Hamas spiritual leader killed.

[I.S.T.]

I agree.

Maggi, you do know he funds those groups, right? Hell, IIRC he helped found either Hamas or Jihad.

Well, the Israeli government helped found Hamas, too.

Um, what the hell?

 

[Clashman]

How did they help found a terrorist group that would be utilized to attack its one people?

Apparenty, both directly and indirectly. There were apparently several goals in mind, first and foremost to undermine the PLO and Fatah, but also to spy on more radical elements of Islamic Palestinian guerrilla movements. After awhile, Hamas implemented an extensive counter-espionage system, weeded out the collaborators, and shot them.

Here's a couple of articles on the subject, to start:
http://www.upi.com/print.cfm?StoryID=18062002-051845-8272r
http://www.counterpunch.org/hanania01182003.html
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2002/2902isr_hamas.html

Edit2: Found this interesting:

The Oslo Accords marked the first glimmer of hope for a resolution of the Middle East conflict. And, the first suicide terrorist attack aimed at destroying it was not launched by Hamas or Islamic Jihad or another Palestinian faction. The first suicide attack was launched on Feb. 25, 1994, by Israeli terrorist Baruch Goldstein, when he entered the Mosque of Hebron and killed 50 Muslim worshippers as well as himself. Goldstein was a member of Kach, the terrorist organization founded by the late Meir Kahane, who also founded the Jewish Defense League in the 1960s in the United States. Kach, which is well connected to Sharon, is on the official U.S. State Department list of terrorist organizations.

Edit: Also, a good article on the history of tensions between Fatah and Hamas:
http://www.middleeastinfo.org/article2714.html

An exerpt:

Why did Hamas persist in its refusal to come to terms with Fatah, to forge the equivalent of Israel's "national unity" government? According to documents recently seized in Gaza by the IDF, Hamas recognizes Fatah's current weakness, and its confidence has grown to the point where it sees itself as one of "the influential forces in the Arab-Zionist equation."[37] In these documents, Hamas notes that the PA has "collapsed, its infrastructure has been destroyed, and it suffers rifts and divisions ? in short, the PA has been dismantled and must be reassembled according to new conditions."[38] Those "new conditions" have persuaded Hamas that it can legitimately claim a place of primacy in any new order, and that it has nothing to gain by legitimizing the PA.

Hamas also seems to have realized that its violence not only demoralizes Israel but also undermines the PA. Every time Hamas attacks an Israeli target, either inside Israel proper or in the Palestinian territories, the attack elicits an Israeli reprisal?against the PA. Israel does sometimes resort to "targeted killings" and manhunts of Hamas operatives. But it just as often retaliates against PA infrastructure (e.g., police stations, government buildings, Arafat's compound in Ramallah). Israeli retaliation, in the aggregate, has actually weakened the PA (and its Fatah tributary) more than Hamas.

To put it another way, Hamas is able to kill two birds with one stone. By attacking Israel, it boosts its popularity with Palestinians, and it elicits an Israeli retaliation that, in most instances, damages the PA and possibly paves the way to Fatah's disintegration. Given these tangible rewards for terror, Hamas has no reason to desist.

It then should come as no surprise that the various "dialogues" between Fatah and Hamas have yielded little or nothing in the way of reducing terror. In fact, the only cumulative effect of these talks has been to legitimize Hamas still further, through Egyptian sponsorship of the talks. The Israeli Ha'aretz daily notes that "the Europeans, the Americans, and the Egyptians all treated the Islamic groups as the de facto equal of Fatah and the Palestinian Authority."[39]

 

[Legion]

Apparenty, both directly and indirectly. There were apparently several goals in mind, first and foremost to undermine the PLO and Fatah, but also to spy on more radical elements of Islamic Palestinian guerrilla movements. After awhile, Hamas implemented an extensive counter-espionage system, weeded out the collaborators, and shot them.

sounds like a pretty good plan that backfired when Muslim radicals learned of the situation. The associations between the Fatah, PA and Hamas are duly noted. Your articles have certainly reinforced the importants of removing the PA and Arafat from a point of manipulation and control of the west bank arabs.

A quote from your article:

According to ICT papers, Hamas was legally registered in Israel in 1978 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the movement's spiritual leader, as an Islamic Association by the name Al-Mujamma al Islami, which widened its base of supporters and sympathizers by religious propaganda and social work.

