In response to recent events

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That is not what NVIDIA wants. They want fair and objective reviews. I don't think they will even mind criticism(s) of any one of their product.

No, Rev. It's exactly as SirPauly put it. They want gutless, unquestioning, amatuerish pawn website reviews. Plain and simple.

This is the correct viewpoint for a marketing department. You want the sites in your hip pocket to do your reviews as the easiest path of manipulation lies in this kind of distribution. I dont have to go into Riva3D's past experience ("If ya pull review with criticism, no more review cards.")... how Firing Squad needed to pull their "Win2k shootout!" review, where it was quickly replaced with Win98se scores for the Geforce products *ONLY* for this Win2K benchmark article (lol).. or the opposite kind of thing with successful manipulation of competitor's reviews (Give you 3 guesses where HardOCP got their "Quack" knowledge and binary patching program, the first two guesses don't count. It starts with an N..). These are the preferred distribution lines.

A good example- NVIDIA knows screenshots of Quincunx on the GF4 do not illustrate Quincunx output quality. They also know that all the sites they have chosen for product launch wouldn't delve or question that the screenshots they take look drastically different from the IQ on their monitor in-game. So, these sites become the preference to "slip by" these kinds of things. It lets them get away with most anything. And by other associations, they know dropping an email with a bin-hex editor or patch program, these same sites will do a 4-page comprehensive analysis of 500x zoomed image scrutiny (or in some cases even convinced to do photo-retouching to create a non-existent issue) when it involves a competitor for something that either doesnt exist or isnt as blaringly obvious.

Take a look at the real history of where this line of reasoning originates from. New GF4 drivers on the "Big 5" with massive AF filtering preformance improvements. Beyond3D probing a "Performance" and "Quality" mode of AF to show there are improvements in performance, just not to the degree the other sites are blindly touting (i.e. the fastest performance is yielded when using the LOD fudged mode in OGL). This is the kind of in-depth probing this site has always been known for and simply wont allow ANY IHV to get away with. Sites using non-publicly available drivers in the case of one IHV, on non-publicly available benchmarks is also a preferred case for this tactic. You will also see the same, mutli-paragraph scrutiny of IQ issues for one IHV (i.e. effects missing on brand A's ICD) but with absolutely no scrutiny or mention of the other.

It becomes painstakingly clear what their marketing department is molding for their products. I consider this brilliant work and really congratulate NVIDIA's PR/Marketing and public relations officers for their mastery of this facet of product launch. There is nothing really "wrong" with this and it's a good thing for them. But I do think there is something wrong when all of their long, hard work is to be swept under the rug and discounted.

No product is perfect. Under scrutiny, all products can be exploited to show their flaws/weaknesses. The desired result for *any* organized marketing effort is to get your product in the public eye with none of it's flaws exposed, and with all the competitor's flaws illustrated in major detail. NVIDIA is simply using their keen knowledge of what sites will do just this and ensuring a successful launch. Beyond3D never has fallen into this category of website so therefore it should be excluded from such a product launch marketing campaign.
 
If one of you were to write an NV30 review/preview, I can only imagine the number of times you would make comments like:

"Here we can see the Radeon 9700 beat the NV30, despite NVIDIAs claims of superiority, and with the room for driver improvements from ATI we can only assume the Radeon will pull even further ahead in the future."
No, B3D would try to delve into the reasons behind one card's superiority. Your qualms with the forum dwellers who seem to be irrationally or overly pro-one-company-over-the-other are pointless, as they don't write or influence the reviews and in-depth articles the B3D staff produce. Examine the post history of B3D staff and tell me how biased they come off.

Anand seemed to do as much in his R300 preview, doubting the drivers though he had no problems with it, and finishing by saying the NV30 lay in the R300's path. I can't remember seeing a B3D comment that struck me as inappropriate or unfounded.

Whatever, I've had enough of this. I await B3D's R300 and NV30 analyses with interest.
 
