it far too easy. So in many cases stealth is not the optimal choice, even though the game wants it to be. But the game is hardly unique this way: Splinter Cell, ever since Sam Fisher learned to use a knife and do quick knockouts lost quite a bit of its challenge. Doesn't mean the game doesn't get a lot harder if you play it 'right'. On the other hand, gunplay in Splinter Cell is so terrible that if you're spotted you're better off reloading (good thing SC offers quick saves and makes it easy to load games, even in the console version).
That you find the stealth game so much easier, I don't know what to tell you, because I found the opposite, that barring the fact that combat is so forgiving, the stealth game is much harder than other current stealth offerings.
Actually, in Splinter Cell: Double Agent there's a mission in broad daylight in a wartorn African city. In many ways it actually makes stealth easier than other missions, though.
The SC on ps3\x360 did this last year. Did not play like a FPS at all, the gunplay and ammo limitations (and allmost immidate penalties by the game) doesn't allow for that. You cannot pick up other weapons either, so if you would want to kill everybody, you have to CQC them all.
Please stop the "oh you don't know how to play this!" I played in the manner that I felt was enjoyable. I snuck around and when spotted I decided to shoot. Wanna know why? Because I have SHIT LOAD of guns and ammo. Want to really encourage people to play it the "right" way? Ask Kojima why there are so many guns and ammo availabe at all times? If you want to make a stealth game and play it as such, limit the ammo and guns. It's really that simple.
This is a silly as "the only way to really play Halo 3 is to turn on all the skull and do Legendary on Solo. It's a 200hour long game and the only real way to play it!"
Another thing I forgot to mention were the loading sequences. What's the point of having the mandatory installs if you're going to have "now loading" routinely?
This is a silly as "the only way to really play Halo 3 is to turn on all the skull and do Legendary on Solo. It's a 200hour long game and the only real way to play it!"
Another thing I forgot to mention were the loading sequences. What's the point of having the mandatory installs if you're going to have "now loading" routinely?
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That is fairly obvious. Since they are not streaming levels and one can go back and forth between areas they must minimize load times. Else you would have longer load times and even more to whine about.
I think people opinion's about the game shouldn't be discussed, it's fruitless. While some people come into MGS4 as uber-fans and hail it as the best game ever, the other end of the spectrum come into it expecting to hate it and want to chew it up on message boards. You have two extremes with a lot of people in between (like myself).
It's not so much 'you're playing it wrong' as 'if you play it this way, then you'll have a different experience'. If you're not willing to play MGS4 as a stealth game, then yeah, you won't enjoy it and you probably will have wasted your money.
djskribbles
Legend
i realize that we don't all enjoy the same games, but some of things RobertR1 is complaining about are questionable, while others, i can see how one would feel that way.
to me, the controls, boss fights and gameplay were perfectly fine. i picked up the controls very quickly and they just felt right. gameplay was quite varied and i found it to be very enjoyable... can you elaborate on this other than commenting on the weapons? and btw, the weapons are quite varied... yeah there are some that are similar, but thats because MGS4 has a lot more weapons than most games have. there are different classes of weapons, and each perform quite differently. theres more variety than 90+% of the games out there. i also recall you saying earlier in this thread that you were gonna stick with the M4 and modify it... maybe thats your problem. you have your sniper rifles, shotguns, assault rifles, SMG's, tranquilizers, rocket launchers, machine guns. it really puzzles me how someone could think that these are all "pretty much the same". not to mention you can modify most of them.
to me, the controls, boss fights and gameplay were perfectly fine. i picked up the controls very quickly and they just felt right. gameplay was quite varied and i found it to be very enjoyable... can you elaborate on this other than commenting on the weapons? and btw, the weapons are quite varied... yeah there are some that are similar, but thats because MGS4 has a lot more weapons than most games have. there are different classes of weapons, and each perform quite differently. theres more variety than 90+% of the games out there. i also recall you saying earlier in this thread that you were gonna stick with the M4 and modify it... maybe thats your problem. you have your sniper rifles, shotguns, assault rifles, SMG's, tranquilizers, rocket launchers, machine guns. it really puzzles me how someone could think that these are all "pretty much the same". not to mention you can modify most of them.
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Actually I gave up on the M4 quickly. I ended up using a lot of the weapons avaibale. My favorties would be P90, that solider gun X whaterver, the machine guns, grenade launcher, Rail gun on the 2 legged robots and the sniper at times. The grenade launcher rocked against the black rollie pollies. It also brought down the Wolf chick really fast!
I didn't modify any of them though. They worked fine as they were. I noticed that if you center their head in the big circle given to you in 3rd person view, it's an easy head shot and requires less precision than FPS view. That was the easiest way to take down Liquids' elite guard (Frogg?). Their big heads + that circle made for easy headshots. Glad I figured that out before the last level.
Really all said and done, I played in the manner I found most entertaining. I don't care if it's the right or wrong way. There's no point to play a game to someone else's standard if YOU are not having fun. It's be like telling you "Hey, the way to play Halo3 right is to turn on all the skulls and play it on Legendary Solo. That's really the way its' meant to be played!" or "turn off all the visual aids in Assassin's Creed and it goes from a 4/10 (what I'd give it!) to a 10/10!" Doesn't work like that. In the end, the game was still fun. However I wish it was longer (for my style of play) and less heavy on the cutscenes, and over the top, overly dramatic stories. For those who aboslutely loved it to death, clearly we won't see eye to eye. There won't be any game that everyone loves and agrees on. That's just how it is.
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Agreed. If the developers allow you to play the game a certain way, then it was meant to be played that way. If there is a "better" way to play it, then maybe the other way should have been left out. I've heard the, "you're playing it wrong," argument many times and it never makes sense. Games are broken, not gamers.
That said, I didn't have any issue with the gameplay, and hopefully I'll get some more time with it, because I thought it was pretty enjoyable. The only thing I didn't like, that I mentioned earlier, was that I found it hard to judge how well I was hidden, but I didn't know about the meter.
I borrowed this from a friend. I haven't played a metal gear since my nes and I have to say i didn't find this enjoyable . My friend talked this up and loved it . he's been yelling at me all day , but what can I say. I really don't have a taste for cgi in my games . I'm glad alot of you enjoyed it though , its supposed to be the last one or something right ?
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