Kutaragi Ken: "PS3's GPU isn't an upgraded PC GPU"

[Farid]

Link to Gamespot
There's already a Topic about this same Gamespot Article, but people only discussed the quote about the PS3 being an Home Entertaiment machine.

Since a lot of people, like Anand for instance, thought that the RSX was a slightly customized G70. I though this quote was interesting:

"Our new GPU has been cocreated with Nvidia. I drew a road map for the future together with [Nvidia president] Jen-Hsun, and the starting point of that road map is the RSX. Many people seem to think that the PS3's GPU is an upgraded model of GPUs for the PC, but it actually has a completely different architecture,"

Now what does that mean? Is the RSX a "heavily" customized G70/80 or is it a really a completely custom GPU (Made of Nvidia IPs, of course)?

 

[ralexand]

No one knows since the details haven't been released but its what you expect him to say. We'll see when we get independent confirmation.

 

[trinibwoy]

Vote for slightly modified.

 

[V3]

Its likely RSX is just a G70 @90nm speed bump to 550 MHz with modified interface to work with Cell's Rambus interface. Maybe the video decoder (that didn't work in NV40) or whatever they call it removed. Memory bus width down from 256 to 128bit.

The latest on G70 spec is 110nm, 430MHz, 8 vertex shader, 24 pixelpipe.

So is most likely be a modified of G70 refresh at this stage.

 

[Qroach]

I think it's going to be even less custom than NV2A in xbox.

 

[Carl B]

I'm going with heavily modified, tending towards G80, and actually hoping for some degree of custom job. I know this might be stretching things, but I really am not a believer in the G70 theory. That would mean a PC release of a chip over nine months before the launch of the console version; sometimes nine months IS a graphics generation. (well, not really but you know what I mean)

Well so anyway, heavily modifed G80 for me.

 

[jvd]

voted for slightly modified . Why ? because while the ps3 is coming out mabye 9 months after the g70 they need to have the cards in developers hands for a few months and need to get a big store of rsx chips ready to launch which takes times. So i would say that the design would be finalized now with production of them starting late summer and devs getting the cards in beta kits by the holidays .

 

[Carl B]

So i would say that the design would be finalized now with production of them starting late summer and devs getting the cards in beta kits by the holidays .

Well, remember that the design hasn't taped out yet, something to maybe take into consideration, though it's true that they'll have to begin production within that nine month window before it actually closes.

 

[jvd]

So i would say that the design would be finalized now with production of them starting late summer and devs getting the cards in beta kits by the holidays .

Well, remember that the design hasn't taped out yet, something to maybe take into consideration, though it's true that they'll have to begin production within that nine month window before it actually closes.

the design should be done already and they should have sent it in for the tap out with the masks being done .

Now they will most likely bug fix the hardware and send it back for another tap tap out and they will do this till they get final silicon . I doubt they want any bugs in the hardware as they will be making it for 5 years its not like a graphics card that they can fix down the road or in a refresh .

 

[Carl B]

Well, we'll see - I'm sticking with my answer, but I understand why you would stick with yours also.

 

[Acert93]

I guess the question is what does he mean by "completely different architecture".

The press release from December says:

"Both companies are jointly developing a custom graphics processing unit (GPU) incorporating NVIDIA's next-generation GeForce and SCEI's system solutions for next-generation computer entertainment systems featuring the Cell* processor."

Later Jen-Hsun Huang was quoted as saying about the design that,

"This next generation architecture took several hundred people several years to build, but this specific implementation of that architecture should take about 50 engineers. It's something we're running full throttle on," he added.

So from these two statements I get that the RSX uses 1. a next gen GeForce architecture and 2. that the PS3 implimentation of this architecture took a significantly lower amount of NV staff (but also some Sony staff, which would obviously be required to allow the RSX to access the XDR and incorperate into the general PS3 design).

Based on the above information, I have a hard time reconciling Ken Kutaragi's statements with all the other available information. I have heard other posters here hint at the same thing that Anand is saying, "When the G70 is officially announced you will know more about the RSX".

Now Ken may have certain features in mind (like the FlexIO and the RSX's ability to access the GDDR3 and the XDR), plus I would not doubt that like NV2A that some Sony IPs and NV IPs which did not make it into the G70 would be included; likewise I would expect the video encoding/decoding from the NV40 series to be cut out as well.

But at the chip level I have my doubts it is a "completely different architecture". It depends how you classify "architecture". It seems a lot of people here look at the 9500/9700, 9800, X800/X700, and X850 as being a development of the same general architecture. If that is how we were to define an architecture I would say my expections are a not "a completely different architecture" but more of a development of the new Geforce. But there is a lot of ambiguity here... if you are including the ability to connect to the FlexIO and read/write GDDR3 and XDR memory pools, plus other feature tweaks as an "architecture" I guess you could call it "completely different".

But I think the poll is more asking about the chip itself, so my vote is for "slightly different" in that on a feature set level I expect the G70 to be very similar based on everyeones feedback and previous news releases. The biggest difference may be that the G70 may release on a slower 110nm process, with a refresh at a faster 90nm architecture in the spring. But I hear there is no certainty on which process NV will release the G70 on...

Hey, maybe that is what he means be architecture! 90nm is quite a bit different from 110nm!

 

[Farid]

Why ? because while the ps3 is coming out mabye 9 months after the g70 they need to have the cards in developers hands for a few months

All they need to have in developers hands is detailed documentations and a compatible shaders compiler.

and need to get a big store of rsx chips ready to launch which takes times.

