Interview with Genji 2 producer

[Capeta]

I don't quite follow your logic. The point is nothing in that game required SPEs (since they didn't really use them), which means if they put them to use, they could probably pull off even better -- even without the use it's still one of the better looking games released on either 360 or PS3.

Where did I say anything in the game requires SPEs?

So... why didn't we just stick with single core 3.2ghz CPUs for all consoles then, since it can do everything! PS3 and 360's CPUs are a waste!

Obviously you can do it with the PPE, but you could do more of it/faster by spreading that type of stuff out on the SPEs...

The game isn't very impressive so it makes perfect sense that no SPEs were used. You said you were impressed by the game because it didn't use SPEs. What's so impressive about it?

If the PPE at 3.2GHz couldn't run the game by itself then how is the game running without using any SPEs?

 

[Nesh]

The game isn't very impressive so it makes perfect sense that no SPEs were used. You said you were impressed by the game because it didn't use SPEs. What's so impressive about it?

If the PPE at 3.2GHz couldn't run the game by itself then how is the game running without using any SPEs?

Actually it looks very nice. Especially for a launch title. It is not by any means mediocre looking.

 

[Bobbler]

The game isn't very impressive so it makes perfect sense that no SPEs were used. You said you were impressed by the game because it didn't use SPEs. What's so impressive about it?

If the PPE at 3.2GHz couldn't run the game by itself then how is the game running without using any SPEs?

That may not have been very clear... it's an impressive game regardless of it's use of SPEs.

I don't imagine you've played the game much, if at all, so one can hardly accept your "the game isn't very impressive" comment as anything but disingenuous. The game looks nice because of the art -- the player models (Yoshitsune's especially) are rather top notch. The art may not be everyone's thing, but it is well done and consistent -- there is also a lot of variety of environments in the game (burning buildings, forests - autumn forest looks especially great, snowy places, caves, beaches, boats/water, the underworld with it's greenish tint, etc.). It may not technically be doing anything amazing, but it still looks better than almost all of the next gen games I've played on PS3/360. Graphics were not Genji's issue.

The last part, I'm not sure what you mean, as I'm saying the same thing -- it isn't using the SPEs, so of course the 3.2ghz PPE can run it... A big Duh to that one.

 

[Capeta]

I don't imagine you've played the game much, if at all, so one can hardly accept your "the game isn't very impressive" comment as anything but disingenuous. The game looks nice because of the art -- the player models (Yoshitsune's especially) are rather top notch. The art may not be everyone's thing, but it is well done and consistent -- there is also a lot of variety of environments in the game (burning buildings, forests - autumn forest looks especially great, snowy places, caves, beaches, boats/water, the underworld with it's greenish tint, etc.). It may not technically be doing anything amazing, but it still looks better than almost all of the next gen games I've played on PS3/360. Graphics were not Genji's issue.

Err..that's exactly my point. To you it looks impressive because of the graphics which have nothing to do with SPEs. From your original post, you said you were surprised it didn't use any SPEs...why? SPEs are used for physics etc not graphics. This game doesn't have uber physics so it's not surprising that they only used the PPE and none of the SPEs. The graphics look fairly good but you don't need SPEs for that, you need good artists and a good GPU.

 

[macabre]

Err..that's exactly my point. To you it looks impressive because of the graphics which have nothing to do with SPEs. From your original post, you said you were surprised it didn't use any SPEs...why? SPEs are used for physics etc not graphics. This game doesn't have uber physics so it's not surprising that they only used the PPE and none of the SPEs. The graphics look fairly good but you don't need SPEs for that, you need good artists and a good GPU.

Maybe they can not aid to the quality of the graphics ,but SPEs can help to make the game large scale wich has direct impact on the look of the game.

 

[Capeta]

Maybe they can not aid to the quality of the graphics ,but SPEs can help to make the game large scale wich has direct impact on the look of the game.

SPEs could be used to do a lot of things for a game, that's not the point. The point is G2 isn't using any SPEs so obviously it didn't need them to create the worlds. If G2 was a PC game that only needed a 2GHz P4 and a DX9 videocard why would I be surprised it didn't need a PPU addon card to create the environments/graphics?

 

[macabre]

SPEs could be used to do a lot of things for a game

That was my point. I thought that you think SPEs are just for physics.
My post had nothing to do with Genji.

 

[Capeta]

That was my point. I thought that you think SPEs are just for physics.
My post had nothing to do with Genji.

In other words your point is irrelevent to my point which has to do with G2 which doesn't use SPEs for anything period graphics related or not. If you wanted to make a point about my point at least know what my point was...

 

[macabre]

In other words your point is irrelevent to my point which has to do with G2 which doesn't use SPEs for anything period graphics related or not. If you wanted to make a point about my point at least know what my point was...

Irrelevant in regard to Genji, but not in general. Your post had a slightly general tone at the end, so...

 

[Bobbler]

SPEs are used for physics etc not graphics.

What?

Since when are SPEs not allowed to do graphics work? There's lots that they can do on the graphical front: animation work, poly culling, post processing (particles/blur, who knows), etc. Good artists are definitely the starting place, but there is a lot on the technical side that can improve graphics quite a bit (especially when combined with solid art).

It's been discussed dozens of times here.

 

[Capeta]

What?

Since when are SPEs not allowed to do graphics work? There's lots that they can do on the graphical front: animation work, poly culling, post processing (particles/blur, who knows), etc. Good artists are definitely the starting place, but there is a lot on the technical side that can improve graphics quite a bit (especially when combined with solid art).

