latest quarter shipment nums

[NathansFortune]

Are there any indicators anywhere as to how much revenue blu-ray related items are now netting Sony? Either from royalties, blank media sales, etc... It seems difficult to find this info, plus I hear conflicting opinions on it, stuff like Sony making the least percentage cut of all the blu-ray partners. No clue where the truth lies though.

Sony are the second largest IP holder in Blu-ray after Panasonic. They hold a major stake in Blu-ray from not only media sales at their movie studio and electronics sales, but licence fees gained. They also make a significant amount of money from licensing their Blu-ray production software and encoding products (for which they are one of the industry leaders) like Blu-Print and their other professional solutions.

The key companies in the foundation of Blu-ray and the principle licence holders are Panasonic, Sony, Sharp, Thompson, Hitachi, Pioneer and Philips.

The reason for the conflicting opinions is that Sony were offering a discount on their licence fees to attract companies in for a quite a while, this has ended now.

Obviously no one can say how much Blu-ray as a whole has contributed to Sony's bottom line, but my guess is that it will have been a net contributor by the time it is phased out because of prolonged physical media sales, pushing 1080p TVs and now pushing 3D into the home. Blu-ray is a multi-faceted strategy about Sony and other electronics companies pushing their electronics, the PS3 is a part of that and I'm willing to bet that Sony will sell more 3DTV sets to PS3 owners than the general population bringing in another net contribution to their bottom line which will go largely unnoticed.

 

[woundingchaney]

So it's Sony's fault that Xbox 360 doesn't sell well in Japan? Plenty of American companies have no trouble selling their products in Japan, such as Apple and Harley-Davidson. It's also more like 20%, not 33% like you said.

Does Harley have a large consumer market in Japan?

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I recall discussion of Sony's investment in BRD not being in the licensing fees, of which as you say they aren't major benefactors, but in fabrication and component provision. I'm sure Carl B knows where to find this info in Sony's financials.

And it's interesting that their manufacturing division for BRD was one with some of the heavier losses at least up to and including Holiday '09. I haven't really looked at Sony financials recently to see if it's been improving much. BRD's, up to now, glacial overtake of DVD hasn't exactly helped. Although I suppose there are signs that adoption is possibly finally starting to speed up.

I have a feeling it'll be some years yet before BRD starts to pay off the investment required to have it featured in PS3 (large initial investment, large initial retail price, and low initial adoption of PS3 which put it at a disadvantage to it's competitors).

Regards,
SB

 

[AmFreak]

Sorry, I was talking total console market, not just PS.

I'd like to also add that as the total market has ~doubled since PS1 that this again shows PS3 lacking.

I know, but on what numbers are u basing ur assertion ?
If you look at the numbers you see that every console that u can get numbers for sold better in EU that Japan. I mean the PS1 was like 70% of the market at it's time and it sold close to double the amount of Japan in EU:
PlayStation – 102.49 million shipped, as of 31 March 2005 (Japan: 21.59, US: 40.78, Europe: 40.12)[27]
including PS one – 28.15 million shipped, as of 31 March 2005[27]
So how in hell could it be US45%/JP35%/EU20% in 2001 ?

 

[function]

One big difference between the Xbox 360 and PS3 is that MS were dead set on pushing the 360 into profitability far sooner and with lower initial losses, while Sony were prepared to dump staggering levels of cash overboard to maintain market share.

If MS had been willing to sell $150 Elites and make Xbox Live free there wouldn't be much of a contest right now (Japan aside of course), but $299 Xboxes, pay-for-play and Sony's admirable commitment to the PS3 are big factors in things playing out the way they have.

 

[holsty101]

BRD's, up to now, glacial overtake of DVD hasn't exactly helped. Although I suppose there are signs that adoption is possibly finally starting to speed up.

I'd say that the reason blurays overtake of dvd looks "glacial" has more to do with the dvd market being so large rather than bluray uptake being so slow.

There is some (perhaps not conclusive) evidence out there that suggests bluray uptake is outpacing dvd at the same point in their production cycles, although the waters here are obviously muddied further by the HD format war and the way PS3 sales can be included/excluded as people see fit.

However quick blurays uptake is (or isn't) it's hardly gonna instantaneously overtake the behemoth that has been dvd.

