Mass storage in next generation consoles.

[Geeforcer]

Feel free to correct/add

What do we know about mass storage:

Xbox360 has a removable 20GB hard drive. There are some questions regarding whether it will be included with the system or sold as add-on. Right now, I am leading toward it being included, due to emphasis on Live, Xbox backwards compatibility, etc. For what it's worth, an article in the new Wired lists X36 as having an "20 GB (upgradeable) hadrdrive" as opposed to "No hard drive" for PS2 in the brief specification comparisons table.

PS3 will have an option to connect an HD, but it looks like Sony has yet to figure out whether it will have one build-in standard or not. Storage can also be provided via a plethora of memory slots. Considering that Flash/SD/Memstick prices have been dropping (As can be expected of a semiconductor product), this might be an attractive option. I don’t know why proprietary memory cards in this day and age.

Revolution is set to include 512Mb of nonvolatile memory. Other mass storage options are unknown.

BTW, what happened to the rumors of Xbox having a 4GB nonvolatile array? I recall speculation about some company set to provide those.

 

[Acert93]

Xbox360 has a removable 20GB hard drive. There are some questions regarding whether it will be included with the system or sold as add-on. Right now, I am leading toward it being included, due to emphasis on Live, Xbox backwards compatibility, etc. For what it's worth, an article in the new Wired lists X36 as having an "20 GB (upgradeable) hadrdrive" as opposed to "No hard drive" for PS2 in the brief specification comparisons table.

Their official specs say the 20GB HDD is included, so that should clear up any questions on whether it is included. I think the speculation of whether it would be sold separately came from before the MTV release and specs... The "upgradable" part refers to the fact it can be removed from the system and you can add a bigger HDD if you like. I think this may become an important feature if/when they offer TIVO like functions to record TV shows. The HDD did not look too big either, which makes me wonder if the iPod killer rumors may have some truth to them...

Also, the Xbox 360 should be able to connect with your PC. MS has been pretty quiet on this so far, but there have been bits and pieces (like comments about needing Windows XP) and the fact the controller has a Windows Icon on a button.

I wait with anticipation for what Sony will do in regards to the HDD. I believe large storage medium is a killer feature for online play in general (not all games, but in general nice), microtransactions, expansions, special release content, etc... Not including a HDD in the PS3 saves them money but also begins to limit functionality because you rely on users to have a large memory card dedicated to the PS3 or to buy a HDD. And since they have stated they are not forcing developers to go any one direction with online I do not see them forcing HDD as a feature of online play (i.e. if MS did not include a HDD, they could have included it with a Live bundle and made it a requirement for online). Not including the HDD means it may just run into the same issues the PS2 HDD did and be under utilized overall.

I am also sure that Sony would be happier with people buying Sony brand memory sticks because they make a killing on them.

 

[jvd]

am also sure that Sony would be happier with people buying Sony brand memory sticks because they make a killing on them.

thats a double edge sword though


Memory sticks are crazy expensive when you think of it . Ms has a 20 gig . At the current price of 1 gig memory sticks it would cost 2k for a user to come close to that storage capacity buying memory sticks ( 100x 20 ) So i really don't see the memory sticks being used for the bigger transactions like lvls . But things like jerseys for the team players i can see happening .

I would think you would see sony making alot of money off a 40 gig drive if they price it at 100$ or a 60 gig drive at 100$ . For ms they are going to have to start at a 60 gig drive imho . 40 gigs is just not a good value to charge another 100$ for . Unless you can hook up more than 1 hardrive .

