Interview with Nintendo software engineer Takeshi Shimada (includes Wii GPU question)

[zed]

heres super mario running on the n64 + wii ( hard to tell the quality cause the photos are done from a camera but the one thing is certain the wii is higher quality )

http://pix.blakespot.com/view/computers/screenshots/SM64_N64vsWii/IMG_8997.JPG.html
http://pix.blakespot.com/view/computers/screenshots/SM64_N64vsWii/IMG_9000.JPG.html

 

[Oblivion]

It just pains me how utterly weak the Wii GPU is, and how much more powerful it could if been if Nintendo got even some GPU made in 2003 or something.

We should know by now the main reason for going this route was so that they could just easily port their GC projects.

 

[Fox5]

heres super mario running on the n64 + wii ( hard to tell the quality cause the photos are done from a camera but the one thing is certain the wii is higher quality )

http://pix.blakespot.com/view/computers/screenshots/SM64_N64vsWii/IMG_8997.JPG.html
http://pix.blakespot.com/view/computers/screenshots/SM64_N64vsWii/IMG_9000.JPG.html

All emulated n64 games on the gamecube and wii ran at 4x their native res (from 320x240 to 640x480, majora's mask may have been 640x480 on the n64) with at the very least proper bilinear filtering. Those are probably about the only reasons the wii emulations look better.

 

[zed]

supermario64 etc as well as the xbox (running on xb360) are closer to ports than emulations.
the thing is if theyre willing to go to all this trouble for that.
altering the 3d game resolution is extremely trivial, its just the cause of replace a couple of numbers, they could leave the HUDs projection etc as it was originally

 

[Fox5]

supermario64 etc as well as the xbox (running on xb360) are closer to ports than emulations.
the thing is if theyre willing to go to all this trouble for that.
altering the 3d game resolution is extremely trivial, its just the cause of replace a couple of numbers, they could leave the HUDs projection etc as it was originally

I know the xbox emulations are recompilations (and perhaps even rewritten?) but are you sure about that for the n64 emulators? Even gamecube is more than powerful enough to just about fully emulate the n64, the games present all the same flaws associated with emulating N64 on pc, and people were even able to inject new roms into the gamecube emus and have them work.

There may be per game profiles, but I wouldn't call the n64 games on gamecube or wii ports since, at least on the cube, they did use a generic n64 emu. (though I recall hearing that the roms were optimized for streaming in some way)

 

[Nesh]

A friend of mine who modded his XBOX1 filled his with tons of homebrew and emulators and I can assure that he ran Super Mario 64 on it on extremely high speeds. Only sound was missing ofcourse since the emulator he showed me back then was still in beta form

 

[rbushner]

as the xbox (running on xb360) are closer to ports than emulations

I know the xbox emulations are recompilations (and perhaps even rewritten?)

The 360 is doing emulation for XBox games. Calling them ports, recompilation or rewrites is disingenuous.

The emulator needs certain hints, so it's not a 100% hardware emulation, but it's far closer to that then a port or rewrite.

 

[fearsomepirate]

supermario64 etc as well as the xbox (running on xb360) are closer to ports than emulations.

A port involves at the bare minimum recompilation of the game code to run on a different platform. Emulation is running the original binaries on a different platform through a software layer designed to mimic the interface of the original hardware. The emulator may be capable of adding new features or not.

Mario 64 runs on the Xbox using a ROM of the original game. Thus it is an emulation, not a port.

Xbox games run on the 360 using the original binaries on the game disc, not recompiled binaries on a new disc. Thus, they are emulated, not ported.

 

[zed]

Mario 64 runs on the Xbox using a ROM of the original game. Thus it is an emulation, not a port.

yes i agree though i was talking about it running on the wii

my understanding is WRT xbox games running on xb360 for each separate game u need to download a piece of software ( is this not correct? ), ie if it was truly emulated then this would not be necessary as the emulator would mimic the xbox hardware

 

[Shompola]

yes i agree though i was talking about it running on the wii

my understanding is WRT xbox games running on xb360 for each separate game u need to download a piece of software ( is this not correct? ), ie if it was truly emulated then this would not be necessary as the emulator would mimic the xbox hardware

I believe it is like UltraHLE if you remember that N64 emulator. There is a technical term of how it tries to run these games, but I can't remember it. Maybe somebody else does?

 

[fearsomepirate]

if it was truly emulated then this would not be necessary as the emulator would mimic the xbox hardware

No. All emulation mean is that you're using an Xbox binary and some kind of software layer to translate it into X360 language. The emulator may only emulate high-level APIs and not mimic low-level code, but that doesn't mean it's "not a true emulator."

