Metal Gear Solid 4 post:#1067

[Cheezdoodles]

Damn, I guess you have never played a game that you have been impressed with the AI (unless you count the times you first started gaming). I think you will always be unimpressed with the AI in games. I'm glad I haven't gotten to that point. That's a lot of missed out joy from games.

Its not like i havent played games with good AI, not that at all, i have played quite a few games with good AI, Metal Gear Solid 4 is just not one of them.

The whole game is based around scripted sequences, scripted walking paths for the AI and respawning, the only thing the AI are good at is running towards the place where alarms go off. In firefights the AI is decent at best (they manage to come towards you, but they dont know how to flank you or take cover effectively), they are very stationary once they found you and you got all the time in the world to kill them if you want to.

If you get the AI to look after you, they aren't exactly very good. They will walk over to whatever spot you got spotted in, stand there and look about for a few seconds, and walk off. Its completely unrealistic and stupid. If i just saw some ninja runing around, im gonna do more than just look around for 10 seconds and stop caring.

I played games in 2005 with vastly better AI than this (F.E.A.R.). I'm sorry, but there is nothing special or particularly good with the AI in MGS4 (and no, turning on the hardest setting didn't really make a difference).

There are so many things that feel dated with Metal Gear Solid 4, the blocked off pathways, the absence of jumping, the limited movement possiblities, and the AI.

I think most of this comes from me never really playing a MGS game before,maybe experienced MGS players are familiar with the limitations of a MGS game. Im not, and most of the similar games i have played the last couple years are far more open and have far more movement possibilities.

Im not used to not being able to climb up 2 boxes stacked on top of eachother, or a bar table. I have done this in games for years,, i have also played games with AI on par or better with MGS4 for years. The game feels like a PS2 game with really really really really good graphics (im not saying the graphics are bad, the gameplay just makes me feel like im playing a PS2 game)

Dont get me wrong, i enjoy the game and the cutscenes (althought some could have been a bit shorter, atleast i kinda "get" the whole point of the cutscene and sometimes they keep talking slowly and long around the topic that ive allready understood), i enjoy the humor, but its certainly not the technical marble that so many people here wanted it to be.

MGS4 looks good, sometimes very good, but other than that MGS4 doesn't do anything thats hasn't allready been done better in some other game.

Some things with MGS4 are just wierd to me. I dont get why all the scenes in this game are so small (and we gotta load so often) aspecially not considering that we got to INSTALL the game SEVERAL times (thats right, you gotta RE-INSTALL the game after each act (!!!), it only takes 3 minutes or so thought instead of the initial 8).

The visual fidelity just isn't there for me to understand why all the areas are tiny, and we gotta load so much, even with repeated installs.

 

[obonicus]

If you get the AI to look after you, they aren't exactly very good. They will walk over to whatever spot you got spotted in, stand there and look about for a few seconds, and walk off. Its completely unrealistic and stupid. If i just saw some ninja runing around, im gonna do more than just look around for 10 seconds and stop caring.

Just a minor niggle: the isn't looking for you unless an alert has been sounded or they're actively attacking you. Otherwise they just 'thought' they saw something. There are several levels of alert. 'I thought I saw/heard something' doesn't even qualify as a '?', usually.

Stealth games typically behave this way; they have limited fields of view and will often investigate strange occurences and usually hesitate before starting an alarm. Splinter Cell is very similar this way, and Thief was too. Even Commandos had similar AI behavior. It's part of the gameplay to have the AI notice things but react like idiots. ('Huh, this closet is open and the contents gone? How strange, let me close it.') IMO it's what makes this sort of game playable; otherwise they'd be incredibly, frustratingly hard. (Just look at how FPS games work when they try a stealth mission, like NOLF.)

Most games constrain you to a given path (GeoW, for instance) but stealth games just do it MORE.

Im not used to not being able to climb up 2 boxes stacked on top of eachother, or a bar table. I have done this in games for years,, i have also played games with AI on par or better with MGS4 for years. The game feels like a PS2 game with really really really really good graphics (im not saying the graphics are bad, the gameplay just makes me feel like im playing a PS2 game)

This again is another thing common to stealth games, they like to force you to explore levels in an expected fashion, in part because of how they've set up enemy patrols, no doubt. In Hitman you can't jump at all other than in some very specific situations. Splinter Cell gives you more room to jump around, but they also use invisible forcefields from time. Thief was an exception in some ways, but also was far from being free-roaming.