I finally decided to put in a little input on this, though it doesn't have anything to do with the inappropriate airing of dirty site laundry in public.

What it does have to do with is the core of what made Beyond3D the *premier* site for discovering the intricacies inherant in 3D technology, regardless of what IHV we're talking about.

Back when I first started coming to B3D in its early years, it was *packed* with articles that explored "how things work" in 3D. Whether it was picking around 3dfx and their 16/22bit post filter, or expounding upon just what it takes to get a pixel on the screen, or exploring just what a "tiler" really is.

They presented this information through the disection of available technology, filtered through the looking glass of the vast knowledge of its staff members and their connections in the industry.

Beyond3D always had good "reviews" they looked Beyond the things that so many other reviews did... but that was only a little bit of it. The reason so many really bloody smart people posted in these forums all the time was because there was massive (not always civil) but massive debate about all things 3D that usually went way over 90% of the casual readers heads. I spent well over a year here as a lurker, reading, learning, and enjoying not understanding everything people were discussing... and learned an incredible amount from that.

I really look forward to more *articles* from Beyond3D (where's that shader article Kristof! ;))... not just, or necessarily reviews... because it is a type of content they can deliver in a way that nobody else does. Ever since the server problems and B3D being down for soo long, and the staff shuffling etc. B3D has never really gotten back to that core of what made it such an incredibly good resource for information, which led to a lot of links/references/plugs all over the 'net because this was where you went for that content.

That kind of site focus could very likely avoid the issues of staff working for various IHVs... it could potentially capitolize on it if done in the right manner.

The forums have gone to hell, for the most part, because the *smart* discussions in the forums are somewhat few and far between now... people don't come to b3d and get overwhelmed by the amount of information and high-level (or low-level depending on which way u look at it) discussion anymore... they see a little of that, and a lot of not-so-smart bickering over the same bits and pieces over and over. Its time to rebuild the core of the B3D community... and the content that comes out in the next 6 months on this site will be a major contributor to what type of core community is formed. The other primary contributor will be how the community acts in its discussions.

Years of experience at Rage3D have taught me that heavy-handed modding doesn't build a community. The community builds the community... When the community ignores trolls, when they *gently* and/or *respectfully* correct misunderstandings or fallacies in posts with facts, knowledge, and civil debate (yes, it really is ok to agree to disagree), people learn, community grows, and it is sustainable. Mods can't be everywhere at once, and heavy-handed modding encourages the worst of the trolls to try to subvert the system in any way they can. The larger the community gets, the more the community needs to help police itself, with mods there to deal with the worst cases.

Beyond3D is near and dear to me, as behind Rage3D, I've probably spent more hours over the last many years on this site and forum learning, contributing where i could, and enjoying what the site and its community has had to offer than anywhere else.

I really hope to see Beyond3D pick itself up from all the obstacles and turmoil it has gone through over the last couple years and look forward to its return to the incredible site it was when I first stumbled across it. I also hope those in the community here realize what they can do to help build the community into what they want to see as much as I do.
 
Crusher said:
Althornin said:
What they are trying to avoid is a review that is biased against them. And I for one think they have good reason to be. Althornin, Geek_2002, Doomtrooper, and Hellbinder, the reason you don't see this is because you are a good portion of the cause behind their fears of bias here.

That has gotta be the most moronic statement I've ever read, I posted obvious flaws in NV hardware..there was no LIES posted by me...texture compression, Alpha blends not getting AA'd, Poor Anisotropic filtering performance. All of these were the truth, if you want to read fairy tale stories that everything is rosy in Nvidia land..head to a fan site.

No IHV should be afraid to let any credible website review their product unless they are hiding something. Looking at any of the reviews done on this site I can see NO BIAS on any card..every card gets a fair shake and the truth is posted..nothing the matter with that.
I remember this happening years ago when this site was being accused of be Pro-3DFX...looking at the reviews I can't see how anyone could state that :rolleyes:

Beyond3D would be soley missed if it was to dissappear again.
 
