How Do I Embrace Fantasy? How Did You?

[Color me Dan]

Rambly friday thought: I've always been a sci-fi guy. Be it a space opera like Foundation or hard science fiction like Rama, sci-fi is my jam. But I should really love fantasy, and many times enjoy it. Often times the aesthetics, atmosphere, and stories are simply great. But the magic... I can begrudgingly accept it at best. There is some mental hiccups here I need to overcome. And I don't know exactly how yet.

Advanced enough technology may be indistinguishable from magic. I can accept the leaps of faith sci-fi asks of me because I imagine that I vaguely understand the rules it operates on. My mind gives no such leeway to fantasy. It will question everything. Perhaps the most recurring feeling of absurdity stems from the fact that, more often then not, despite power over literal gods or elements, society and technology is still roughly in the middle ages?

I want to shush my brain and tell it to enjoy itself. It's an alternate reality, not a version of our reality. But it's stubborn so far.

Anyone else have a similar experience? And if you overcame it, how?

 

[Dominik D]

Not every fantasy has magic. If magic is the obstacle, start with something low on the spectrum. Joe Abercrombie or Guy Gavriel Kay are probably the best starting point.

 

[orangpelupa]

Try to consume fantasy media where magic is used logically. As most fantasy media, for some unknown reason, prefers to not use magic logically.

Despite there are so many logical stuff can be done with magic.

For example, using barrier magic and flame magic to poison the air (exhaust the oxygen), thus killing people inside the barrier. So even basic level mage can do Lotta damage.

 

[arandomguy]

Do you have trouble with regenerating to full health after being shot multiple times?

In all seriousness I guess how you can resolve this is that worlds with magic don't follow the same laws of physics. This I believe has been theorized as possible in that our laws of physics only pertains to our universe.

In terms of world development it's not actually as illogical as it might seem. Technological development is often driven by whats neccesary and whats available. You like Sci-Fi for instance as an example I don't know if you've read Ringworld but that world setting is stuck on medieval/pre-industrial development with the explanation that the world itself doesn't have the same resources as ours due to it's constraints (eg. no fossil fuels). Likewise if the brightest minds are all focused on studying magic they wouldn't for example be focused on developing a semi-conductor industry.

I'm curious do you like science fantasy? A lot of space opera is science fantasy, take Star Wars notably. While not medieval in setting it's actually quite backwards and technologically behind outside of space travel, vehicles, and maybe robotics compared to today. The force is effectively magic.

 

[homerdog]

It's often unclear to me in fantasy whether the normal laws of physics apply. In Lord of the Rings it is implied that gunpowder does exist and at least Sarumon (and maybe Aragorn) knows about it. But if this is the case it seems that at some point in the many thousands of years of civilization, someone would have put together a musket.

It's also fun to consider that in many fantasy universes, even the most powerful magics would be destroyed by modern technology. I'd like the see the dragons in Game of Thrones go up against a squadron of F15s. Or the army sieging Helm's Deep to encounter an artillery battalion.

 

[Color me Dan]

I'm curious do you like science fantasy? A lot of space opera is science fantasy, take Star Wars notably. While not medieval in setting it's actually quite backwards and technologically behind outside of space travel, vehicles, and maybe robotics compared to today. The force is effectively magic.

Star Wars is weird. I enjoy it, but I think I accept it because its magic is beholden to very, very, few. I can compartmentalize that somehow. Inequality of access is a common theme in Sci-Fi, and our own world, so I accept that more readily as well. But I do enjoy parts of the franchise with less focus on the force the most. Andor and Mandalorian for example.

When it comes to fantasy I do enjoy Elder Scrolls, but I tend to favor character builds that don't use magic to a huge degree. I also like some of the Final Fantasy games and Baldurs Gate (thought I've never finished one) for their stories. But I always feel in over my head when it comes to magical systems.

Book wise I've never actually read fantasy as an adult. As a young'un I read The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, and Harry Potter. And I tried reading Lord of the Rings. And while they were good books, I didn't feel enveloped by their worlds like I did reading The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, Dune, or Rama.

Annoyingly I feel this is a kind of personal failing. I want to enjoy Final Fantasy as effortlessly as I enjoy The Matrix. Perhaps that's part of the issue. It takes effort for me to get into the world when I don't have parallels to draw from?

 

[Color me Dan]

Both @orangpelupa and @homerdog hit on things I think about a lot in fantasy.

I dunno, there is a lot of lazy sci-fi and the likes of science opera as well. So maybe there is some "hard fantasy" that has rules I have an easier time digesting?

 

[orangpelupa]

It's often unclear to me in fantasy whether the normal laws of physics apply. In Lord of the Rings it is implied that gunpowder does exist and at least Sarumon (and maybe Aragorn) knows about it. But if this is the case it seems that at some point in the many thousands of years of civilization, someone would have put together a musket.

