Metal Gear Solid 4 post:#1067

[catisfit]

I don't know how any other method of storytelling would protray MGS2s story for example, where the whole idea was that the target of the story wasn't Raiden, but the player.

It wasn't just Raiden's realisation that

Spoiler

the Colonel wasn't who he thought, and was actually an AI feeding him information

which made the story, it was the player suddenly questioning what exactly they'd been doing for the past 10 hours. That coupled with the

Spoiler

Fission Mailed screens where the game was still playable

broke the fourth wall and got across the point that it was the player who should be questioning the value and source of information. Raiden was only a vessel for the story, a character who could ask the stupid questions to make the player understand.

It was pretty cool completing the game with the sense that you'd been played, and you didn't really know how

Besides, I'd like to see an explanation why being locked in a room with NPCs who talk at you while you can't interact with them in any way, is any better than a cutscene. I'd prefer a beautifully realised cinematic than being stuck in first person, with the illusion that I'm still in control when in reality I'm not able to do anything (e.g. Half-Life 2).

Oh and OPM UK is usually pretty fair. They gave Resistance 8/10 and recommended CoD3 (9/10) as their launch day shooter, which probably didn't go down too well with their "superiors"

 

[Nesh]

I don't know how any other method of storytelling would protray MGS2s story for example, where the whole idea was that the target of the story wasn't Raiden, but the player.

It wasn't just Raiden's realisation that

Spoiler

the Colonel wasn't who he thought, and was actually an AI feeding him information

which made the story, it was the player suddenly questioning what exactly they'd been doing for the past 10 hours. That coupled with the

Spoiler

Fission Mailed screens where the game was still playable

broke the fourth wall and got across the point that it was the player who should be questioning the value and source of information. Raiden was only a vessel for the story, a character who could ask the stupid questions to make the player understand.

It was pretty cool completing the game with the sense that you'd been played, and you didn't really know how

Besides, I'd like to see an explanation why being locked in a room with NPCs who talk at you while you can't interact with them in any way, is any better than a cutscene. I'd prefer a beautifully realised cinematic than being stuck in first person, with the illusion that I'm still in control when in reality I'm not able to do anything (e.g. Half-Life 2).

Well said :smile:

 

[dobwal]

Well, that's your opinion, you obviously haven't got to the point of mastering MGS3's gameplay and the hidden layers of depth the gameplay has to offer.
Like any hardcore game (Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden) MGS can seem frustrating at firts, untill suddenly everything just "clicks" and a completely new face of the game is revealed and you begin to understand the how what and the why and you begin to make the rules and not the game.

That's the beauty of these games, they are more than meets the eye, you just have to want/be able to dig deeper.

What depth? Comparing MGS4 to Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden is almost like comparing checkers to chess outside of the boss battles.

I like the boss battles and I like the cutscenes but there is no meat and potatoes in the main gameplay portions, which is basically unchanged in its delivery since MGS1.

 

[patsu]

PlayStation Official Magazine (UK): 10/10
* PlayStation Official Magazine (US): 10/10
* PlayStation Official Magazine (Italy): 10/10
* PlayStation Official Magazine (Dutch): 9.6/10
* Level (Sweden): 10/10
* Joypad (France): 19/20
* Jeuxvideo Magazine (France): 18/20

Obv we can ignore first four - though I do remember OPM UK being harsh on PS3 exclusives....or at least not inflated.

Not bad at all

GamePro: 5/5

Every once in a long while, a game will come along and change all the rules. Final Fantasy 7 transformed the RPG genre. Resident Evil helped create a new sub-category of gaming - survival horror - and Grand Theft Auto 3 single-handedly reshaped the gaming landscape. And now comes Metal Gear Solid 4, a game whose potential influence on the current state of gaming is nothing short of tectonic.

With that kind of quality, Sony and Konami are hyping MGS4 now.

Here's the famous "street magician", Cyril Tamayam, pulling Snake's Bandana from the video game in Japan:
http://bbs.a9vg.com/read.php?tid=901379&fpage=1

 

[Shifty Geezer]

...it was the player suddenly questioning what exactly they'd been doing for the past 10 hours.

That may have been the theory, but in some cases (mine!) I only questioned the sanity of the devs!

 

[deepbrown]

That may have been the theory, but in some cases (mine!) I only questioned the sanity of the devs!

So being philosophical now makes you insane...like it. It's times like these that I realize the only people who have their heads in the clouds and those who dont like/understand philosophy

 

[el_rika]

What depth? Comparing MGS4 to Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden is almost like comparing checkers to chess outside of the boss battles.

I like the boss battles and I like the cutscenes but there is no meat and potatoes in the main gameplay portions, which is basically unchanged in its delivery since MGS1.

You obviously do not know what MGS3 is all about and how many tricks you have at your disposal in any given situation. The game is much much more in depth that it seems at first glance. Watch some pros playing it and you'll see what i mean.
And i'm not comparing MGS3 to DMC, just naming other games in the hardcore realm, that need to be "mastered" to be fully enjoyed.