Ichneumon said:
I really hope to see Beyond3D pick itself up from all the obstacles and turmoil it has gone through over the last couple years and look forward to its return to the incredible site it was when I first stumbled across it. I also hope those in the community here realize what they can do to help build the community into what they want to see as much as I do.

Amen to that!
 
I don't think what Rev said is mutally exclusive with what Sharkfood said.

NVIDIA certainly appreciates having B-grade websites hyping their products but at the same time, I'm sure they don't mind having A-grade websites giving a fair look at their product. This is mainly because their products have mostly been fast and competitive and they have nothing to loose when sending it to a major website. But when it comes to T-grade (techincal) websites like Beyond3D, they really have nothing to *gain* by sending a review board. They certainly wouldn't do it for hits/exposure nor does it fuel their other objective (having more *bitch* sites). The result is really just a techinical disection of their product. In that sense, it's like sending a sample board to a university. :)

Given that Beyond3D is not going to do extra favours for NVIDIA or any other IHV. And due to Beyond3D's technical nature, it gives NVIDIA few reasons to send a board here as it does not aid in their business objectives. Is there anything wrong with it? Nope.

I've long forgiven IHVs for their dirty tactics. Shareholders don't care about ethics, they care about returns. Welcome to capticalism.
 
I couldn't give a damn if B3D got their hands on an nv30 or an r300. Why? Because board reviews aren't the core of what Beyond3D is about. Beyond3D is about the technology behind the boards, and the discussion of their benefits and disadvantages.

There'll be plenty of other websites with 'good enough' reviews of these boards. IMO, Beyond3D should supplement these reviews with grounded discussion of the their finer aspects. That's worked pretty well in the past.

Any of the old timers remember the days of the VSA100 announcement? The current situation takes me back to then. It's just a matter of weathering the storm, and hoping the skipper can keep the thing in the right direction. ;)
 
Alexsok, stuff gets deleted when its abrasive, humourless and most importantly entirely uninformative.

Ignore it, refute it ... or balance it with your own list of ATI faults. Dont try to get your point accross with schoolyard language though, cause the only point you get across is that you are either a stupid troll or what you accuse others of being.

Oh, and dont forget to at least put in a small pretense of staying on topic :)

Personally the only thing I care about on the web as far as reviews are concerned is benchmarks, for the rest Im more interested in people's personal experiences. If I want an independent review Ill turn to my trusty C't. Most websites are dependent on IHVs to such a large extent that most of them do bend over backwards for them, and since the IHVs can pick and choose that means the sites which dont will get samples last if at all unless they are large enough to make their own terms (but are any of the premier sites really independent enough for it? I doubt it, as I said before Ill stick with the C't.). I cant really even blame them for making up excuses to justify their behaviour, as someone else said ... thats capitalism. Of course B3D's readership cant be at an alltime high at the moment anymore either :)

Marco
 
Ichneumon,

great post, and I totally agree on all counts.

Hmm. Nothing more to say here, IMO. Except that it really might not be a good idea to air the dirty B3D laundry in the public forums. I don't know about you guys, but we have a seperate mod/3DC-crew board in our forums. Works pretty well most of the time to keep the public forums clean.

ta,
-Sascha.rb
 
nggalai said:
I don't know about you guys, but we have a seperate mod/3DC-crew board in our forums. Works pretty well most of the time to keep the public forums clean.

Well, "clean" might be the wrong word here. You may mean "less polluted", as your forum is full of fanboys (bambo, nocturne, ow, ...) too. ;)

At least you've an ignore list (which unfortunately is already full for my account)
 
MfA said:
If I want an independent review Ill turn to my trusty C't. Most websites are dependent on IHVs to such a large extent that most of them do bend over backwards for them, and since the IHVs can pick and choose that means the sites which dont will get samples last if at all unless they are large enough to make their own terms (but are any of the premier sites really independent enough for it? I doubt it, as I said before Ill stick with the C't.).

