In response to recent events

[Trawler]

Please Rev, keep this out of the public forums. There's no need for it here.

Being a long time lurker, I've really appreciated your input, along with the rest of the B3D team. And while I'm sure your intentions are well meant, I can't see the benefit of parading this debate to the public.

Just my two cents!

BTW, over the years I've been visiting this site, we often seem to get 'emotional' periods around big product launches. Quite an interesting insight into human nature...

 

[Galilee]

pathetic is'nt it

 

[Tahir2]

Oh btw, I am sure things may be fine between you and Andrew Humber but when it comes to what really matters, i.e. when you press Andrew about it, will you get an NV30 same time as the other sites?

It is becoming obvious what you actually have an issue with Rev.

 

[Teasy]

Hellbinder, you're being "righteous". Get away from 3D gaphics for a while. See if being righteous gets you anywhere you want to be.

That really is typical Reverend.

Tell me - know if K and Wavey talks on ICQ everyday?

That's a completely paranoid thing to say IMO.

Besides, Wavey's barely ever on ICQ AFAICS, and I should know, I'm on ICQ allot

H, you don't seem to realize that the companies at the top of their field don't get there by being nice

So that makes it ok then? If everyone does it (which they don't anyway) then lets all accept it, is that what your saying? Wether it is the reality of the matter or not does not mean we must all become complacent and not show annoyance at these sort of activities.

 

[Bajzel]

I'm a long time lurker as well, don't have the time and knowledge to contribute anything useful, however I gotta say Rev you are way out of line here dragging personal or internal B3d issues out on a public forum.

 

[Pete]

Tell me - know if K and Wavey talks on ICQ everyday?

That's a completely paranoid thing to say IMO.[/quote]Rev didn't say this! he's just reporting what other ppl are saying. It may be a valid concern for school children, but if one is confined by an NDA, nV can always sue. Again, as many others have said, I really doubt nV is sharing proprietary info with any website.

H, you don't seem to realize that the companies at the top of their field don't get there by being nice

So that makes it ok then? If everyone does it (which they don't anyway) then lets all accept it, is that what your saying? Wether it is the reality of the matter or not does not mean we must all become complacent and not show annoyance at these sort of activities.

Oh, boy. *sighs* I'm not saying it's OK, I'm saying, much as Rev is, that that's the ways it is. My quote should make it clear that I dislike it and I'm obviously cynical about business in general (the reason we can use "son of a bitch" on TV is because JFK called steel makers "sons of bitches" in an interview--I heard William Safire relate this morsel on Meet the Press a few days ago ). I've said a few times I dislike what I've heard and seen of nV's business practices in the past, but you really have to expect this of publicly-traded companies run by children like Fastow who seem to have no qualms about screwing other people to get more than his fair share. I liked 3dfx and ATi in general; it's too bad the former made bad business decisions and the latter have delivered an Achilles heel on all of their products.

Does anyone even remember the work Ethics????

There's also a HUGE difference between work and marketing ethics. I certainly don't doubt the quality of nV's products. The main issue we have is how, let's say, "aggressively" they push their products.

 

[Galilee]

There is two reasons why NVIDIA has done so well:
1. Good hardware
2. A great PR department

They don't mind selling their own grandmother, but they get the work done

 

[Hellbinder]

heh.. It was really late/early...

I ment "WORD" Ethics... not "WORK" Ethics...

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Reverend]

Regarding Wavey and Kristof ICQing all the time and not knowing what they talk about. I didn't suggest this - it what a manager at NVIDIA told me when I spoke with him while I was still with Beyond3D trying to convince him to give Beyond3D a NV30. I told him he was being paranoid and was overreacting. I posted this here to let folks know an example of why NVIDIA is hesitant about Beyond3D.

Oh btw, I am sure things may be fine between you and Andrew Humber but when it comes to what really matters, i.e. when you press Andrew about it, will you get an NV30 same time as the other sites?

It is becoming obvious what you actually have an issue with Rev.