From your complaints, it seems like MGS4's (I don't have it yet) model is applying stealth design to shooter gameplay, and I could see how that could be annoying if you're expecting a pure shooter and are unfamiliar with stealth games.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Just a minor niggle: the isn't looking for you unless an alert has been sounded or they're actively attacking you. Otherwise they just 'thought' they saw something. There are several levels of alert. 'I thought I saw/heard something' doesn't even qualify as a '?', usually.

im well aware of this

This again is another thing common to stealth games, they like to force you to explore levels in an expected fashion, in part because of how they've set up enemy patrols, no doubt. In Hitman you can't jump at all other than in some very specific situations. Splinter Cell gives you more room to jump around, but they also use invisible forcefields from time. Thief was an exception in some ways, but also was far from being free-roaming.
.

Look, i have played stealth games before, i have played them all. People here keep saying that "its a stealth" game people!! Im fully aware of that.

SC didn't keep me in these tiny game-sections and ketp installing all every 1\4th of the game. It didn't load every 3 city streets you passed. Yes its linear, yes its has plenty of flaws aswell.But sam fisher or whatever hes called is not stopped by 2 cardboard boxes stacked upon eachother, neither should snake. Hitman is a comparison i dont understand why you make, as the game is totally different than SC and MGS. But lets not talk about other games, there really aren't many stealth games out there anyway.

From your complaints, it seems like MGS4's (I don't have it yet) model is applying stealth design to shooter gameplay, and I could see how that could be annoying if you're expecting a pure shooter and are unfamiliar with stealth games.

Im not unfamiliar with stealth games, nor where i expecting a shooter. when people say that the game has amazing AI,it has to really be good. Just because the AI in SC and Hitman isn't particularly good doesn't mean that MGS4 AI automatically is amazing. Not when we have played dozens of games that offer much more complex and intelligent AI. The few times i shoot in MGS4 is usually when the game forces you to (and sometimes i shoot people to help out one of the militias, for fun). Either way, if the game forces you to shoot, and people claim the AI is good, it should be good in these circumstances aswell, not just only good at pathfinding.

You see where im getting at? MGS4 AI is nothing special. Not in firefights, not in any circumstance do they show something out of the ordinary compared to todays AI codes in other games. It doesn't matter if the game is a stealth game or not, stop cutting it all this slack. Its a good game, but its not the very best at everything.

 

[patsu]

The MGS4 AI is not the best, but the soldiers can be quite effective in dealing out damages. I still have to be careful not getting discovered. In MGS4, the game is a little broken because I can always buy more ammo from Drebin. In the first MGS game I played, once I ran out of ammo, that's it.

As for the maps, the ones I played are not really tiny. e.g., In Midtown, I can go up some building (4th floor) and fire at people on the ground floor. If a level appears small, it's likely that it's by design (so that it's more difficult to slip pass the guards).

Have not noticed a lot of loading in the first 2 Acts yet (but I'm fairly early in Act 2).

EDIT: Finished Act 2. ^_^ . People should play the game (buy, rent or borrow). But Ostepop is right, Kojima Production kept the old level loading structure. There are some tiny stages connecting larger ones. The loading for those transit stages is fast though.

I like what the Act 2 boss dropped when I defeated it with the Tranquilizer.

 

[obonicus]

Look, i have played stealth games before, i have played them all. People here keep saying that "its a stealth" game people!! Im fully aware of that.

SC didn't keep me in these tiny game-sections and ketp installing all every 1\4th of the game. It didn't load every 3 city streets you passed. Yes its linear, yes its has plenty of flaws aswell.But sam fisher or whatever hes called is not stopped by 2 cardboard boxes stacked upon eachother, neither should snake. Hitman is a comparison i dont understand why you make, as the game is totally different than SC and MGS. But lets not talk about other games, there really aren't many stealth games out there anyway.

You're moving the goalposts there a tiny bit. I'm talking only about AI and invisible barriers, not the whole experience. This isn't SC vs. MGS, just that many of the things you're complaining about are stealth game conventions (no, not the loading, but I'm not addressing the loading). Maybe they're unfortunate conventions, but from your (apparently quite negative) experience they seem like something you weren't expecting. Because yes, SC also has 'huh, why can't Sam Fisher climb -this- thing' moments, though maybe it's more blatant.

I mention Hitman because it is a stealth game, especially when playing for Silent Assassin. It also relies on idiot AI, but like MGS4 (apparently) makes shooting your way out of trouble a valid proposition.

Im not unfamiliar with stealth games, nor where i expecting a shooter. when people say that the game has amazing AI,it has to really be good. Just because the AI in SC and Hitman isn't particularly good doesn't mean that MGS4 AI automatically is amazing.

