Metal Gear Solid 4 post:#1067

[deepbrown]

Well a lot of the philosophers were off their rocker...

But in this case, it's a matter of placement as much as anything. The game experience was 'broken' with an unexpected, unrelated, change in the experience. What if Halo3 was interrupted near the end with a scene of grunts in different fashion costumes carefully constructed into a poignant statement about the nature of fashion and culture? Making that statement then and there, even if it's a very intelligent matter of discussion, would leave a lot of players scratching their head as to why put it in a shooter and break up the shooting? And if you were to pick up a philosophy book and in amongst the musings of Descartes, were to find the academic narrative became an action adventure with the Philosopher stealthing through a nuclear complex to defeat his own clone, would that not leave you questioning the presentation of the author? Would you like it if your favourite sport was interrupted with the players breaking into terrible song as a visual discourse on the nature of modern entertainment?

The intentions of the MGS2 team were probably lost on a lot of people. If they were targeting Philosophy majors, they were marginalizing the appeal of their product and losing the impact of their message and everyone else!

For a start Halo 3 is a shallow experience targeted at a very particular audience. The story and presentation of MGS has always had depth and an adult outlook, full of surprises, that it's never completely unexpected. But it was meant to be unexpected...it's meant to make you question - the whole point was Kojima was questioning the player and telling a story only a game could tell. It's a one off, it's something only games can call to their fame - it's something films will never be able to achieve.

And it isn't as sharp a change as you're making it out to be. Playing as Radien was always out of the ordinary and you wondered why you were him, moreover, the gameplay continues similarly, the story continues to be told in the very same way, and you continue using the same mechanics to continue. It isn't a sharp change.

And if Descartes was to tell his Philosophy in a more entertaining way then I might agree with some of what he says, as it stands - Descartes' work is good for criticism

Moreover, you don't have to get the "philosophy" to enjoy it - the "what the f*ck" moment and the thoughts that go through your mind are philosophical whether you like it or not - "normal" people (since philosopher's are insane) philosophise all the time about even the most mundane things. Are you saying that even though you didnt know The Matrix is the movie version of a very famous philosophical experiment/example, you didn't enjoy the moment when it was revealed Neo's world wasn't real? These philosophical surprises have been in film for decades.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The story and presentation of MGS has always had depth and an adult outlook, full of surprises, that it's never completely unexpected...Playing as Radien was always out of MGS and you wondered why you were him

If one had followed MGS closely, that might well have been the case. I'm not sure relying on an existing fanbase is a good way to grow a product though. If MGS2 was only intended for existing MGS fans, then I shouldn't have been playing, and that explains why it made no sense!

Moreover, you don't have to get the "philosophy" to enjoy it...

Oh, I agree. I'm not knocking philosophy in games, or the inclusion of any out-of-game ideas. It's just the presentation that got me. MGS2 was, as I recall it, a young spy-type combatant sneaking around a base. He had lots of discussions with other characters. And then all of the sudden in a zone we couldn't work out what we were supposed to do next, the game was addressing me, the player, and telling me to switch off. The conversations we had at that point in time went along the lines of 'Looks like the developers didn't know how to finish the story, and just ended it here'

It'd be like the Matrix having Neo turn to the camera, point his finger at the audience and say 'What are you waiting for? Go home and cook dinner.' Then he'd just mill around for a bit repeating various similar comments, until finally picking up the 'movie' and entering a big fight-scene. I can admire the daring of Kojima to try a novel idea, but IMO it didn't work.

 

[Cornsnake]

Fair enough some people might have missed this or passed it off as unimportant, especially if they hadn't played the original and didn't know what to expect from Metal Gear, and just treated the story as a reason to shoot stuff like most other games, but there are consistent clues that there is more than meets the eye to the situation, which is revealed in the final part of the game.

I would say having played MGS makes it worse.