Seems to be Arabs founded Hamas Clashman.

ICT Site corresponds data:

The Hamas movement was legally registered in Israel in 1978 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the movement?s spiritual leader, as an Islamic Association by the name Al-Mujamma Al Islami, which widened its base of supporters and sympathizers by religious propaganda and social work.
A great part of the success of Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood is due to their influence in the Gaza Strip. The large numbers of refugees, the socio-economic hardships of the population in the refugee camps and the relatively low status of the nationalist elements there until recently, enabled Hamas to deepen its roots among the refugees. Its emphasis on a solution that would include the liberation of all Palestine is more attractive to the Gazans, beyond the social factors that nourish the Islamic influence in that area

-btw i use the ICT link to provide interesting statistics below. All in all i have found your links very useful. Thank you for presenting them.

ICT discussing Hamas
http://www.ict.org.il/inter_ter/orgdet.cfm?orgid=13

Here is something i found wrt Rachel Corrie
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=10031

I couldn't leave out the palistinian family values slideshow
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pal-child-abuse/?imgIndex=15&autoShow=6

Analysis of death statistics (quite interesting)
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=439

 

[Clashman]

sounds like a pretty good plan that backfired when Muslim radicals learned of the situation. The associations between the Fatah, PA and Hamas are duly noted. Your articles have certainly reinforced the importants of removing the PA and Arafat from a point of manipulation and control of the west bank arabs.

You've got to be shitting me! Arafat and Fatah try and pressure Hamas NOT to attack Israeli civilians, and to turn towards the peace process, and somehow in your deluded mind that reinforces the necessity of removing Arafat from power? When discrediting the PA is EXACTLY what Hamas and Islamic Jihad want, as it will give MORE power to them? Astounding.

The fact of the matter is that extremist elements on both sides benefit one another. Likud gets a boost when a terrorist attack occurs, and it gives them a chance to derail a peace process they don't want to happen. Hamas gets more recruits with every Israeli attack, (which Likud is more likely to engage in), and since the PA is usually the target for Israeli reprisals, they gain even more, and they then get the chance to derail a peace process they want no part in. Once again, I doubt it works much different anywhere else, which is why the Spanish elections are such a strange anomaly, because ordinarilly those attacks should have provided a big boost to the PP.

Seems to be Arabs founded Hamas Clashman.

With financing from Likud.

Here is something i found wrt Rachel Corrie
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=10031

Well, we have a right-wing Zionist calling her a terrorist, for nonviolently resisting the occupation, (which is what she was doing. The vast majority of houses bulldozed are destroyed not because they have any connection to terrorism, but because they don't have a building permit from the Israeli state. And of course if the land you own is anywhere in the vicinity of an illegal settlement guess what your chances of getting a building permit?). Why am I not surprised?

I couldn't leave out the palistinian family values slideshow
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pal-child-abuse/?imgIndex=15&autoShow=6

As opposed to all those peace-loving Israeli settlers and IDF soldiers?
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/israel.palestine/vid22001.html

Analysis of death statistics (quite interesting)
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=439

Let's just say I find these statistics HIGHLY suspect. Circumstances of death are rarely investigated, and both sides are known to outright exaggerate of falsify claims. For instance, while your site did choose to carefully outline plenty of statistics about the amount of women killed in the Intifada, the fact that far more Palestinian children were killed, (and in greater proportion), than Israeli and went unnoticed is peculiar.

 

[Legion]

You've got to be shitting me! Arafat and Fatah try and pressure Hamas NOT to attack Israeli civilians, and to turn towards the peace process, and somehow in your deluded mind that reinforces the necessity of removing Arafat from power? When discrediting the PA is EXACTLY what Hamas and Islamic Jihad want, as it will give MORE power to them? Astounding.

You've got to be shitting me if you think the Israeli government it supporting arab terrorism against themselves. No where at any reputable source can i find information that correlates these stories you have presented.

Here is what FAS.org and ICT say about financing:

FAS

External Aid

Receives some funding from Iran but primarily relies on donations from Palestinianexpatriates around the world and private benefactors in moderate Arab states. Some fundraising and propaganda activity take place in Western Europe and North America.