 

[RenegadeRocks]

You obviously do not know what MGS3 is all about and how many tricks you have at your disposal in any given situation. The game is much much more in depth that it seems at first glance. Watch some pros playing it and you'll see what i mean.
And i'm not comparing MGS3 to DMC, just naming other games in the hardcore realm, that need to be "mastered" to be fully enjoyed.

I agree! MGS3 has a lot LOT more options and depth in term of gameplay.
I realised this more, as I had played MGS3 before and now when i am playing MGS2, I feel very limited in terms of what I can do, Its as if someone has tied my hands. It took me a while to get used to it.I can't interrogate gaurds, can't hold them in chokehold, can't use them as shield in a gunfight, can't kill someone with a knife quietly after I have knocked him down, among other things.

When you put the disk in , yes, they seem to be the same, in fact I said the same to myself when I popped in MGS2, but only later did i realise how much more polished the gameplay of MGS3 is !

BTW, I am at the metal Gear ray boss battle . Any tips?!?!? I don't have any chaff grenades, and those buggers fire a lot of homing rockets
Also, without any spoilers, can you tell me whether all this that I played

Spoiler

is just a simulation?!?! I mean the Colonel is just an AI replying to me, so, basically I am a puppet of the Patriots, so, is this all simulation or it is that I was just used in all this real world scenario by the patriots by using an AI voice? What purpose does my being there serve?I didn't do anything substantial other than killing Fatman, and maybe Vamp(he is back in MGS4, so?)or is this all a trainig method? but then Solidus can't tell me inside a training that it is a training? Or is it that I am supposed to be confused right now, and it will be revealed later, or have I misunderstood something?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

So being philosophical now makes you insane...

Well a lot of the philosophers were off their rocker...

But in this case, it's a matter of placement as much as anything. The game experience was 'broken' with an unexpected, unrelated, change in the experience. What if Halo3 was interrupted near the end with a scene of grunts in different fashion costumes carefully constructed into a poignant statement about the nature of fashion and culture? Making that statement then and there, even if it's a very intelligent matter of discussion, would leave a lot of players scratching their head as to why put it in a shooter and break up the shooting? And if you were to pick up a philosophy book and in amongst the musings of Descartes, were to find the academic narrative became an action adventure with the Philosopher stealthing through a nuclear complex to defeat his own clone, would that not leave you questioning the presentation of the author? Would you like it if your favourite sport was interrupted with the players breaking into terrible song as a visual discourse on the nature of modern entertainment?

The intentions of the MGS2 team were probably lost on a lot of people. If they were targeting Philosophy majors, they were marginalizing the appeal of their product and losing the impact of their message and everyone else!

 

[StefanS]

BTW, I am at the metal Gear ray boss battle . Any tips?!?!? I don't have any chaff grenades, and those buggers fire a lot of homing rockets

Just keep running, use the bazooka once to open their "head" and then blast a shot right into it. Once one of the gears move into the ring it gets really easy. Just evade his attacks, blast his head until he's done. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Nesh]

If I remember correctly I targeted their knees. Once they were hit they leaned with their mouths open giving me the perfect chance to target their heads.

Shooting their knees would often cancel some of their attacks too if memory serves me right

 

[Nesh]

Well a lot of the philosophers were off their rocker...

But in this case, it's a matter of placement as much as anything. The game experience was 'broken' with an unexpected, unrelated, change in the experience. What if Halo3 was interrupted near the end with a scene of grunts in different fashion costumes carefully constructed into a poignant statement about the nature of fashion and culture? Making that statement then and there, even if it's a very intelligent matter of discussion, would leave a lot of players scratching their head as to why put it in a shooter and break up the shooting? And if you were to pick up a philosophy book and in amongst the musings of Descartes, were to find the academic narrative became an action adventure with the Philosopher stealthing through a nuclear complex to defeat his own clone, would that not leave you questioning the presentation of the author? Would you like it if your favourite sport was interrupted with the players breaking into terrible song as a visual discourse on the nature of modern entertainment?

The intentions of the MGS2 team were probably lost on a lot of people. If they were targeting Philosophy majors, they were marginalizing the appeal of their product and losing the impact of their message and everyone else!

The MGS series always had their themes from beginning to end. It wasnt as much as an unexpected surprise. It didnt start as a normal action game and then suddenly went philosophical. The whole narrative was preparing you for something bigger at the end. Even the intro had its reference to the evolution of information and culture

 

[catisfit]

The MGS series always had their themes from beginning to end. It wasnt as much as an unexpected surprise. It didnt start as a normal action game and then suddenly went philosophical. The whole narrative was preparing you for something bigger at the end. Even the intro had its reference to the evolution of information and culture

Agreed. It was not "an unexpected, unrelated, change in the experience", all through the game

Spoiler

the Colonel is referring to situations as "not being part of the simulation", and Raiden repeatedly asking "what are you not telling me?"