 

[goonergaz]

I know, but on what numbers are u basing ur assertion ?
If you look at the numbers you see that every console that u can get numbers for sold better in EU that Japan. I mean the PS1 was like 70% of the market at it's time and it sold close to double the amount of Japan in EU:
PlayStation – 102.49 million shipped, as of 31 March 2005 (Japan: 21.59, US: 40.78, Europe: 40.12)[27]
including PS one – 28.15 million shipped, as of 31 March 2005[27]
So how in hell could it be US45%/JP35%/EU20% in 2001 ?

I must confess to be using vgchartz, I know it's not ideal but they are not usually massively out - also I made a mistake with the maths - it was actually (home console sales only) U38-J34-E28 (much closer to what I expected TBH - I should have double checked)

However, last year was 48-8-44 and this year so far it's U47-J10-E43 that's a massive shrink at Sony (and Nintys) expemse, and as I said, sales have roughly doubled everywhere but Japan - so the point still stands (even if I was having a bad maths day!)

http://www.vgchartz.com/hw_annual_summary.php

What is your source out of interest?

 

[AmFreak]

Don't ever use / trust vgchartz
My source is Wikipedia / official Sony shipment numbers.

 

[NathansFortune]

I must confess to be using vgchartz, I know it's not ideal but they are not usually massively out - also I made a mistake with the maths - it was actually (home console sales only) U38-J34-E28 (much closer to what I expected TBH - I should have double checked)

However, last year was 48-8-44 and this year so far it's U47-J10-E43 that's a massive shrink at Sony (and Nintys) expemse, and as I said, sales have roughly doubled everywhere but Japan - so the point still stands (even if I was having a bad maths day!)

http://www.vgchartz.com/hw_annual_summary.php

What is your source out of interest?

I wouldn't trust VGChartz, but that is a conversation for another day. Generally though, the console gaming markets haven't doubled in either the USA or Europe/PAL. They are somewhat larger in terms of money spent, but that is more to do with inflation and higher costs. Also, if you look at the latest revenue charts, they have started to decrease as there is more downward pressure on hardware and software pricing.

What you could surmise is that gaming has turned into a more expensive hobby and that gamers are better off than they used to be, but the absolute numbers remain similar to the fifth and sixth generation of consoles. Fifth gen total shipments were around 150m (105m PS, 35m N64, 10m Saturn) and sixth gen was 200m (145m PS2, 25m Xbox, 20m GCN, 10m DC), but that is down to the longevity and godlikeness of the PS2, if you stop counting PS2 when PS3 was released it is closer to 160m. I'm not sure you will find many people that can say the Wii will be as long lasting as the PS2 has been. Anyway, the increase in dollars spent is probably down to a mixture of inflation, and more expensive hardware/software. It is also a trend that has reversed since PS3 and 360 became more affordable.

Also, Japan is moving onto portable hardware and Sony have got a portable console (which is still competitive in Japan). To exclude portables from a comparison and make it home consoles only will make it look more lopsided than it actually is (in terms of dollars spent in each region).

 

[goonergaz]

In my defence this thread is about home consoles - not whole market - that was my mistake initially.

Also you say the market hasn't increased much yet prove yourself wrong by quoting a 30% increase between PS1 era and PS2! Then this gen is aready at PS1 era, what's to say it won't surpass PS2 by a similar margin I fully expect figures of around 250m total h/w sales this gen (W110+P70+X70)...so 150m to 250m - nearly double and Japan has held the market back by remaning stagnent.

Even a quick wiki check shows the vgchartz figures are not a million miles out with PS2+XB1+GC @ ~29m in 2002 and PS3+X360+Wii(+PS2) @ 47m (52m) in 2009.

Please provide some evidence to back your claim as I have - I just want to understand where I am going wrong.

http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/PlayStation_2
http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Xbox
http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Nintendo_GameCube
http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Wii
http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Xbox_360
http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/PlayStation_3

 

[Rolf N]

Even a quick wiki check shows the vgchartz figures are not a million miles out with PS2+XB1+GC @ ~29m in 2002 and PS3+X360+Wii(+PS2) @ 47m (52m) in 2009.

That's because vgc routinely corrects older numbers once actually reliable sources become available. In general though, their first-revision numbers are educated guesses at best.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

That's because vgc routinely corrects older numbers once actually reliable sources become available. In general though, their first-revision numbers are educated guesses at best.