ICT

Hamas enjoys strong financial backing. In fact, its rivals claim that this is major reason for its strength. Hamas receives financial support from unofficial bodies in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states, and recently also from Iran. These funds are distributed among the various groups and associations identified with the movement, and from them filter down to the operatives in the field.
A broad network of charity associations (Jamayath Hiriya) and committees (Lejan Zekath) operates in the Territories, on the basis of two Jordanian statutes: the Charity Association and Social Institutions Law, and the Charity Fund-Raising Regulations. Hamas makes extensive use of many of these charity associations and committees, which (together with the mosques, unions, etc.) also serve as the overt facade of the organization's activity, operating parallel to and serving its covert operations. The movement's ideology attributes great importance to the giving of charity (zekath, which is also one of the five basic principles of Islam). Giving charity can serve to bring the people closer to Islam and, as a result, to broaden the ranks of Hamas.

The network of charity associations serves as a screen for its covert activities, including liaison with the movement's leadership abroad, the transfer of funds to field operatives, and the identification of potential recruits. The great importance which Hamas attaches to the overt aspect of its operations - charity and welfare - has been particularly evident since the extensive arrest and exclusion of many of its operatives.

An important aspect of the charity associations and committees is their role as a means for the channeling of funds into the region. While part of these funds is in fact used for charity, it is not always possible to distinguish between the 'innocent' activity of the charity associations and the funding of covert, subversive and terrorist activity. Thus, for example, the associations pay fines and assist the families of operatives who are arrested, or the operatives themselves. Such donations are defined as charity, but are in fact given to the hard and active core of Hamas. The charity associations can also help in transfering funds to Hamas through their financial-administrative infrastructure.

The methods commonly used to transfer funds are through moneychangers, checks drawn on accounts of operatives and firms abroad, foreign business accounts of economic concerns in the Territories, and direct cash transfers from abroad, usually through Western banks (in Britain, the U.S. and Germany). The Islamic Movement in Israel also serves as a channel for the transfer of funds.

If you believe Arafat's support of FATAH, Al-Aqsa, PA and the PLO are purely inocent and this man is driven for peace you are without a doubt the most naive or stupid person i have ever spoken to.

Hamas and the PLO/PA have had a history of problems mainly dealing with who represents the palis.

History of Al Aqsa:
http://www.ict.org.il/organizations/org_frame.cfm?orgid=83

History
The al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades first emerged on the scene shortly after the outbreak of what has come to be known as the al-Aqsa conflict, in late September 2000. In a very real sense, the Martyrs Brigades was a response to the need to suit actions to words.
At the close of the Camp David talks, Palestinian leader Yassir Arafat, who had been offered a Palestinian state alongside of—but not instead of—Israel, declared that the Oslo Peace Process was at a dead end. At the time, the Fatah militias, consisting of the Fatah Tanzim, Force-17, and the various Palestinian security services, were still viewed, both by Israel and by the Palestinians themselves, as moderate forces. Ideologically, they supported what had been, up until then, the Palestinian leader’s stated goal of establishing a Palestinian state alongside Israel.

After Arafat returned to armed struggle, these stated goals underwent a change, and the nature of the Fatah-linked groups has altered accordingly. Since the outbreak of hostilities, Arafat has consistently preached “Jihad†against Israel. However, at first it was mostly the Islamist groups, Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, that carried out the mass-casualty attacks inside Israel. The Tanzim, which lacked the resources for carrying out the kind of “professional†bombings typical of Hamas, confined itself to shooting attacks on Israelis on roads in the disputed territories.

All of this began to change towards the end of 2000, when Arafat ordered his security services to release the majority of the imprisoned Hamas and Islamic Jihad militants—many of them convicted terrorists who had been jailed under the terms of the Oslo agreements with Israel. Hamas was invited to join the Palestinian Authority’s governing body; and while the invitation was not accepted, a new level of cooperation between Fatah and Hamas began to take shape. The first joint attacks against Israeli civilians were not long in coming.