I'm not saying it is, either. I'm just saying the flaws you mention are -standard- AI for stealth games. Dumb? Hell yeah. Stupider than other games? In my experience, though it may be scripted, MGS guards are actually smarter than that in most when it comes to search and destroy. Still dumb as bricks when you rely on combat, especially in 3, with CQC, but at least they throw grenades and don't just charge and shoot.

Not when we have played dozens of games that offer much more complex and intelligent AI. The few times i shoot in MGS4 is usually when the game forces you to (and sometimes i shoot people to help out one of the militias, for fun). Either way, if the game forces you to shoot, and people claim the AI is good, it should be good in these circumstances aswell, not just only good at pathfinding.

No argument, for the most part. I'd question about how you've played dozens of games with far more complex AI, mostly because I'd want to play them too. AI is pretty primitive in most games, often on purpose.

 

[ultragpu]

just finished the game last night, and holy wow! this is by far the best PS3 game i've played so far. on my 2nd runthrough now and just found out there're so much more routes and options i can take. the game plays and looks both beyond my belief. 10/10 well deserved.

 

[RenegadeRocks]

I like what the Act 2 boss dropped when I defeated it with the Tranquilizer.

Damnit !!! I'll have to do that in my second playthrough!

BTW, I have just started act 3 and I am loving the

Spoiler

James Bond kinda following thing! Very Retro

.

How many acts are there? After finishing Act 2, the playtime was 10 hrs, though I don't think it has mission briefing and cutscenes in that coz I have spent a lot more hrs on it(I have a fever and have been at home for two days).Act 2 wa s pretty short compared to Act 1.

 

[Betanumerical]

Damnit !!! I'll have to do that in my second playthrough!

BTW, I have just started act 3 and I am loving the

Spoiler

James Bond kinda following thing! Very Retro [\spoiler].

How many acts are there? After finishing Act 2, the playtime was 10 hrs, though I don't think it has mission briefing and cutscenes in that coz I have spent a lot more hrs on it(I have a fever and have been at home for two days).Act 2 wa s pretty short compared to Act 1.

Spoiler

Spoiler

There are 5 Acts, last is the shortest 2 - 4 are roughly the same lenght as each other

 

[RenegadeRocks]

I like what the Act 2 boss dropped when I defeated it with the Tranquilizer.

Hmmm... I loaded up that part again to see, I got what you are talking about.

Spoiler

Though putting it on Snake's muscular body made me laugh, but it might come in handy when we are following that guy in Europe.But I can't play the whole thing again to get there with the mask,

second playthrough maybe

 

[Neb]

No argument, for the most part. I'd question about how you've played dozens of games with far more complex AI, mostly because I'd want to play them too. AI is pretty primitive in most games, often on purpose.

But seriously you think the devs wanted this AI on purpose? And there are lots of other games showing noticably better AI, even games from last-gen im afraid to say.

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_6627_en.html

 

[Betanumerical]

But seriously you think the devs wanted this AI on purpose? And there are lots of other games showing noticably better AI, even games from last-gen im afraid to say.

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_6627_en.html

All those videos the people are most likely playing on very easy right?, the AI is so much better/harder on the boss extreme, its painfully difficult.

 

[Neb]

All those videos the people are most likely playing on very easy right?, the AI is so much better/harder on the boss extreme, its painfully difficult.

Harder becouse their bullets/weapons do more damage or becouse they engage intelligent?

 

[Betanumerical]

Harder becouse their bullets/weapons do more damage or becouse they engage intelligent?

Both, mainly because of the second, but yes the first aswell. Theres also more people in The Boss Extreme.

I could easily sneak through the entire game on naked normal with the boss extreme damage.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Harder becouse their bullets/weapons do more damage or becouse they engage intelligent?

I think its harder because they do more damage, and because there might be more of them.


I have not seen the AI do anything "smarter" playing at the highest difficulty comparing to the second highest. Its exactly the same but the enemies are deadlier.

I also think the enemies are slightly quicker to draw their weapon and shoot you when they are suspicious of something, but thats about all ive seen now.

 

[Phil]

Ostepop,

I think you need to remember here, that MGS is a game that's not only focusing to be as realistic as possible, but remain fun and at times a bit light hearted as well. It's a game, that still tries to be a game.

The AI you're criticising is what makes it all the more enjoyable at the same time. It's gives you the opportunity to play with the enemy soldiers and find the paths that lead passed them without losing much of a challenge. ERP made a couple of good posts a while ago covering AI and the challenge when doing good AI. Sometimes, the most brilliant AI is the downfall of a game when it's too perfect and doesn't leave any room to for error or fun.