Yes, but that means that the old numbers are usable.

 

[goonergaz]

Well this was my understanding also - but as I've proven the numbers are fairly accurate, I'd just like someone to show evidence to contradict my claims other than "vgchartz sucks"...I mean, even the other mentioned source (wiki) backs up my claim that the market has roughly doubled in US & EU since 2001/2.

edit

http://www.pcvsconsole.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=11067

OK, 50% increase in the US between 2002 and 2009

http://www.pcvsconsole.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=8272&page=45

Stagnent in Japan (606K vs 625k) in the 2 weeks over xmas 2003 vs 2009

 

[AmFreak]

Yes, but that means that the old numbers are usable.

Ya but only the hardware numbers to some extent, cause u normally don't get numbers for software.

it was actually (home console sales only) U38-J34-E28 (much closer to what I expected TBH - I should have double checked)

Even if i use ur VGC numbers i don't get U38/J34/E28 on home consoles.
EU = 5.77 PS2
J = 3.57 PS2 + 0.96 GC + 0.67 PS + 0.33 DC + 0.1 N64 = 5.63

???

 

[goonergaz]

Even if i use ur VGC numbers i don't get U38/J34/E28 on home consoles.
EU = 5.77 PS2
J = 3.57 PS2 + 0.96 GC + 0.67 PS + 0.33 DC + 0.1 N64 = 5.63

???

lol, I have no idea why I'm having such a bad time with maths at the moment - I'm usually pretty good! Sorry.

Either way, the point remains. Japanese market has shrunk (or remained stagnent) whilst US & EU has grown...regardless of my rubbish maths! (I will look back on my notes and try to see where I went wrong)

 

[NathansFortune]

lol, I have no idea why I'm having such a bad time with maths at the moment - I'm usually pretty good! Sorry.

Either way, the point remains. Japanese market has shrunk (or remained stagnent) whilst US & EU has grown...regardless of my rubbish maths! (I will look back on my notes and try to see where I went wrong)

It doesn't remain, all markets have remained pretty constant in terms of units sold (which is what counts in your comparison), the reason people have been talking about growth is because the industry is worth more money, i.e. dollars spent. As I pointed out, that is down to a mixture of inflation and high entry price. I would say the one market that has shown growth in terms of units sold is PAL, while both the USA and Japan have stagnated or receded (meaning WW numbers remain the same). Your central point about Sony being on the losing end is obvious, I mean they went from overwhelming market leader to battling hard for second place.

 

[AmFreak]

The US market has clearly grown - for example the PS1 shipped ~ 30.3 mill. in 5 years 95-2000, the PS2 shipped ~ 41 mill. from 2000-2005. The N64 shipped 20.63 lifetime
the GC ~13 Mill. + 16 Mill Xbox
That makes it 41 Mill + 29 Mill = 70 Mill.
against
30.3 Mill + 20.63 Mill. = 51 Mill.

This generation the Wii shipped 35.20 Mill. (2010/06/30)
Xbox 360: 18.6 Mill. (2009/09/31)
PS3: 12 Mill. (2010/04/14)

What makes it 35.20 Mill + 18.6 Mill + 12 Mill = 65.8 Mill.


* All numbers from Sony Shipments / Wikipedia
What must be said is that it's unclear which of these numbers include Canada.

 

[goonergaz]

It doesn't remain, all markets have remained pretty constant in terms of units sold

eh? did you actually read anything I typed or look at the links? US alone was a 50% increase in home console sales from around 14M units 2003 to 21M units 2009 - nothing constant about that!

 

[dobwal]

eh? did you actually read anything I typed or look at the links? US alone was a 50% increase in home console sales from around 14M units 2003 to 21M units 2009 - nothing constant about that!

You're comparing a 3 year period to a 4 year period.

 

[goonergaz]

You're comparing a 3 year period to a 4 year period.

I think you misunderstand, from 1st Jan 2003 to 31 Dec 2003 (12mths) total home console sales were ~14M units. From 1st Jan 2009 to 31st Dec 2009 (6 years later) total console sales were 21M units for 12 months. Therefore my logic is a ~50% unit sales increase in 2009 compared to 2003 (in the US).