 

[Riddlewire]

I'm still not convinced that the HDD is included with the X360. Here's what I think is happening.
There were rumors a few weeks ago that MS was going to be selling two different versions of the X360. The base unit would come without a HDD and there would be a 'premium' version that included a HDD and some other stuff. I also remember reading that MS intended for the premium package to make up 80% of the units on store shelves at launch. I think that MS has decided to hold off on selling the base unit during launch and for the rest of the year. The only X360 available in 2005 will actually just be the premium package, which includes the HDD. They want to see how well those sell first. If sales are sluggish, they will provide the base package starting in 2006. I think that if X360 retails in the U.S. for $399, that's probably a confirmation that what we are getting is just the premium package. North American consumers are pretty price sensitive when it comes to entertainment products. They have come to expect a $299 price for a new console. I think sales would be pretty miserable this Fall at the $399 price point.
But, if X360 launches this Fall with the HDD at $299, then everything I've said above is clearly wrong.

 

[Geeforcer]

Acert, thanks for clearing up 360 HDD situation.

I think it will be a big mistake for Sony not to include at least some amout of mass storage with the system.

 

[Acert93]

They have come to expect a $299 price for a new console. I think sales would be pretty miserable this Fall at the $399 price point.

I agree, sales would be pretty poor at $399 in the US. That would kind of dent their plan of an early head start, would it not?

But they are on record of aiming for 3M world wide this holiday season, so maybe with a world wide launch (i.e. North America and Europe with 1,000 units shipped to Japan ) they can push 3M out at a high price tag if they have a few killer titles and enough hype. But then what? Hold a $399 price tag until fall 2006? :?

If MS is serious about getting a lead they would keep the HDD in and offer the system at $299, $349 at most. When PS3 launches go under them by $50, and every time they cut their price cut yours. In conjunction offer a "Media Center" edition with a LARGE HDD, TIVO like functions, and a BR/HD DVD player and charge $50-100 more than the PS3. That way they can pin them down low with the cost conscious hard core gamer, and can offer a nice media device/game player at a premium. I do not own a TV but being able to record TV shows to a large HDD seems pretty popular (although that may NOT work well on a game system... hmmm)

It will be interesting to see what exactly MS does.

 

[jvd]

I'm still not convinced that the HDD is included with the X360.

could be but i doubt it

Here's what I think is happening.
There were rumors a few weeks ago that MS was going to be selling two different versions of the X360. The base unit would come without a HDD and there would be a 'premium' version that included a HDD and some other stuff.

yea but now they are saying the hardrive is upgradable . So let me throw this at you and see if it sticks

x360 300$ 20 gig hardrive . x360 400$ 60gig hardrive

North American consumers are pretty price sensitive when it comes to entertainment products. They have come to expect a $299 price for a new console. I think sales would be pretty miserable this Fall at the $399 price point.
But, if X360 launches this Fall with the HDD at $299, then everything I've said above is clearly wrong.

I agree with your points but your missing xbox live in that .

They want every game live enable and they want the casual gamers and the volocity girls of the world using xbox live for everything from texas hold em to gears of war .

They need a hardrive in there for base function . A 20 gig hardrive should now be extremely cheap and its a good gate way into the xbox live world and if they wnat to get to 1 billion (not going to happen ) people they need to give everyone the features they want

I think they will launch as i said above a 300$ 20 gig drive , 400$ 60 gig drive system . Then they can drop the prices of the system and make new packages .

So in 2007 if the 60 gig model costs the same as the 20 gig model to make they can drop the 20 gig model. Move the 60 gig to 300$ and move in a 80 or a 100 gig version into the 400$ price market . That way if they loose money on the cheaper version but make money on the more expensive version they can balance out the losses or break even

 

[rabidrabbit]

I would like if xbox360 and PS3 came with two versions at launch.
One with and the other without HD.
If the bundled HD's are about 20Gigs and they are standard so that I can buy one from any manufacturer and any size, I'd rather buy a console without the bundled 20Gig and buy a bigger one.

What if I buy a xbox360 with bundled 20Gig HD and I want to replace it with 160Gig HD, then the 20Gig would be left totally useless as there is only one "hd bay" in the consoles.
I want as big as I think I'll need for the consoles life right from the beginning, I don't want an extra 20Gig lying around useless when I replace it with a bigger one.

