HDR Displays?

Snyder said:
Squeak said:
Xmas said:
The difference between VR goggles and reality isn't perceiving two different images, but that those images are fixed on a single focal plane. You can't focus on an object to see it in more detail. All objects are as sharp as it gets, and your eyes are permanently focused on something very close.
This might be a cause of headache for some, but I don't see this being any different with any kind of single-eye dominance.
That depends on the focal length of the lens that's projecting the image into your eye. On any VR headset made by a competent person the "screen distance" will be set so that it's comfortable.
Actually F1 drivers had a similar problem with the HUD displays in their helmets some years ago. They had to refocus every time they looked at it, and thereby taking attention away from the road for a second. The problem was solved by inserting a different lens between display and eye.

But the HUD displays are a single 2D plane. For a full 3D VR display you would need a multifocal lens system combined with an eye-tracking system which would check at which point of the image the user is currently looking at and correctly adjusting the focal length. Or something like that.

The lens is focused to a specific distance (probably something like 30 feet or greater) which isn't a problem to see in most cases. When another objects is closer and requires you to refocus on it, the HUD is probably not where your attention needs to be anyways.
 
aranfell said:
I certainly didn't see what was wrong with the non-HDR images until I looked at the HDR display.

Too true. It's hard to conceive the difference until you look at them side by side. The standard display looks "flat". Both in intensity and shape. The latter is interesting because nothing in psych literature indicates that it should be the case, but it is.
 
Thanks squarewithin for joining the discussion and welcome!

IMHO (but I have the feeling that I'm not alone), the hddvd standard really-really should integrate HDR. Do you know what's the status of HDR in the HDDVD standard and could you tell us a bit of it? Thanks! :)
 
Remi said:
IMHO (but I have the feeling that I'm not alone), the hddvd standard really-really should integrate HDR. Do you know what's the status of HDR in the HDDVD standard and could you tell us a bit of it? Thanks! :)

I wish I knew anything to tell you. I know nothing one way or the other.
 
squarewithin said:
Hey, what's up. I've been lurking around these forums for some time, but never got my lazy self around to registering and commenting. Seeing this discussion on the HDR display, a topic near and dear to me (being one of the authors, and a Sunnybrook employee), I figured this would be an ideal time to register and throw what I know into the fray. It's probably best to just do one monster post replying to everyone's comments as best I am able to.

The basic concept described is right. We take an off-the-shelf LCD panel, and stick a bunch of LEDs behind it. You can control them all separately, so you have a low-res monochrome HDR backlight, and a high-res color LDR front panel. You drive these in tandem to achieve the full dynamic range. The basic idea is a solution for the fact that LCD panels can only block so much light. If you want, brighter brights, without what we do, you get brighter darks as well.


Apple740 : No, it runs as fast as a norwal display with GPU-based image processing.

Bjorn : That sony display is a completely different backlight technology, though it is true that they both use LEDs. The Sony (and NEC has one as well) use 3 different color LEDs to improve the color gamut of the display. (Note that in this case, "colors" in the sense that you display has 16 million "colors" is not the same. I mean color gamut, the most saturated chromacity that can be displayed. This has nothing to do with the intensity of the light.) The HDR display, on the other hand, uses LEDs to create a spatially-variant backlight that can be considerably brighter (and darker) than a normal display. The LEDs used have roughly the same spectra as a coventional LCD backlight, and to nothing to improve the gamut.

aranfell : The lens in your eyes in considerably lower quality than optical glass. If you look at a bright point (roughly 150x brighter than the surround), light leaks over into the dark surround, obscuring the detail. So you can have errors in the surround you can't see.

Remi : Yes, there are fairly effective ways to fake it that look good.

Chalnoth : Because there are only a few LED values, we can pack the entire backlight into a single scanline of the DVI signal.

Mintmaster : All the movie studios process in HDR. They throw away tons of data when they bake a DVD for you. For text on a white background 100:1 contrast is great. I can assure you, at Siggraph, pretty much everyone who saw videos on it wanted one. The real world has more dynamic range than your TV. Many people want to see that.

Brimstone : It'd take any game studio with an HDR render engine less than a week to drop in the SDK and output to the display.

Mintmaster : The dynamic range of film is greater than an LCD monitor. Movie studios are dying for these for their compositors and lighting designers.

Fred da Rosa : Several are under discussion.


Alright. Phew. That's a start on answering some questions. It's all a very simplistic view of what we are doing but is a start. I'll be glad to answer more questions within my ability. I'm trying to get some good comprehensive write-ups on HDR in general, the specifics on the display, and especially the psychophysics involved since that is the most foreign to CS people. Other than that, have a look at the paper if you are interested : http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~mmt/Siggraph.04.pdf

Too cool and yes NEC uses a different LED backlight method for a wider color gamut for their professional highend LCDs announced a year ago. The SONY LCD tv announced recently uses a simlar system for better color gamut too. Both are neither HDR type displays. Anyway I'm hoping the Sunnybrook HDR technology gets into LCDs for computers in the next couple of years as well as LCD tvs for homes. 8)
 
squarewithin said:
Remi said:
IMHO (but I have the feeling that I'm not alone), the hddvd standard really-really should integrate HDR. Do you know what's the status of HDR in the HDDVD standard and could you tell us a bit of it? Thanks! :)

I wish I knew anything to tell you. I know nothing one way or the other.

as HDDVD's require an advanced, and powerful compression algo, i'd doupt it. i have a HD-DVD at home, it's a 7.5GB WMV9 compressed video.

the movie is 110 minutes long, fills the whole dvd, and that with newest technology, and "only" 720p resolution..

we don't have ANY hd-movie compression algo yet. all mpeg, all wmv, all divx codecs work so well by knowing they work on a small, fixed range..

we're at zero for compressing hdr images.. not to talk about movies..
 
SteveHill said:
davepermen said:
we're at zero for compressing hdr images.. not to talk about movies..
That's not entirely true:
http://www.cs.ucf.edu/graphics/hdri/index.php

I'm expect there's other research besides, since I only expended about 5 seconds of search time in digging the above up.

http://www.anyhere.com/gward/papers/apgv04/index.html
and
http://www.mpi-sb.mpg.de/resources/hdrvideo/index.html

are the 2 major publications on it I've seen. The latter addresses HDR block artifact correction. I haven't had the chance to look at the UCF one yet. These aro all still pretty primitive compared to what I think is possible. But we have to wait for the psych research to catch up to make suggestions.
 
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