The X360 will be on shelves this holidays, woldwide, and Ati is still doing "Risk Production" for the Xenos.

So i would say that the design would be finalized now

The question isn't about knowing if the design is taped out r not.
It's about knowing if the RSX is more than a slightly modified PC part.

If they decided to reduce/increase the number of Pixel/Vertex Shaders, or whatever else, on the RSX part. Those Pixel/Vertex Shader processors could be the same thoses on the G70. The design wouldn't be a problem, nor take an incredibly long time.

 

[jvd]

All they need to have in developers hands is detailed documentations and a compatible shaders compiler.

they are going to want more than that to compare to second gen x360 games

The X360 will be on shelves this holidays, woldwide, and Ati is still doing "Risk Production" for the Xenos

I disagree , As i understand they are finished with it and have been for months (Ati that is ) ms is now fabbing the chips with developers starting to get them in june . giving them about 5 months to get enough units .

The question isn't about knowing if the design is taped out r not.
It's about knowing if the RSX is more than a slightly modified PC part.

I doubt its more than a slightly modified g70 because of the time frame for its tap out and finilization of the unit + the time frame for developing it .

If they decided to reduce/increase the number of Pixel/Vertex Shaders, or whatever else, on the RSX part. Those Pixel/Vertex Shader processors could be the same thoses on the G70. The design wouldn't be a problem, nor take an incredibly long time.

which would be a slight modification . Not only that but i'm sure nvidia has already looked at the most efficent set up for the g70 and I doubt much will be changed except for the ability to interact with the cell and the way to interface with the xdr ram.

 

[MechanizedDeath]

This ignores repeated comments from KK and Phil stating that the RSX is not just different, but also a Sony chip. I don't know if that poll is useful b/c I selected custom GPU before seeing the "heavily modified" option. I don't think the number of NVidia engineers means anything b/c that team also had Sony engineers. So 50 NVidia engineers + whatever Sony threw in. I woulda chosen "heavily modified" instead. I think it's more than just FlexIO. I think they might have added their own goodies to the mix, but we'll see. It could just be that the G70/80 was a great fit from the start, and thus not necessary to redesign anything. I don't give much credence to the idea that it was a rushed job. Sony and NVidia both claim they had 18 months to work on it, and if they haven't taped out yet, then there's even more time for you. We'll see though. Maybe the reason we don't have details yet on the chip is b/c they're not done designing it. PEACE.

 

[jvd]

This ignores repeated comments from KK and Phil stating that the RSX is not just different, but also a Sony chip

like phil hasn't been wrong before ? Just look at killzone , the dev is saying its not real time and phil is saying it is . I perfer to wait but from what it sounds like it is a modified g70 its just how far it was modified is the question and to the sony fans it just being a g70 modified isn't a bad thing at all.

 

[Farid]

they are going to want more than that to compare to second gen x360 games

Says who?

As i understand they are finished with it and have been for months (Ati that is )

No one said otherwise. The time between a taped out design and its large scale production is significant.

ms is now fabbing the chips

Is that your assumption? Or is that a fact of public matter?

which would be a slight modification .

No. Just no.

i'm sure nvidia has already looked at the most efficent set up for the g70

The G70 is a PC part, meant to operate on the PC space. Therefore I'm also sure the G70 is efficient at what its doing.
We're talking about the RSX here, the part that its meant for an embedded system.

 

[Acert93]

Hey MechanizedDeath,

You could be right on (in any of the couple scenarios) you gave. I guess the hard thing I have is reconciling:

Jen-Hsun:

This next generation architecture took several hundred people several years to build, but this specific implementation of that architecture

with KK:

Many people seem to think that the PS3's GPU is an upgraded model of GPUs for the PC, but it actually has a completely different architecture

Jen-Hsun says the PS3 is an implimentation of the next GeForce architecture, while KK says it is a completely different architecture.

One insists they are the same architecture, just different implimentations; the other insists they are completely different architectures. Unless the the word, "architecture" means different things to them or if they are talking about different things (Jen-Hsun about the chip, KK about the chip and how it works in the PS3) it is REALLY HARD to reconcile the different press clips.

So I am excited to find out what is what Like my post said, my guess it is G70 refresh (G80) at 90nm with video encoding removed + some extra features. Basically a NV2A like chip.

 

[jvd]

Says who?

developers like the guys from killzone saying how they want to see how the software runs on the cell and rsx as they are diffrent from the dev kits they have .

No one said otherwise. The time between a taped out design and its large scale production is significant.

err u did

The X360 will be on shelves this holidays, woldwide, and Ati is still doing "Risk Production" for the Xenos

ati is done with the chip and has given it fully to ms and ms is producing the gpus already and getting them into dev kits as they are avalible . Much diffrent than still being in risk production esp considering that ati has nothing to do with risk production .

Is that your assumption? Or is that a fact of public matter?

Where are they getting the chips to send to developers in june ? out of thin air ?

No. Just no.

Sure now i know how i will answer each and every one of your posts . Except some how when I said no with no facts to support my claims your going to jump on me

The G70 is a PC part, meant to operate on the PC space. Therefore I'm also sure the G70 is efficient at what its doing.
We're talking about the RSX here, the part that its meant for an embedded system.

no just no


There

 

[Farid]

I don't know if that poll is useful

That poll is not meant to be indicative of anything else but the informal opinions of the forumers.
Seeing that most of us, if not all, couldn't answer the question, anyway.

 

[thatdude90210]

I wonder how many engineers are required to simply do the process change for the G70 from .11 to .09... hope it isn't 50.