Eh? I want Beyond3D to get a NV30 same time as all the other sites. Yes, even now! I'm not sure if Wavey will get it via his relations with Andrew, that is all. I could be wrong, hence, my question.

Anyway, enough of this.

 

[SirPauly]

What I learned here is most reviewers and sites are gutless pawns used by PR to showcase products. If you're truly objective you have the fear that a company may not offer their new product to you.

 

[Dave]

B3D has always had that problem... I remember back in the day when I was threatened by a certain unnamed IHV that if I didn't do what they wanted they wouldn't work with him. To that I say "Screw you!!"

 

[Fred]

This is very silly.

Its a companies perogative to give a website a preview of their tech. Its a favor, not a right.

Its fine to be cynical during the actual review on final silicon, but I mean come on, we're dealing with previews here.

To give an example of what Rev I think is talking about. What if some site on the internet receives a preview tech X.

Then goes on a holy crusade vaunting how there could be 'better' technologies in the future. Well of course there could be, thankfully so, since that implies progress.

I thought the original B3D preview of hardware T&L was in poor taste for instance, since immediately they vaunted the merits of programmability and degraded fixed function T&L. They were right of course, but then again the tech was 2 years away.

I could do the same thing to Truform when it came out, since for instance, there are better higher order surface algorithms to use. Its true of just about any technology.

Instead of applauding the actual advance, it comes off as sort of an unfair bash.

Which obviously leaves a foul taste in the companies perspective.

The moral I guess is. Be cynical and skeptical.. But keep things in perspective relative to the state of the market.

 

[Althornin]

Hey, if they are afraid of an unbiased review, and instead want one that flattters them with no basis for truth, then SCREW THEM.

If thats the requirement to get an NV30, i hope B3D NEVER gets one.
The day this website becomes any IHV's bitch, is the day it dies.

 

[gkar1]

The day this website becomes any IHV's bitch, is the day it dies.

Amen.

 

[Guest]

Hey, if they are afraid of an unbiased review, and instead want one that flattters them with no basis for truth, then SCREW THEM.

If thats the requirement to get an NV30, i hope B3D NEVER gets one.
The day this website becomes any IHV's bitch, is the day it dies.

Well put...

 

[Babel-17]

I think the average graphics card user who also browses review sites is, on average, growing more and more sophisticated.

I am such a user basically and what I crave to read about is hands on gaming experiences from a gamers perspective with a bias to image quality. Only with a lot of effort can I force myself to wade through a review that only has synthetic benchmarks.

I look forward to reading such reviews from Beyond, and the Rev too, and what the trained seals who get early boards have to say is of next to no consequence to my mind.

The comment about new hardware making us emotional hits the nail on the head imo and I recognise the signs within myself. With age I'm getting better at dealing with it though lol, I haven't had to cry myself to sleep over delayed releases since the V5 6000 disappointment. Jk, well mostly.

 

[fresh]

Who gives a rat's ass anyway? When the NV30 is on the shelves, then I'm sure B3D will just go and pick one up and do a review anyway. So it'll be a few weeks later, no big deal. Also how can NVidia send samples to anyone when they haven't even taped out yet!

 

[Reverend]

Hey, if they are afraid of an unbiased review, and instead want one that flattters them with no basis for truth, then SCREW THEM.

If thats the requirement to get an NV30, i hope B3D NEVER gets one.
The day this website becomes any IHV's bitch, is the day it dies.

You're taking all this the wrong way. That is not what NVIDIA wants. They want fair and objective reviews. I don't think they will even mind criticism(s) of any one of their product. The problem is their perception of Beyond3D, the site, its forums and its staff. They don't mind inquisitive minds... their problem is their distinction between inquisitive minds and genuine NVIDIA-bashers at this site.

It's a bit like what I experienced at 3DPulpit, before I joined Beyond3D. That site of mine contained primarily 3dfx articles. I spoke to Derek Perez. I asked for his support, to consider providing me boards for reviews. He asks me why my site has mostly 3dfx stuff. I say that's cause I get on seemingly well with 3dfx and that I hope for a similar relation with NVIDIA.