 

[jvd]

I would like if xbox360 and PS3 came with two versions at launch.
One with and the other without HD.

would be good for u but splits the user base which is bad for sony and ms . But more importantly ms who seems to be pushing this as thier thing . If it is a 20 gig at 300$ though i don't see a big deal . Just ditch it and buy the upgrade (which isn't going to be a standard drive just look at the casing )

 

[Coola]

I'm still not convinced that the HDD is included with the X360.

could be but i doubt it

Here's what I think is happening.
There were rumors a few weeks ago that MS was going to be selling two different versions of the X360. The base unit would come without a HDD and there would be a 'premium' version that included a HDD and some other stuff.

yea but now they are saying the hardrive is upgradable . So let me throw this at you and see if it sticks

x360 300$ 20 gig hardrive . x360 400$ 60gig hardrive

North American consumers are pretty price sensitive when it comes to entertainment products. They have come to expect a $299 price for a new console. I think sales would be pretty miserable this Fall at the $399 price point.
But, if X360 launches this Fall with the HDD at $299, then everything I've said above is clearly wrong.

I agree with your points but your missing xbox live in that .

They want every game live enable and they want the casual gamers and the volocity girls of the world using xbox live for everything from texas hold em to gears of war .

They need a hardrive in there for base function . A 20 gig hardrive should now be extremely cheap and its a good gate way into the xbox live world and if they wnat to get to 1 billion (not going to happen ) people they need to give everyone the features they want

I think they will launch as i said above a 300$ 20 gig drive , 400$ 60 gig drive system . Then they can drop the prices of the system and make new packages .

So in 2007 if the 60 gig model costs the same as the 20 gig model to make they can drop the 20 gig model. Move the 60 gig to 300$ and move in a 80 or a 100 gig version into the 400$ price market . That way if they loose money on the cheaper version but make money on the more expensive version they can balance out the losses or break even

peter moore has already stated that they meant 1b consumers for the whole gaming industry but that they were going to lead them [the industry] there.

 

[cybamerc]

Revolution is set to include 512Mb of nonvolatile memory. Other mass storage options are unknown.

It also supports SD cards.

BTW, what happened to the rumors of Xbox having a 4GB nonvolatile array? I recall speculation about some company set to provide those.

It was rumored that they might go with flash RAM instead of a HDD but in the end they clearly decided on going with a HDD. The mem cards will probably get as much use as those on Xbox.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I am also sure that Sony would be happier with people buying Sony brand memory sticks because they make a killing on them.

Why would you buy expensive memory sticks when PS3 also accepts CF and SD?

 

[one]

Revolution is set to include 512Mb of nonvolatile memory.

It's 512MBytes, not megabit.

 

[hey69]

I'm still not convinced that the HDD is included with the X360.

could be but i doubt it

Here's what I think is happening.
There were rumors a few weeks ago that MS was going to be selling two different versions of the X360. The base unit would come without a HDD and there would be a 'premium' version that included a HDD and some other stuff.

yea but now they are saying the hardrive is upgradable . So let me throw this at you and see if it sticks

x360 300$ 20 gig hardrive . x360 400$ 60gig hardrive

North American consumers are pretty price sensitive when it comes to entertainment products. They have come to expect a $299 price for a new console. I think sales would be pretty miserable this Fall at the $399 price point.
But, if X360 launches this Fall with the HDD at $299, then everything I've said above is clearly wrong.

I agree with your points but your missing xbox live in that .

They want every game live enable and they want the casual gamers and the volocity girls of the world using xbox live for everything from texas hold em to gears of war .

They need a hardrive in there for base function . A 20 gig hardrive should now be extremely cheap and its a good gate way into the xbox live world and if they wnat to get to 1 billion (not going to happen ) people they need to give everyone the features they want

I think they will launch as i said above a 300$ 20 gig drive , 400$ 60 gig drive system . Then they can drop the prices of the system and make new packages .