MGS4's AI works well (and is impressive in its own way) because it gives the player immense freedom to play the game successfully using different approaches. Some may prefer "Shoot first, think later" approach, playing it more like an action game - others prefer the stealth approach playing with the guards, lure them away from their predefined path to either get passed them or to knock them out. And while you're at it, you may even notice that some guards when lured to the same spot by the same noise multiple times will cause them to look a bit closer. In example: Don't expect to be able to hide at the same spot every single time - do it enough times and the enemy you're playing with will find you.

I completed the game on "normal" difficulty first and found it a good challenge for the first time through - now, playing it on the next harder difficulty setting, I am pleased to find that it's a much bigger challenging and mor rewarding experience all together. When you make a game featuring 5 different difficulty settings, you are bound to have very different AI. To effectively judge how good the AI really is - I suggest you first complete the game and then try it on the most difficult setting. To die after 2 to 4 direct gunshot hits with less rations definately changes the way you play the game.

Unfortunately, the easier settings don't do the game any justice (now playing the harder difficulty, not even normal IMO) - the guards are far to short-sighted and deaf to make it a true challenge. Even the bottles and trash on the ground that make an alerting noise upon walking over them are not as present as in the higher difficulty settings - something that I experienced to be fatal if you're not careful, as there are more enemies as well (on hard or the extreme setting).

Perhaps play the game with a clear mind and form a new impression. Play with the guards and you'll soon recognise where the AI doesn't fail to impress. Also, the enemy soldiers at the beginning of the game are not equal with the enemies you'll find later in the game. It's bound to get more challenging.

I have not seen the AI do anything "smarter" playing at the highest difficulty comparing to the second highest. Its exactly the same but the enemies are deadlier.

This is definately not true - I highly recommend you give it another try. The enemies for one are more sensitive to noise (caused by hitting bottles when you walk over them), see you farther (i.e. your camo % needs to effectively higher) - there are more of them, you take more damage when being hit - they take different pahts and react more agressive when in Alert or Caution mode. In that sense, they are less limited, less stupid.

 

[deepbrown]

What makes MGS4 streets ahead is the possibilities in the gameplay. You can do what you want - though it's advised to be stealthy. I think that's obvious. This is a hide and seek game. What's impressive about it is the interactivity of the world you're in. Most games have you running through and shooting, but this one give you infinite possibilities.

 

[betan]

I'd finished the game on NA default, playing no-kill on hard now.

Graphically it looks like MGS on a HD console. There are beautiful scenes and environments like South America, and the game renders very respectful amount like a small army on screen. Yet, there is no visible LOD system, possibly no streaming either, as a result textures especially ground textures are generally worst of its kind. Though framerate is very solid most of the time, there are weird chocks at some cutscenes that PS2 would have no problem (for that camera angle and visibility).
Facial models are great though. Especially little details of facial expressions, wrinkles, etc. are very impressive.
Overall, I doubt the technological framework of this game is any more expensive than any other game, very big letdown considering the blockbuster label.

Now the gameplay part... Though I liked both MGS2 and MGS3, I consider the core mechanics and story low points of the series. For me the attraction is presentation and boss battles. Likewise I don't particularly consider myself a fan of stealth genre, so I don't like SC and Hitman mechanics any better (excluding fixed camera and immobility during FP view shit in MGS2/3).

So I cannot emphasize enough how pleasantly I was surprised when I found myself deeply enjoying every second of MGS4. It's pretty much the same game, at the same time much much better.
I love how the game takes care of all the tedious work and lets you enjoy what's important. The on demand Drebin, auto equipment sales, auto rations, Solid Eye, Threat Circle, and the beautiful Octocamo are all the fruits of that mentality. How many games are there in which no two cutscenes show the same costume for the main character? Hell, one time Snake was looking like a pink ninja, I thought that was one of the coolest things ever.

At least on normal, despite the linearity there is great freedom given to the player. I rarely play a game twice. Yet MGS4 is possibly the first full game in a long long time I knew I would be playing a second time right in the beginning.

For me, a good game should become easier on harder difficulty (TM). At least Act 1 on hard seems to confirm that rule, despite longer alarm periods, more difficult CQC, bullet damage, aggressive AI and less number of health supplies.