C't is certainly a good print magazine, but they're dependent on IHVs too. For example the good coverage about Gainward products leaves a bad taste IMHO. The 3d editor there sometimes shows complete lack of knowledge (I remember he asked David Kirk in an interview if 128 MB on board memory are required for pixel shaders programs, LOL), in contrary for example their CPU/infrastructure editors.
 
Ichneumon,

Great post. I know we can be friends and we have cards from differents IHVs ;)

B3D is and will continue to be a great site :D
 
Look here... I started this thread( http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1889 ) in response to the notion that the NV30 had in fact been taped out..... Supposedly this was public knowledge yet I was not able to find one reference to this information. This was simply a matter of clearing the air.. Call me a f@nboy for pointing the truth out then. A few reputable members claimed at one point the NV30 had been taped out while I was not sure and didn't fully agree. The thread is about missleading information. I have been called a f@nboy here by a particular group so many times its not funny. But does it make you a f@boy if you are trying to bring truth to the matter at hand?

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1587&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

ben6 said:
NV30 has taped out. That's public information.

DaveBaumann said:
Kyle, its been spoken about in some of the recent investors talks NVIDIA have been doing.
 
I, too, have for years been primarily a lurker here. Occasionally, I may ask a question or try to spread a bit of humor among the fanpeople. While I own nVidia products, I have no problems leaning about ANY other manufactures product. In fact, please tell me why I would want to buy any product that gives me more than what I currently have, no matter who makes it. And, please, tell me the truth…. Not just what some manufacturer wants you to tell me. If I want company lines, I have many places to go. HardOCP, Toms, Anand’s, and now VE, it looks like. However, if I want the truth, unbiased as possible, this is the only place I have found. Please don’t change this, guys. Let the Anand’s of the world get their NV30’s and tell us what nVidia wants us to hear. I can wait to hear the truth….. Hell, I’m almost 52 years old, believe me, I can wait.

As far as flame wars go, it seems to me that in the last 4 years, the only constant has been nVidia. Back in the 3dgamers day, you couldn’t ask a question without being pounced on by an nVidia zealot. And it was, if you remember, a site owned by 3DFX! Seems that wherever you go on the net, there are those with an irrational view of nVidia’s products, trying to convert the heathens. Over the last 2 years, but to a much lesser extent, we see the same of ATI. I have no position on either. However, even though I own no ATI cards and have 6 systems here using nVidia cards, I have to admit I have never been fond of the constant FUD that comes from nVidia. If there is a low road to be taken, you can almost always find nVidia there. While in no way saying others don’t do the same, nVidia has always pushed the point, to extremes.

Rev, I enjoyed and truly appreciated the way you showed us how much better the IQ was on the V5 than the GF, in complete honesty. Yes, it was slower, but, my God, did it look better. There were very few on the net that told anything different than what nVidia wanted, and you were one. Now that’s what I want…. the truth! If, NV30 is better than R300 in the things that matter to me, then it will be in my box. If R400 is better than NV30 in the things that matter to me, it will replace it in my box. But to make these decisions, I need some knowledge of these products. Truthful knowledge, not marketing BS. Honesty, not party line. Where can I go for this? Anand? Tom? Kyle? Hmmm…….so many places to tell me what nVidia wants me to hear. Hopefully, Rev, the first time you review a non nVidia product, find it in some way better and tell your readers about it, you won’t find yourself in a similar position to B3D.
 
Geek_2002 said:
Look here... I started this thread( http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1889 ) in response to the notion that the NV30 had in fact been taped out..... Supposedly this was public knowledge yet I was not able to find one reference to this information. This was simply a matter of clearing the air.. Call me a f@nboy for pointing the truth out then. A few reputable members claimed at one point the NV30 had been taped out while I was not sure and didn't fully agree. The thread is about missleading information. I have been called a f@nboy here by a particular group so many times its not funny. But does it make you a f@boy if you are trying to bring truth to the matter at hand?