So in 2007 if the 60 gig model costs the same as the 20 gig model to make they can drop the 20 gig model. Move the 60 gig to 300$ and move in a 80 or a 100 gig version into the 400$ price market . That way if they loose money on the cheaper version but make money on the more expensive version they can balance out the losses or break even

why would they increase the hardisk size in coming years?

the cost over a 20gig to 80gig isnt big for a manufacturer or a wholesale buyer

 

[wco81]

I am also sure that Sony would be happier with people buying Sony brand memory sticks because they make a killing on them.

Why would you buy expensive memory sticks when PS3 also accepts CF and SD?

The thing I wonder is if you can save games to anything other than Memory Sticks.

Remember, the PS2 Memory Cards have Magic Gate on them. Why they require DRM for game saves, who knows.

But it wouldn't be surprising if you can onlly do game saves on MS while the SD and CF cards are for importing photos and other content from cameras and cell phones. In one of the interviews, they cited the phones in Japan which use SD and CF cards.

But that just begs the question. If they want you to import photos and other content, you need mass storage like an HDD...

 

[Gerry]

Edge magazine this month categorically stated that the Xbox360 would ship with a 20Gb hard disk as standard. So I'd say it's very, very likely it'll ship with every model.

Which is the sensible way of doing it I think.

 

[wco81]

Any PVR functionality for the X360 will probably be provided through a Media Center PC, not direct inputs. For one thing, you'd need tuners of some kind and there doesn't seem to be any kind of expansion interface?

Or at least a coax input? Or a Cable Card-compatible interface?

Not to mention most HD content will require DVI/HDMI.

So I think their idea is the MCE PC will get the tuners and be able to access all the encrypted content from cable and satellite and then stream it to the X360.

If you think about it, they actually make profits from each MCE sale, with very good margins. Encumbering the console with more hardware hits margins the other way.

Plus nobody would use a console as their full-time PVR since gaming and recording probably can't be done simultaneously. My Tivos could be recording at unexpected times because they move shows around. So nobody wants to worry about whether their PVR is going to interrupt their gaming or vice versa.

 

[Kolgar]

Interestingly enough, Faf said on another board recently that he has reason to believe the HD will not come standard with 360 - or else, maybe there will be two different versions.

He didn't give specifics, just said he has reason to believe it. Given his position in the industry, that perked my ears.

 

[one]

I am also sure that Sony would be happier with people buying Sony brand memory sticks because they make a killing on them.

Why would you buy expensive memory sticks when PS3 also accepts CF and SD?

The thing I wonder is if you can save games to anything other than Memory Sticks.

SCEI CTO said you can.

 

[wco81]

That's the interview I read where I got that impression, that SD and CF are there for convenience but for gaming content, you might need MS?

Q. Judging from the message that you recommend PS3 as a digital media center, it's very natural, in a sense, that it has an SD card slot. But in a Sony-branded product as a default feature? It's unprecedent, isn't it?

A. To begin with we expect use with a digital camera as you can see from the fact that it has a CF slot too. Also, SD card is in many devices including mobile phones. Users will be annoyed if media have to be converted except for memsticks. Of course you want to put save data in all media types, don't you?

Q. I can see you need those 3 slots to support digital cameras, but is it possible to put music purchased via EMD onto an SD card by this SD slot?

A. It's dependent on DRM rather than on the slot types. If you need Magic Gate, you have to use a memstick. All media types including memstick are equivalent except for such aspects.

I see "Magic Gate" on the on the PS2 Memory Card. So are they somehow requiring MG DRM for game saves?

For that matter, with all those USB ports, why don't they just support all the key drives which are so popular? Answer would be, they'd rather sell the media in which they have economic interests, i.e. Memory Stick for Sony and that proprietary flash memory thing MS seems to have for the X360.[/b]