Story is poor as ever, maybe that's because I agree with Kojima about the premise hence it feels like a fun educational program for high school students. Overall a straightforward fantasy under sci-fi makeup (admittedly though it explains the monstrosities fairly well in the end). More often than not, I dislike goofy humor, self awareness of the game, over dramatization and "dear son, I love you so you must kill me" like moments (no spoilers here) but it wouldn't be MGS4 without them and I have respect for that. One thing I could live without is long stalls or "ah uh" moments in actionless cutscenes that seems to be common in Japanese anime and games. Still, if the choice was between short cutscenes like an ordinary game and MGS4 cutscenes I would always choose MGS4 as it is without thinking.

Codec seems a little more useful this time as opposed to intrusive propaganda I seem to remember from previous games. Not sure about the backstories of B&B Corp, not that they are bad or anything but using the same template for all of them may be considered cheap despite the intended sociological message.

The interesting thing for me is, despite the predictability and lack of subtlety in story, there is still that rare simplistic beauty in presentation in addition to awesome action scenes that satisfy the child in me. (very very minor spoiler)

Spoiler

For example during the last battle (or interactive cutscene, depending on one's POV) there is a moment where snake and "the other guy" look at each other and you immediately guess what's going to happen next, yet I was really moved when they finally inject the syringes.

In short, best MGS by far, maybe even best game this gen. It's indeed a fan service, but still very much enjoyable for the rest of us.

 

[RenegadeRocks]

I think the codec is played down this time.In MGS2 and 3 codec was a really useful device I used to resort to get more info, play around with diff characters(MGS2) and get hints.This time it seems I could complete the game even without opening the codec even once ! Most of the time its just Otacon on the codec,

Spoiler

Rosemary feels tacked on right now, maybe she'll have a role later.I can't talk to drebin whenever I want to although he calls up after boss battles. I can't talk to Raiden whenever I want. Even Otacon has very few things to say, whereas earlier he,as well as others, used to have a hell lot to talk about. Hell, the colonel used to blabber so much earlier, I can't even talk to him now.

Looks like Kojima ran out of ideas for the codec this time! or maybe I am wrong I am still at the beginning of Act 4.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

im well aware of this




Look, i have played stealth games before, i have played them all. People here keep saying that "its a stealth" game people!! Im fully aware of that.

SC didn't keep me in these tiny game-sections and ketp installing all every 1\4th of the game. It didn't load every 3 city streets you passed. Yes its linear, yes its has plenty of flaws aswell.But sam fisher or whatever hes called is not stopped by 2 cardboard boxes stacked upon eachother, neither should snake. Hitman is a comparison i dont understand why you make, as the game is totally different than SC and MGS. But lets not talk about other games, there really aren't many stealth games out there anyway.




Im not unfamiliar with stealth games, nor where i expecting a shooter. when people say that the game has amazing AI,it has to really be good. Just because the AI in SC and Hitman isn't particularly good doesn't mean that MGS4 AI automatically is amazing. Not when we have played dozens of games that offer much more complex and intelligent AI. The few times i shoot in MGS4 is usually when the game forces you to (and sometimes i shoot people to help out one of the militias, for fun). Either way, if the game forces you to shoot, and people claim the AI is good, it should be good in these circumstances aswell, not just only good at pathfinding.

You see where im getting at? MGS4 AI is nothing special. Not in firefights, not in any circumstance do they show something out of the ordinary compared to todays AI codes in other games. It doesn't matter if the game is a stealth game or not, stop cutting it all this slack. Its a good game, but its not the very best at everything.

I guess I would like to see a video of you playing MGS4 (all the way through an act) in a run-and-gun fashion on Big Boss Hard without killing. Then, I could believe your claim of the AI not being good.

No AI really works if you know the correct way to get through the game (unless there is almost no way to get through).

 

[Cheezdoodles]

I guess I would like to see a video of you playing MGS4 (all the way through an act) in a run-and-gun fashion on Big Boss Hard without killing.

Im not running and gunning down everybody on the map, i never said i did. (if you want to kill em all, just lie down\crawl). In the forced frogg encounter (firefight inside the building ) (on big boss hard) i did run and gun without dying easily.

I'm not playing run and gun, i play stealthy but if i get spotted i take the guard out and try to get away, and keep going. The tranquilizer isn't my kind of weapon. I think the M4 with mods looks to cool not to be used. Anyways, the Ai isn't particularly hard when they try to shoot you and you try to shoot them, but then again, im used to playing CoD4 on maximum sensitivity with a average killratio in dm+ TDM (not in a clan\party) of 2.85. I also got a very decent kills\minute on xbl. These enemies on Bigg boss hard aren't particularly hard to anybody who is half decent at faced paced online shooters.

The enemies in this game are far to stationary in firefights and they dont seak cover very well. You can pick off headshots far to easily. (I got like 98 kills with 68 headshots and 20 or so CQC.)