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1587&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

ben6 said:
NV30 has taped out. That's public information.

DaveBaumann said:
Kyle, its been spoken about in some of the recent investors talks NVIDIA have been doing.

No, I seem to remember to claiming it had taped out multiple times, and therefor was a horrible product that behind schedule and was going to sux0rs.

But that might be selective memory on my part.
 
RussSchultz said:
Geek_2002 said:
Look here... I started this thread( http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1889 ) in response to the notion that the NV30 had in fact been taped out..... Supposedly this was public knowledge yet I was not able to find one reference to this information. This was simply a matter of clearing the air.. Call me a f@nboy for pointing the truth out then. A few reputable members claimed at one point the NV30 had been taped out while I was not sure and didn't fully agree. The thread is about missleading information. I have been called a f@nboy here by a particular group so many times its not funny. But does it make you a f@boy if you are trying to bring truth to the matter at hand?

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1587&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

ben6 said:
NV30 has taped out. That's public information.

DaveBaumann said:
Kyle, its been spoken about in some of the recent investors talks NVIDIA have been doing.

No, I seem to remember to claiming it had taped out multiple times, and therefor was a horrible product that behind schedule and was going to sux0rs.

But that might be selective memory on my part.

Christ all mighty.. I said it before and I will say it again.. I don't pretend to be an expert such as you are. But a multiple tape out as it were would have been reference to Metal revs. It wasn't taped out and that was the point stop trying to beat around the bush and belittle my arguments. Your arogance is unbecoming of you. I remmember you making claims that it had in fact been taped out and the problem must be elsewhere in the ramping up of the product... You more or less said it had little or nothing to do with the .13um process and it was likely already taped out. Russ you are just as bias as any on this site.
 
Ichneumon said:
Beyond3D always had good "reviews" they looked Beyond the things that so many other reviews did... but that was only a little bit of it. The reason so many really bloody smart people posted in these forums all the time was because there was massive (not always civil) but massive debate about all things 3D that usually went way over 90% of the casual readers heads.

There something to be taken away from here: the consumer 3D industry is evolving at a rapid pace. While he actual products are becoming more commoditised the information and understanding is being pushed away further.

The parallelisms between the CPU market and the 3D market are pertinent. In the early days CPU's were relatively uncomplicated things and people knew what was going on at a registry level because that's how they had to program; look at the CPU industry now and who on earth would bother learning the registry level information of something like a Pentium4 now? No one, there just no need - we now have higher level programming languages (from relatively low such as C up to 'point and click' languages such as VB); while this has widened the range of people how can actually developer programs/products its also cut off the need from anyone really knowing whats going on at the root of the matter.

We are currently in a very exciting time, although possibly saddening at the same time. With the levels of programmability being introduced into newer hardware being introduced now and in the future we are witnessing the fruition of the 3D market in very similar development to the CPU. The flipside of that is that 3D chips are becoming so complex its becoming increasingly difficult to have the kind of discussions of old. Also, with things such as Higher Level Shading Languages developing over the years it may mean that graphics programming will be opened up to a much larger potential developer audience because programming graphics under them should become far easier - however, this being the case 3D hardware companies will tell developers and us less about the workings of their hardware because they just don't need to; I've had developers say the same thing to me as well.

Back on track to B3D itself, when Ich says B3D is driven by the community this is true - and it can also be a very daunting thing. When I took over this position I did so hesitantly; I had to ask myself if I could provide the level of standard the B3D community expects - each time I write an article or a review, even today, I'm relatively terrified by the reaction it will get wondering if it is technically competent enough to satisfy the readers. I'm the first to acknowledge that I don't know squat about 3D if comparison to many of the readers of this site; I'm just a reasonably technically minded bod how has an understanding of the hardware - all I can do when writing an article/review is my best (sometime you've seen that, sometimes I've failed). Given this I also understand what is incredibly important for the state of the site, which is why I would rather give up all the hardware previews than have Kristof removed from the site.