Spoiler

As soon you start playing as Raiden you want Snake back asap. Having to play as someone you dont care for detaches you from the story. And they make you listen to very boring codec calls with Rose so you'll no longer care what she has to say near the end. Then there is the strange feeling that your actually playing a cheap copy of MGS. And of coarse then its revealed that yes you are playing a cheap copy of MGS. Would you have preferred to play in a fantasy setting? Instead of this boring orange waste plant? Yes please. After that all the philosophical stuff gets lost in what seems like complete nonsense. It sure sound interesting reading about it in this thread, but I was more interested in playing as Snake again and going after Liquid and Metal Gear Ray. I've gone back to see that cool cutscene when Liquid is revealed many times but I always skipped the codec calls after that. The story in MGS 2 is told pretty badly IMO, MGS and MGS 3 are a lot better.

 

[deepbrown]

If one had followed MGS closely, that might well have been the case. I'm not sure relying on an existing fanbase is a good way to grow a product though. If MGS2 was only intended for existing MGS fans, then I shouldn't have been playing, and that explains why it made no sense!
Oh, I agree. I'm not knocking philosophy in games, or the inclusion of any out-of-game ideas. It's just the presentation that got me. MGS2 was, as I recall it, a young spy-type combatant sneaking around a base. He had lots of discussions with other characters. And then all of the sudden in a zone we couldn't work out what we were supposed to do next, the game was addressing me, the player, and telling me to switch off. The conversations we had at that point in time went along the lines of 'Looks like the developers didn't know how to finish the story, and just ended it here'

It'd be like the Matrix having Neo turn to the camera, point his finger at the audience and say 'What are you waiting for? Go home and cook dinner.' Then he'd just mill around for a bit repeating various similar comments, until finally picking up the 'movie' and entering a big fight-scene. I can admire the daring of Kojima to try a novel idea, but IMO it didn't work.

Sorry i don;t know what I was saying in that sentence you quoted - I meant to say "Playing as Raiden is out of the ordinary"...I've yet to properly finish MGS - MGS2 was my first real MGS game (or unreal)

And my god it did work! It confused the fick out of you didn't it!? So much that you questioned whether your game was broken, whether they knew what you were doing (when he said it's late, and I've been playing it for too long - I was like "Ahhh stop watching me!".)

Look it's hard to involve the masses in something like that, and not many films even do it that well (The Terminator and Alien do it well), but I don't think the enjoyment of the game, or even what Kojima was trying to achieve was compromised for these players.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

...but I don't think the enjoyment of the game, or even what Kojima was trying to achieve was compromised for these players.

I agree, and wouldn't mind if the same weirdness featured in MGS4, even if I'm left totally perplexed. I was just trying to point out that catisfit's take on MGS2's cleverness wasn't universal.

 

[catisfit]

I was just trying to point out that catisfit's take on MGS2's cleverness wasn't universal.

Fair enough . I doubt many people thought the developers didn't know how to end the story when it happened though - given this is the precise point where the story got all complicated and philosophical :smile:

 

[kyleb]

I never played the orignal but bought MGS2 for the PC when it came out and thought the story was great, ending and all.

 

[dobwal]

I always like MGS's storyline even through they can be a bit complicated to the point of incoherency. But I always felt that the reality in the MGS universe was unlike ours, so your rationale had to be applied differently. Just like Ghost in the Shell deals with topics that are prevalent to its reality so does MGS.

C'mon, the game is based on a mobile bipedal robot with global spanning nuclear capabilities. In our world, the Metal Gear is a waste of dollars as long range attacks don't need the level of mobility of a Metal Gear. Nuclear capable submarine serves the Gear's purpose at much lower costs. In our reality, if America or Russia ever finds itself relying on one man to keep global peace it will be by happen stance and not by rigorous planning.

In our world a 100 billion dollars is chump change to our biggest world governments. Its cheaper to levy additional taxes than galvant through out the world fighting for that small amount of money.