Think of it this way: Imagine that the Xbox 360 speaks only English. An Xbox game is like a book written in Russian. Emulation is like hiring a translator to read the book out loud in English while the 360 listens. His vocabulary might not be big enough to read every book, so sometimes he'll have to learn new words to translate different books. Porting is like publishing an all-new English edition of the book.

 

[StefanS]

I believe it is like UltraHLE if you remember that N64 emulator. There is a technical term of how it tries to run these games, but I can't remember it. Maybe somebody else does?

Yeah, it's called High Level Emulation. ;-)

The emulator was revolutionary in its design. Previously, emulator programmers had concentrated on accurately emulating all of the low level operations which the target machine was capable of. It had worked well for older consoles such as the Super Nintendo and Sega Genesis.

Co-authors Epsilon and RealityMan pioneered a paradigm shift in emulator programming. They realized that since N64 games were programmed in C code, that instead of intercepting machine level operations, they could concentrate on intercepting (the far fewer) C library calls, and write their own code to implement the libraries. Thus UltraHLE software is in fact an emulator with some parts implemented as a simulation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrahle

 

[Urian]

I´ve ever had the theory that the iQue BroadON chip is inside the Hollywood.

 

[Li Mu Bai]

What kind of budget did Zelda have? Im pretty confident it would rival the costs of say Oblivion and Gears of War

Around $15million+ iirc. Also you shouldn't take the $10million development cost of Gears quite so literally, as Epic had already developed the engine. (which can figure quite prominently into the overall R&D sw costs)

 

[Li Mu Bai]

Don't compare the costs for producing a Wii game on the real Wii but the costs for producing a Wii game on a theoretical "oomphy" Wii. It's easier to make a renderer for a programmable GPU, not having to fake effects, but simply implementing them in the most straightforward way possible (what happend on the PC with the SM1.4 -> SM2.0 transition). It's easier to work in a higher-level language, made possible by a beefier CPU. It's much, much easier to work with more breathing room in terms of memory.

Actually, this is my worst complaint with the Wii as a developer: I can live with the Geforce2-level GPU - I've had worse, as the Black Knight says. I can live with the sub-GHz CPU - I've had worse. However, the measly amount of memory is the worst constraint, and it would have been the cheapest of the three to increase. Including only the current 64 MB of main RAM shows most clearly that Nintendo are cheapskates who hate all developers

Yet developers continue to develop for & push the PS2, strange. (GOW2)

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Around $15million+ iirc. Also you shouldn't take the $10million development cost of Gears quite so literally, as Epic had already developed the engine. (which can figure quite prominently into the overall R&D sw costs)

Yes, epic had already developed the engine, but isn't engine development peanuts in the big picture? Its half-a dozen programmers writing code?

Anyways, thats not the point, the point is that "Epic" games (not games developed by Epic, but the word epic, as in killerapp) is still costing the "same". The wii being easier, doesn't make everything automatically cheaper.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If we consider the cost of the engine to other developers is $1 million, we can say that if it Epic had to use a third party engine, the game would cost $1 million more to make, or another company producing exactly the same GeOW game would ahve to spend $11 million. That gives a real cost to create the game, rather than saying the cost of developing UE3.0 is 100% additional cost on top of GeOW, which ignores the returns from multiple titles and licensing.

 

[Fafalada]

Yet developers continue to develop for & push the PS2, strange. (GOW2)

PS2 sells more software yearly then competitors did in their lifetime. Heck at present time, the only 'current'(6 years or younger)hw with higher software LTD then PS2 Yearly, is GBA...

 

[MDX]

I´ve ever had the theory that the iQue BroadON chip is inside the Hollywood.

Got any evidence that BroadOn made the chip for the iQue?
Cause it would be an interesting theory...

 

[Li Mu Bai]

PS2 sells more software yearly then competitors did in their lifetime. Heck at present time, the only 'current'(6 years or younger)hw with higher software LTD then PS2 Yearly, is GBA...

Which was exactly my point Faf, developers will allocate resources into whatever platform/s they deem most profitable, despite the systems technical shortcomings. The PS2 is obviously still a very viable system to develop for from a business perspective. assen said that Nintendo hates developers, I heard these very same sentiments early on regarding the PS2 & its programming complexity, lack of v-ram, etc. (remember Lorne Lanning's grocery list of complaints?) But developers were forced to adapt. Developers will do the same with the Wii.