I think it's just slightly poor English. He means the final framebuffer is 1080p, which is the native resolution of most televisions. They render at 1600x900, upscale to 1080p, and then apply AA. At least that's what it seems to mean.
Image Quality and Framebuffer Speculations for WIP/alpha/beta/E3 games *Read the first post*
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I think it's just slightly poor English. He means the final framebuffer is 1080p, which is the native resolution of most televisions. They render at 1600x900, upscale to 1080p, and then apply AA. At least that's what it seems to mean.
COPS N RAPPERS
Regular
Upscaling provides no such multisampling effects by it's self. A Resolution without AA will be without it even if it's upscalled, unless somehow the xbox one provides free AA through it's upscaller.
the only thing that comes to my mind is what Namco did; have a high native res then downscale it and re-output the image. the result is a double pass over the IQ, which gives the distorted effect resembling AA. (going by Digital Foundry's conclusion.)
the only thing that comes to my mind is what Namco did; have a high native res then downscale it and re-output the image. the result is a double pass over the IQ, which gives the distorted effect resembling AA. (going by Digital Foundry's conclusion.)
I meant that they might upscale before applying AA, which would probably be some post-process AA like FXAA. It's hard to tell from what he wrote, but I think that might be what he meant.
Edit: Maybe that is not possible. Not totally sure how the display planes work. I'm assuming they are using the scalers that are provided with the display planes.
COPS N RAPPERS
Regular
IF it was 1080p upscaled + custom AA it would have been simplified as such, convenient for a twitter post. Instead what he said makes no sense as a stand alone but similar to Namco.
That's what comes to my mind.
They're not upscaling using Xbox one's scaler, it's custom. The xbox one renders it at native res, software scales it (which causes softer edges), xbox one outputs it with the soft edge effect. (Exactly like Namco's solution)
That's what comes to my mind.
Not really. It makes most sense to AA before upscaling. AA after upscaling will have muddied information when it comes to spotting edges for filtering. I consider it a nigh certainty that they are rendering at 900p with AA (their AA solution looks high) and then upscaling. There's a small chance that their AA approach includes a deliberate universal blur. There's on in operation in the screenshots I've seen. Blurring does reducing aliasing, so it wouldn't be entirely inaccurate to call an upscale+blur post process AA.
COPS N RAPPERS
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Not shooting down Either one's theory being right or wrong, or be it a mistranslation on Crytek's part, though i do find it odd that No one from Crytek corrected his statement in all this time for a big exclusive.
The theory to which Namco's technique follows closely to the words laid out. I could try working the quote's equation in a different manner, which would make things even less sense.
??????????
the Xbox one doesn't need software to upscale.
The theory to which Namco's technique follows closely to the words laid out. I could try working the quote's equation in a different manner, which would make things even less sense.
Xbox one runs ryse at 1600x900, software upscales it to native 1080p.
??????????
the Xbox one doesn't need software to upscale.
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Isn't Namco's method supersampling AA?
COPS N RAPPERS
Regular
That would be my guess, which is the same situation for Ryse.
considering that the xbox one can upscale on it's own to 1080p, using custom software to do just that would be pointless. what makes perfect sense is -
The Xbox one runs the game at native res, software supersamples it, xbox one outputs it to required display settings.
Read my post. This makes sense and is not pointless.
That's daft. That means the game is rendering 1080p, then being reduced in size, and then upscaled. That results in the same information density as the 1080p original but without the clarity of a native render. And with a downsampling step adding to the processing overhead, it's just a waste of effort. If all one's after is a blurring of the original native resolution, just apply a blur filter.
Tip: most CEOs are not technical and don't know what they are talking about.
Ryse rendering at native 900p and blow up to 1080p output, there's no ifs and buts about it. Higher resolution != image quality, if you blow up a PS1 game to 4K it'll still look like crap by today's standard.
Ryse rendering at native 900p and blow up to 1080p output, there's no ifs and buts about it. Higher resolution != image quality, if you blow up a PS1 game to 4K it'll still look like crap by today's standard.