It's also fun to consider that in many fantasy universes, even the most powerful magics would be destroyed by modern technology. I'd like the see the dragons in Game of Thrones go up against a squadron of F15s. Or the army sieging Helm's Deep to encounter an artillery battalion.

Try reading japan summon Manga.

The premise is Japan got teleported to a magic fantasy world. Complete with JSDF.

 

[orangpelupa]

Annoyingly I feel this is a kind of personal failing. I want to enjoy Final Fantasy as effortlessly as I enjoy The Matrix. Perhaps that's part of the issue. It takes effort for me to get into the world when I don't have parallels to draw from?

How about final fantasy xv? The fire magic for example, can propagate into bushes, etc

 

[Color me Dan]

How about final fantasy xv? The fire magic for example, can propagate into bushes, etc

I'll give it a go. Maybe the Kingsglaive movie will make more sense to me. I liked it, but I'm sure I'll get more out of it if I play the games. Maybe.

 

[homerdog]

Try reading japan summon Manga.

The premise is Japan got teleported to a magic fantasy world. Complete with JSDF.

Not exactly fantasy but I read a trilogy called Axis of Time about a decade ago. The first book was written in 2004 and is about a 2021 coalition naval fleet (including a US carrier) getting transported back to WW2 (battle of Midway). It is entertaining on many levels. The author basically predicted we would have Crysis style nanosuits by 2021 I enjoyed the hell out of it.

 

[homerdog]

If you want to know what turned out to be the most effective modern tech in WW2 era naval combat:

Spoiler: spoiler

nuclear powered attack submarine

 

[fehu]

Try Larry Niven, where magic is literally technology.
While what won me over was Berserk, and then the Lord of the rings / The Hobbit books.
Then it was a spiral in Forgotten realms Shannara and such.

American gods / Anansi boys is a good starting point for urban fantasy too.
In this category you can try Dresden files, that I didn't liked but it's pretty popular.

Anyway, the problem is that while there's plenty of trash scifi, real scifi is applied philosophy and can open your mind.
Fantasy is mostly adolescent level power fantasies, that are year over year harder to relate and enjoy.

 

[fehu]

Try to consume fantasy media where magic is used logically. As most fantasy media, for some unknown reason, prefers to not use magic logically.

Some time ago there was a lot of debate on this topic.
One side argued that magic to be interesting has to have limits, and rules, be logical and predictable, and respect the principle of equivalent exchange (like full metal alchemist). Because you need to grasp it to enjoy it.
The other side typically responded with shut up it's magic not science, it has to be unintelligible.

 

[fehu]

I'd like the see the dragons in Game of Thrones go up against a squadron of F15s. Or the army sieging Helm's Deep to encounter an artillery battalion.

You have 2 wishes left

 

[Color me Dan]

Some time ago there was a lot of debate on this topic.
One side argued that magic to be interesting has to have limits, and rules, be logical and predictable, and respect the principle of equivalent exchange (like full metal alchemist). Because you need to grasp it to enjoy it.
The other side typically responded with shut up it's magic not science, it has to be unintelligible.

I suppose it depends on what the authors finds an interest in. Sci-Fi can be just as mindless. Basically being an authors deus ex machina for whatever situation they find themselves in. The onus being less on the sci and heavier on the fi. Which I think is why i enjoy Sc-FI that has put some thought into what the technology entails. Which I suppose becomes a philosophical critique of one aspect of humanity or another in a lot of cases. Highlighting our strengths and our flaws, or our differences. Which I think it's fair to say that works like Witcher or LoTR do as well.

I do get the feeling that some fantasy might share an appeal with religiosity. The sense that there is something more powerful "beyond the veil" that some might be able to tap into in one way or another. Rules becoming less relevant in favor of faith. But then I'm not religious, so I can't say I have a close understanding of that kind of feeling.

 

[Davros]

Makes sense, magic believers would like media about magic

 

[arandomguy]

Not exactly fantasy but I read a trilogy called Axis of Time about a decade ago. The first book was written in 2004 and is about a 2021 coalition naval fleet (including a US carrier) getting transported back to WW2 (battle of Midway). It is entertaining on many levels. The author basically predicted we would have Crysis style nanosuits by 2021 I enjoyed the hell out of it.

This is real footage -

well filmed with actual planes anyways.

 

[GhostofWar]

Or the army sieging Helm's Deep to encounter an artillery battalion.

Maybe not too much longer until you test that out

 

[orangpelupa]

You have 2 wishes left

Unfortunately that series in the manga devolved into typical "isekai crap". So it's good that the anime ends early.