The point is you can't help it if a company like NVIDIA perceives your site to be, well, whatever they perceive your site to be. If they perceive me or Beyond3D to be the kind of site that doubts NVIDIA continuously, I think it is natural for them to be hesitant.

Can't we move this to General Discussion or somewhere else?

 

[Crusher]

Hey, if they are afraid of an unbiased review, and instead want one that flattters them with no basis for truth, then SCREW THEM.

If thats the requirement to get an NV30, i hope B3D NEVER gets one.
The day this website becomes any IHV's bitch, is the day it dies.

I seriously doubt that NVIDIA is afraid of an unbiased review. In fact, I doubt they're afraid of anything that you or this website is capable of doing to them. What they are trying to avoid is a review that is biased against them. And I for one think they have good reason to be. Geek_2002, Doomtrooper, and Hellbinder, the reason you don't see this is because you are a good portion of the cause behind their fears of bias here. Notice that for all the whining there is about a strong "NVIDIot" presence here, there are virtually no comments being made bashing ATI or their products, and certainly nowhere near as many as there are comments from you guys bashing NVIDIA in one way or another. And the few comments there may be that aren't 100% supportive of ATI are quickly drowned out by the noise of you guys screaming bloody murder because of how unfairly ATI is *always* being treated. If one of you were to write an NV30 review/preview, I can only imagine the number of times you would make comments like:

"Here we can see the Radeon 9700 beat the NV30, despite NVIDIAs claims of superiority, and with the room for driver improvements from ATI we can only assume the Radeon will pull even further ahead in the future."

I'm sure to you it sounds like good journalism, but to a *truely* unbiased reader, it sounds like you are being condescending towards NVIDIAs PR, and you're making a completely one-sided remark about the drivers, since improvment in driver performance is not limited to one company. This is the kind of crap I think NVIDIA is trying to avoid. And I'm giving you guys a lot of credit by using an example as tame as that, since I've noticed much, much worse flow from your fingers when you are talking about NVIDIA. Sure, you can complain that other websites use simliar sentiments towards ATI in their reviews, but that's not NVIDIAs problem, it's ATIs. When I see people such as you continuously try to degrade this company without abandon, and yet don't even put an ounce of effort into finding flaws with the products or companies you like, you give up your ability to make ANY comments regarding bias. Especially in a situation like this, when only a month ago you were supporting Matrox's right to withold review boards from websites they felt would show the Parhelia in an unfair light, but now you claim NVIDIA is the devil for exercising the same liberty.

Cry all you want about NVIDIA's horrible marketing department and how terrible they treat the world, and continue your campaign to try and burn them all at the stake if you wish. In the end, your indignant comments are largely unfounded. And from the other side of the fence, your treatment of NVIDIA is far worse than anything I have ever seen or heard them do.

 

[Typedef Enum]

I'll just state my opinion, and leave it at that.

As a long time member of this website, I can honestly say that I _personally_ feel that the things that separated this website from many of the others (and hey, I realize that 'others' would be nvnews...) are no longer...

It used to be if somebody dared introduced a thread that was either taunting in nature, or responded with personal slams against 'the other manufacturer' you would either get ripped, or the thing would be deleted.

Sadly enough, I think there are definitely those who have made their presence here in this forum and have greatly contributed to what I have just described. I don't need to single anybody out, because anybody with half a brain knows who/what I'm talking about...

Anyhow, if somebody asked me, "Hey dude...what can be done to clean it up?" ...Well, I would instantly delete material that I just knew was going to start yet another ATI vs. nVidia thread. You know, the threads that ultimately go back and forth between 2-4 people, and anybody else just sorta' ignores.

How's this for being P.C....A "zero tolerance" policy...I know, the name is just totally gay (not to be confused with homosexual), but I _think_ that's what this site needs to get back on track.

Just my opinion, of course.