 

[RenegadeRocks]

What I'll say Shifty is, Kojima made the game world and the real world entwine into each other (I haven't finished MGS2 yet), something no one else ever thought to do, tried to do or could accomplish to do.
It was a first ever kindof moment when it happened! This is an example of understanding of human behaviour and a daring execution, We were playing his game and He was playing with us! The game had enough hints that everything is being treated very lightly due to the goofy dialogue and the way everyone talked to Raiden (us) as if he is being thrown about, totally unimportant, which didn't feel right, as we want a serious story, but it all pays-off when the game suddenly turns around and talks back.Its a complete new layer on top of playing the game. Then you realise that even the uneasiness we felt was also planned by Kojima by putting all that stupid stuff He made us feel uneasy for the whole game just so that it would all make sense in the end! While The Patriots played around with Raiden, Kojima played around with us!
This whole idea, and getting it approved to be put into a game that is supposed to sell, itself requires a full confidence in the understanding of the matter and its execution. I respect him for his such a brave endeavour.

In this world where everyone talks about taking life seriously, Kojima is having fun with the whole world ! Its the philosophy of life !:smile:

 

[Nesh]

I would say having played MGS makes it worse.

Spoiler

As soon you start playing as Raiden you want Snake back asap. Having to play as someone you dont care for detaches you from the story. And they make you listen to very boring codec calls with Rose so you'll no longer care what she has to say near the end. Then there is the strange feeling that your actually playing a cheap copy of MGS. And of coarse then its revealed that yes you are playing a cheap copy of MGS. Would you have preferred to play in a fantasy setting? Instead of this boring orange waste plant? Yes please. After that all the philosophical stuff gets lost in what seems like complete nonsense. It sure sound interesting reading about it in this thread, but I was more interested in playing as Snake again and going after Liquid and Metal Gear Ray. I've gone back to see that cool cutscene when Liquid is revealed many times but I always skipped the codec calls after that. The story in MGS 2 is told pretty badly IMO, MGS and MGS 3 are a lot better.

You cant find an art that can be liked 100% by everyone no matter how good it is

Nothing can appeal to everyone. And that becomes even more the case the more people set boundaries in their perception

 

[Cornsnake]

You cant find an art that can be liked 100% by everyone no matter how good it is

Nothing can appeal to everyone. And that becomes even more the case the more people set boundaries in their perception

MGS 2 creates these boundaries it self. MGS 2 can be divided in 2 parts, the tanker and the big shell. On the tanker you play as Snake in a beautiful very interactive environment with funny codec calls from Otacon. On the big shell you play as shemale Raiden in a ugly orange not interactive environment and have to listen to Rose going on and on about what day it is. There is absolutely no reason why you want to play as Raiden instead of Snake. So your left waiting to play as Snake asap. The fact that your actually playing a recreation of MGS is extremely obvious at that point. Your never immersed in the world around you so your very aware that its a game. Imagine the matrix being a 2d pixellated mess. Telling people that its actually an artificial world created by a computer wont make them question what reality truly is.

 

[Nesh]

MGS 2 creates these boundaries it self. MGS 2 can be divided in 2 parts, the tanker and the big shell. On the tanker you play as Snake in a beautiful very interactive environment with funny codec calls from Otacon. On the big shell you play as shemale Raiden in a ugly orange not interactive environment and have to listen to Rose going on and on about what day it is. There is absolutely no reason why you want to play as Raiden instead of Snake. So your left waiting to play as Snake asap. The fact that your actually playing a recreation of MGS is extremely obvious at that point. Your never immersed in the world around you so your very aware that its a game. Imagine the matrix being a 2d pixellated mess. Telling people that its actually an artificial world created by a computer wont make them question what reality truly is.

You just proved my point with your reaction

 

[Cornsnake]

Its just a shame they limited themselves to recreating MGS for the story's sake. The gameplay was no longer allowed to be original. And as soon as you realise its MGS you'll know what to expect. But it never has the same quality and novelty. The gameplay broke the story and the story broke the gameplay. MGS still is one of my favourite games. When I bought MGS 2 I finished it 12 hours later. The tanker part was just as good as MGS, the rest of it left me wondering if it would ever get that good again. Thankfully MGS 3 was everything I had hoped for and MGS 4 looks like that again.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

On the big shell you play as shemale Raiden in a ugly orange not interactive environment and have to listen to Rose going on and on about what day it is. There is absolutely no reason why you want to play as Raiden instead of Snake. So your left waiting to play as Snake asap.