It's been discussed dozens of times here.

Again you're avoiding the point. G2 doesn't use the SPEs for anything so obviously the SPEs aren't doing anything related to graphics OR physics. You said G2 was impressive and were surprised it didn't use any SPEs...why? What's so impressive about G2 that requires involving the SPEs? You didn't think G2 could run on a single PPE at 3.2GHz the way it does? Is there some super duper secret effect that the RSX+PPE couldn't accomplish without involving SPEs in G2? Just answer the question as I'm trying to follow the logic from your original post.

 

[zed]

SPEs are used for physics etc not graphics. This game doesn't have uber physics so it's not surprising that they only used the PPE and none of the SPEs. The graphics look fairly good but you don't need SPEs for that, you need good artists and a good GPU.

SPEs can help out heaps with graphics
eg visabilty determination, ray casting shading etc, amazing particle systems, fullscreen effects, model tesselation etc
the list is nearly endless, its not just limited to physics

in fact there were rumours at one stage of using the cell for the graphics, ( though youll need prolly at least 4x the number of spes to think about ditching the graphics card ) so this idea that spes not being useful for graphics is bollux

 

[Shifty Geezer]

To help with Capeta's argument, which is getting muddled here...

Bobbler said that he's surprised SPE's weren't used because Genji looks so good.
Capeta asks what's surprising about that, when what's seen is what would be expected from a standard core and G70 class GPU.
Bobbler agrees that there's nothing technically amazing with the graphics.

So, if there's nothing technically amazing with the graphics, and everyone agrees that they're more clever art direction than super-powered graphics driven by effecient SPE use, why is it surprising that SPEs weren't used? If there's nothing fancy there that would lead one to believe SPE's were used, it shouldn't be surprising that they weren't!

What would be surprising is if there was complex physics and...um...super morphic skeleton transmogrification, and stuff you'd think they'd use SPE's for, only to hear they didn't. That's where Capeta gives the comment about SPE's being used for physics etc. instead of graphics. Of course they can be used for graphics, but that obviously wasn't the case in this game, and Capeta was looking for non-graphics uses that would be expected of SPEs and weren't.

If that makes any sense.

I think in conclusion, which everyone can agree with, Genji is an impressive looking game because it's well made, even if not technically amazing in a fancy-pants way. It's achieved this just on a 3.2GHz PPE, which goes to show that such a core is quite useful. They haven't used SPEs at all yet which means future games should hopefully rock your world. Or be Genji with lots of physics. Maybe boxes. Millions of boxes.

 

[DieH@rd]

Is someone wants to see, there is "First 10 minutes" video of Genji: Days of the Blade on Playsyde.com
In SD and HD resolutions... http://playsyde.com/game_1067.html

PS: LOL, what a great smiley! [runaway]

 

[Bobbler]

To help with Capeta's argument, which is getting muddled here...

Bobbler said that he's surprised SPE's weren't used because Genji looks so good.
Capeta asks what's surprising about that, when what's seen is what would be expected from a standard core and G70 class GPU.
Bobbler agrees that there's nothing technically amazing with the graphics.

So, if there's nothing technically amazing with the graphics, and everyone agrees that they're more clever art direction than super-powered graphics driven by effecient SPE use, why is it surprising that SPEs weren't used? If there's nothing fancy there that would lead one to believe SPE's were used, it shouldn't be surprising that they weren't!

That's not exactly what I said though... That's what Capeta is saying, but not what I was saying.

I said the graphics looked good for not using SPEs. There may not be anything technically demanding in Genji, but one still expects SPE usage for whatever they can, even if they aren't taking advantage of them fully. Any (unintentional) surprise of mine would have been more like idsn6's (I'm surprised that any game wouldn't be using the SPEs.) and not rounin's (I'm surprised this game has not used SPEs.). Despite the game's lack of technical prowess, it still looks good and sometimes better than games with a list of technical feats a page long -- that's all I said or implied with the lack of SPE comment, at least that's what I was meaning. I'm not sure where this "surprised by lack of SPE use" is coming from, as I don't really see where I conveyed that, I see where Capeta starting running with that, but not where I said it. I'm not really surprised. I'm curious as to what the same team could pull off if they used SPEs as well though.

 

[archangelmorph]

That's not exactly what I said though... That's what Capeta is saying, but not what I was saying.

I said the graphics looked good for not using SPEs. There may not be anything technically demanding in Genji, but one still expects SPE usage for whatever they can, even if they aren't taking advantage of them fully. Any (unintentional) surprise of mine would have been more like idsn6's (I'm surprised that any game wouldn't be using the SPEs.) and not rounin's (I'm surprised this game has not used SPEs.). Despite the game's lack of technical prowess, it still looks good and sometimes better than games with a list of technical feats a page long -- that's all I said or implied with the lack of SPE comment, at least that's what I was meaning. I'm not sure where this "surprised by lack of SPE use" is coming from, as I don't really see where I conveyed that, I see where Capeta starting running with that, but not where I said it. I'm not really surprised. I'm curious as to what the same team could pull off if they used SPEs as well though.

Does the game run at 60fps and does it support 1080p?

If not i'm suprised the developers didn't even consider spending if only a little bit of time shifting some of the more depanding CPU logic onto the SPEs or using them instead of the PPE for culling/clipping vertices (since AFAIK RSX can't fair so well on its own in this regard..) in order to enable the game to look as good as it does AND run as smooth as a babies arse at in full 1080p HD glory..