However, the community is growing. This is a fact. Whether its something people will like or not is another matter, however part of the goal of having a website is to have people read it - we will strive to get a greater readership; this will also happen just because of the state of the internet - its more difficult to survive out here and those that are surviving are bound to generate more interest as other parts of the web shrink. We have to find a way of accommodating the site growth whilst still providing the high level of technical discussions that are synonymous with the B3D name. To that end I have attempted to create and area where such discussions had be had with the 3D Architecture and Coding forum. Although that has generated some goo discussions most of the users how are not agreeable with the level of noise in this forum still participate within in. That's your area guys - use it well.

On the subject of any particular IHV and whether or not we'd get preview board - of course I'm not going to say to any IHV with we don't want one and I'm going to tell them that we are big enough to warrant one, but am I going to give up some things that I hold sacred to the values of B3D? No. Hopefully, though, I won't need to put myself in that position and as yet it hasn't arisen.

As I've said numerous times I have been given no indication that NV has an issue with us. If, however, Reverend is being told something else then I hope that, seeing as he says he cares for the site, Reverend would put those to me and/or request that whoever has said these things talks to me as the representative for this site.

nggalai said:
Hmm. Nothing more to say here, IMO. Except that it really might not be a good idea to air the dirty B3D laundry in the public forums. I don't know about you guys, but we have a seperate mod/3DC-crew board in our forums. Works pretty well most of the time to keep the public forums clean.

We do - you guys just can't see it, but then neither can Rev now. Most of our laundry has stayed firmly in the bin as well.
 
Rev didn't say this! he's just reporting what other ppl are saying.

I didn't actually say that he did say it, I just said its a totally paranoid thing to say.

Oh, boy. *sighs* I'm not saying it's OK, I'm saying, much as Rev is, that that's the ways it is

So what if its the way it is, why does that mean people have to put up with it? Its strange, your saying you dislike this sort of thing and yet when someone says publically how much they dislike it you say "you don't understand, this is just the way it is, big companies don't get big by being respectable" (or words to that effect). If someone brakes into my house and steals everything and I told someone how annoyed I was would I expect them to say "you don't understand, a theif doesn't get rich by being kind, he just robs you, get over it". Obviously Nvidia aren't stealing anything or doing anything illegal, but the point is just because that's the way it is doesn't mean nobody should complain about "the way it is".

Although to be honest this doesn't bother me too much, because we'll get beyond3d's analysis of NV30 in the end wether Nvidia like it or not, and I'm sure we'll get reviews of R300 from Beyond3d quite soon as I'm sure ATI won't be half as paranoid as Nvidia are being.
 
Wavey said:
As I've said numerous times I have been given no indication that NV has an issue with us. If, however, Reverend is being told something else then I hope that, seeing as he says he cares for the site, Reverend would put those to me and/or request that whoever has said these things talks to me as the representative for this site.
The very last thing I did for Beyond3D (while I was with this site) was talk to a senior manager at NVIDIA. The point of the conversation was to enquire about NV and B3D relations and how we can improve it. Wavey, I sent an email to all staff a summarized account of my conversation. You also know who at NV I had talked to. Read that email of mine again.

That senior manager is not going to initiate a conversation with you - you have to initiate it. You asked me for his email after I left the site and I gave it. Call him or email him.

I also am unsure if Andrew Humber (since he's the NV guy you've been primarily liasing with) "overrides" him... so take that into account before you contact him.
 
DaveBaumann said:
Given this I also understand what is incredibly important for the state of the site, which is why I would rather give up all the hardware previews than have Kristof removed from the site.

I'm in 110% agreement with you there. Great post.
 
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