What you've described I have to say is a bad design choice. Consider a novel where the author has the main character living a very boring summer. That author has the cunning plan to convey the protagonist's sense of boredom so the reader can really relate to it, by writing two chapters of extremely dull writing, poorly written, repetitive, not moving the sotry or anything at all along. Yes, it embodies the protagonist's experience/ Yes, the reader will be bored just as the character is. But its stopped being entertaining, and yet that's the purpose of the book! If a reader isn't enjoying reading the book, it's failing. Even uncomfortable situations within the book that the reader might not like will be involving and drive them forward. You can't ever bore your audience with your media, or you risj them putting it down and doing something else instead. A game shouldn't place you in control of a character you don't enjoy playing, and renders the game a chore at that point with the player slugging through it to get to something that does appeal to them.

As it was, I experienced the Raiden part just as game, perhaps having not played enough MGS to notice any repetition. MGS2 was entertaining for me, but then I also missed all the clever virtual existence references

 

[deepbrown]

What you've described I have to say is a bad design choice. Consider a novel where the author has the main character living a very boring summer. That author has the cunning plan to convey the protagonist's sense of boredom so the reader can really relate to it, by writing two chapters of extremely dull writing, poorly written, repetitive, not moving the sotry or anything at all along. Yes, it embodies the protagonist's experience/ Yes, the reader will be bored just as the character is. But its stopped being entertaining, and yet that's the purpose of the book! If a reader isn't enjoying reading the book, it's failing. Even uncomfortable situations within the book that the reader might not like will be involving and drive them forward. You can't ever bore your audience with your media, or you risj them putting it down and doing something else instead. A game shouldn't place you in control of a character you don't enjoy playing, and renders the game a chore at that point with the player slugging through it to get to something that does appeal to them.

As it was, I experienced the Raiden part just as game, perhaps having not played enough MGS to notice any repetition. MGS2 was entertaining for me, but then I also missed all the clever virtual existence references

As much as your examples are amusing the read - there's always a problem with them. A book is not a game - the relation you have given is very slim, and though it might not work in a book, it worked perfectly well in MGS2. Moreover, i don't think the Raiden sections were unfun (which i think you agree with) - I think they included all of the great MGS gameplay - the glorification of Snake, and seeing him from the outside was very well performed.

 

[patsu]

Its just a shame they limited themselves to recreating MGS for the story's sake. The gameplay was no longer allowed to be original. And as soon as you realise its MGS you'll know what to expect. But it never has the same quality and novelty. The gameplay broke the story and the story broke the gameplay. MGS still is one of my favourite games. When I bought MGS 2 I finished it 12 hours later. The tanker part was just as good as MGS, the rest of it left me wondering if it would ever get that good again. Thankfully MGS 3 was everything I had hoped for and MGS 4 looks like that again.

That's not exactly right.

Do you have a PSP ? The MGS gameplay on PSP are very different from the console version. That's why I love that studio.

 

[Cornsnake]

That's not exactly right.

Do you have a PSP ? The MGS gameplay on PSP are very different from the console version. That's why I love that studio.

I was talking about the part of MGS 2 that was made to recreate the first Metal Gear Solid that took place on Shadow Mosis Island. They couldn't do anything that was to different from that, and at the same had to fit in everything that did happen. Especially the cyborg ninja felt very forced in.

 

[patsu]

My bad ! Is Raiden really that bad to play ? Does he have any special ability ?

 

[Cornsnake]

Raiden has all the same moves as Snake except he does a cartwheel when Snake would roll. But both moves knock down an enemy. The problem was that it was just hard to identify with the guy. And he's nowhere near as cool as Snake. Raiden is somewhat hated by western games. Kojima never revealed him before the release of MGS 2. Even showing footage of areas with Snake in the scene where in the game you can only get as Raiden. Everyone was very surprised when they suddenly had to play as Raiden, and most weren't happy. I wouldn't be surprised if the people who had a similar experience as me were the majority.

 

[patsu]

I see. The outcome would have been different if Raiden has a different and fun mechanics (like how Dante and Nero share the same stage in DMC4).