. Fair enough some people might have missed this or passed it off as unimportant, especially if they hadn't played the original and didn't know what to expect from Metal Gear, and just treated the story as a reason to shoot stuff like most other games, but there are consistent clues that there is more than meets the eye to the situation, which is revealed in the final part of the game.

 

[catisfit]

Also, without any spoilers, can you tell me whether all this that I played...

I think the idea of the game is to hit you with all that information deliberately to make you ask those questions - the answers will become clearer when you've completed the game (although in true Metal Gear fasion, not entirely clear )

 

[Nesh]

he might probably have to finish it twice or more to see the picture better. I enjoyed the MGS series so much that I finished them countless of times.

Every time I played the game I was like "OOOOOOoooooooohhhh NOW I get that part!!" or "I didn notice that before". The same thing has been expressed by many others as well

It is unbelievable how much attention has been given to the plot in every MGS game

 

[RenegadeRocks]

Well a lot of the philosophers were off their rocker...

But in this case, it's a matter of placement as much as anything. The game experience was 'broken' with an unexpected, unrelated, change in the experience. What if Halo3 was interrupted near the end with a scene of grunts in different fashion costumes carefully constructed into a poignant statement about the nature of fashion and culture? Making that statement then and there, even if it's a very intelligent matter of discussion, would leave a lot of players scratching their head as to why put it in a shooter and break up the shooting? And if you were to pick up a philosophy book and in amongst the musings of Descartes, were to find the academic narrative became an action adventure with the Philosopher stealthing through a nuclear complex to defeat his own clone, would that not leave you questioning the presentation of the author? Would you like it if your favourite sport was interrupted with the players breaking into terrible song as a visual discourse on the nature of modern entertainment?

The intentions of the MGS2 team were probably lost on a lot of people. If they were targeting Philosophy majors, they were marginalizing the appeal of their product and losing the impact of their message and everyone else!

I am sorry Shifty, but you are saying that we should not make Kindergarten kids play games which teach them about science and maths, they should be given pure play when they are playing, is it? Then when we are teaching them we should not let them have fun in between, is it?
I will say one thing, this is exactly the syndrome that B_grade American films and games suffer from. "This is a gory game, put as much gore as possible! Nothing else, they want gore!" makes a very boring Gory game. "They want guts spilt on the floor kinda film, they don't want a story, so, throw guts everywhere!" makes a moronic horror film, which doesn't scare a bit. This is the case with all the numerous sequels of movies and games we get.

People like Scrabble, which teaches and is fun at the same time.
Undertones are very important, as they are what makes the product unique. I was surprised out of my head when Colonel asked me to switch off my console in MGS2! I even switched it off once to see what happens! The game invaded reality, and mind you it made a lot of repercussions later. When it was revealed that the Colonel is just an AI and all this just might be a simulation, it made me think outside the game because the game had just entered into my reality. Had that little incident not happened(turning off the console) I would have just taken it as another damn game story.But that one incident made me involved.
If that is not understanding human psyche then what is??!

It is not that to experience philosophy I need to put in a philosophy game. Philosophy is not about aliens that we study it seperately. Philosophy is about us all, about humans, about our life, It pervades our life completely and there is no point in saying that Kojima should not have a "Philosophy" message in his game story. Anyways, Do you REALLY want a tailor made story according to your needs? What fun would that be playing?!? It is the unknown that interests us not monotony!

 

[Nesh]

Couldnt agree more

This the exact same reason I love MGS approach. It is not trying to be just a game, and many dislked it because they had that stereotype impression about what games are and how they should be.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Agreed. It was not "an unexpected, unrelated, change in the experience", all through the game. Fair enough some people might have missed this or passed it off as unimportant, ...

Which is why I said

That may have been the theory, but in some cases (mine!) I only questioned the sanity of the devs!

Has anyone got stats on how many players followed the story and appreciated the philosophical undertones, and the dramatic shift from stealth simulation to post-modern commentary?

...but you are saying that we should not make Kindergarten kids play games which teach them about science and maths, they should be given pure play when they are playing, is it?...

I wasn't saying that at all!

People like Scrabble, which teaches and is fun at the same time.

Scrabble is a word game. If midpoint in Scrabble all those people who like and are expecting a word game have to stop and have a dancing competition, do you think it'd be as popular?! And that doesn't mean that people who wouldn't want a dance competition in the middle of a game of Scrabble hate dance, or wouldn't dance in other circumstances. Only that it'd be misapplied in that context.

Had that little incident not happened(turning off the console) I would have just taken it as another damn game story.But that one incident made me involved.
If that is not understanding human psyche then what is??!

And if you got it, great. Not everyone did though. That was my point. If you didn't, for which there's lots of possible reasons, than that wonderful philosophical moment was lost and it became a head-scratching moment.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Is the story and quality of writing in Metal Gear really that good, or if I play it will I be just as pissed off as I am with Final Fantasy? Some people hold Final Fantasy up as a benchmark in video game story telling, but I view it as a shining example of what is wrong with video game story telling.

 

[patsu]

Only you can answer that question for yourself.