COPS N RAPPERS
Regular
Honestly both theories seem daft one way or an other. you're suggesting 900p + blur filter before upscaling it to 1080p is crisper IQ apposed to supersampling from 1080p. the goal is to retain IQ not smear it up.
When I see Ryse i don't see much smearing, but I do see the pointless back and forth rendering logic you're referring to with supersampling, but that's how it works.
I don't know which is more correct, but i'm up for more suggestions till DF puts up their spread on Ryse.
I hope thats not about Cevat Yerli though
Rendering to somehing like 2560x1440 as the final frame buffer and then down sampling to 1080P is a legit AA method known as super sampling. I'm not sure what you are describing, it sounds like scaling up and then down, which is a recipe for low IQ.
Super Sampling usually works in linear powers of 2, scaling to provide a nice even square to sample from for the subsequent down sampling. The weird math from 1920x080 to 1600x900 (~17% reduction in linear distance) rules out SSAA, a multi-sampling AA algorithm might work but I've never really understood how those work so hopefully others can confirm/deny.
I think the idea of rendering at 1080p, downscaling and then upscaling makes no sense anyway, as others have already pointed out that would produce worse IQ than just outputting the base 1080p image. Cervat Yerli is an engineer who also 'just happens' to be a CEO so if he says it's an upscale, it's an upscale. If they're using their own s/w upscaler rather than the XB1 h/w scaler it's probably just because they prefer the IQ from their s/w scaler or want to show off that aspect of the Cry Engine to potential licensees.
I think the idea of rendering at 1080p, downscaling and then upscaling makes no sense anyway, as others have already pointed out that would produce worse IQ than just outputting the base 1080p image. Cervat Yerli is an engineer who also 'just happens' to be a CEO so if he says it's an upscale, it's an upscale. If they're using their own s/w upscaler rather than the XB1 h/w scaler it's probably just because they prefer the IQ from their s/w scaler or want to show off that aspect of the Cry Engine to potential licensees.
COPS N RAPPERS
Regular
both theories could be a recipe for low IQ, though anything using a blur filter in combination usually goes down hill from there. games with it usually look miles better without it, like 360's portal 2. In Ryses case it's IQ remains intact.
I wasn't talking about that at all. The two ideas were discussed discretely. I'm saying the idea of downsampling 1080p and then upsampling it again is stupid. You'd just stick with the 1080p original. If you intend to do that, then instead take 1080p and blur it. You'll get the same results (better, actually, although imperceptibly as we're talking about quality of small radius blur) for less effort.
If you're not going with the shrink-and-grow solution, then the actual sensible approach given the info we have is to render the game at 900p with AA and then upscale. Choice of blur filter is artistic. It can be used for 'AA' but I don't think that's the case here, nor what I was recommending.
What do you mean 'that's how it works'? No-one does that. You don't take a native resolution screen, shirnk it (unless you need the performance or something) and then grow it back to native. That doesn't introduce AA. That introduces blur, and it's quicker and easier to just blur.
If you're talking about Tekken 6, Namco are rendering 768p and supersampling for 720p output. It only gets upscaled again if you output to a 768p display - that's not a deliberate part of the output pipeline. Otherwise, for 720p Namco would be rendering 720p, shrinking to something like 600p, and upscaling to the TV. Which they don't do because that'd be crazy!
The uncrazy solution here - Ryse is rendered at 900p with AA just as normal, and upscaled just as normal, like every developer does when rendering sub-native.
COPS N RAPPERS
Regular
It's already been done, proof. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/xbox-360-vs-ps3-face-off-round-14-article?page=2
And the results was better than 720p with blur filters like Portal 2, proof.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...-format-comparison-gallery-comparison-gallery
It isn't worded that way though. The upscaler IS the AA solution they say they're using. they're probably not thinking about a better looking 1080p; rather a better looking 900p with 1080p attributes apposed to filters and FXAA at 900p. which is probably why some say Ryse's IQ looks pretty close.
I'm just going by what is worded and what i see.
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I'm not following after skimping through the links....can you quote the exact voodoo that's being applied here on the big->small->big scaling which would improve IQ?