The question of Arafat’s role

The al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades are not a “rogue militia†as Arafat claimed in the past. Rather its members are on the Palestinian Authority’s payroll, it activities are financed out of Palestinian Authority coffers, and its attacks are carried out with the knowledge and backing of Yassir Arafat’s inner circle. In an interview with USA Today on March 14, 2002, Maslama Thabet, another leader of the Brigades, described the group as an integral part of Fatah. “The truth is, we are Fatah itself, but we don’t operate under the name Fatah. We are the armed wing of the organization. We receive our instructions from Fatah. Our commander is Yassir Arafat himself.â€

Other leaders of the al-Aqsa Brigades insist that, while they hold Arafat in high esteem, they do not take their orders regarding individual attacks from him. At the same time, Israeli security officials maintain that Arafat exerts a large measure of control over all the Fatah-affiliated organizations, paying the salaries of their members and supplying them with weapons. And while he may not determine the target and timing of each individual attack, he definitely sets the overall agenda. In fact, this was true to a great extent even with regard to the “opposition†Islamist groups prior to the outbreak of hostilities. These organizations, while not directly controlled by Arafat, were still dependent upon his willingness to leave their military capabilities intact.

Moreover, Arafat remains in control of the media. This means that while Arafat’s credibility with his own people may suffer some erosion, his position as a symbol is unassailable. His popularity may be expected to weather the storm, if only because by controlling the media, Arafat controls the standards of popularity. From the outset, it was the official messages, disseminated through the radio, television and the PA-salaried preachers, that most strongly influenced the thinking of the Palestinian street. Terrorist attacks, formerly portrayed as a politically counter-productive tool to be used only as a last resort, are now hailed as the pinnacle of glory in the Palestinian cause. Having sold martyrdom as the highest goal for which every Palestinian child should strive, Arafat has been forced to match his actions (or at least the actions of those who take his orders) to his words.

The role of the Martyrs of al-Aqsa Brigades in rebuilding Fatah’s popularity has raised questions about Arafat’s power to restrain it. Many argue that any attempt by the Palestinian leader to rein in the militants now, when they are the key to his popularity, would only lead to a mutiny against his rule or to his assassination.

At the heart of Arafat’s dilemma is the need to continue to mobilize his society for conflict with Israel, despite the fact that he can present his people with no real achievements from the “intifada.†The ultimate victims of Palestinian terrorism have been the Palestinians themselves, due in large part to the failure of the Palestinian Authority to develop a self-sufficient economy. The livelihood of most Palestinians has always depended—directly or indirectly—on the earnings of Palestinians working in Israel. Since the outbreak of hostilities, Israel, fearful of terrorist attacks, has virtually closed its borders to Palestinian laborers. At the same time, tourism, a mainstay of both the Palestinian and the Israeli economies, has dropped to a trickle. Thus, Arafat is forced to continue to justify a war that, while saving him the need to address domestic concerns, has brought the Palestinian people nothing but grief. The same dilemma faces Arafat with respect to the activities of his own terrorist apparatus. Taken together, the Fatah groups enjoy the overwhelming support of Arafat’s constituency, and he has invested a great deal in keeping them armed and active, even while his civilian infrastructure languishes for lack of funds and attention. Here too, he must justify an investment that has so far failed to deliver any profit at all.

While the degree to which Arafat controls the Tanzim—and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades—is still subject to debate, most analysts are in agreement that his control is much greater than he makes it out to be.

Arafat's ties to terrorism:
http://www.jcpa.org/brief/brief3-6.htm
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelterrorismhamasashdod120062.html
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=786
http://www.israelinsider.com/views/articles/views_0138.htm
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/yasir_arafat.htm


PLO Origin:
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_plo_arafat.php

The fact of the matter is that extremist elements on both sides benefit one another. Likud gets a boost when a terrorist attack occurs, and it gives them a chance to derail a peace process they don't want to happen.

Oh please, please stop this conspiracy crap. Find a reputable source for your information or shove it up your ass because i am tired of your left wing half ass webpages.

Hamas gets more recruits with every Israeli attack, (which Likud is more likely to engage in), and since the PA is usually the target for Israeli reprisals, they gain even more, and they then get the chance to derail a peace process they want no part in. Once again, I doubt it works much different anywhere else, which is why the Spanish elections are such a strange anomaly, because ordinarilly those attacks should have provided a big boost to the PP.

Of course these statements come after completely ignoring the ICTs review of Arafat's involvment in the PA, PLO, Al-Aqsa and support of terrorism overall in Israel.

With financing from Likud.

Provide some reputable sources please.

You were wrong Clash. The Hamas was stated in '78 by an arab. It was not cofounded by the israeli government.

What you are saying is dispite rendering the origanization illegal, shutting down its major subsidies, and assinating its leaders the Israeli gov finances the HAMAS behind the scene?

Well, we have a right-wing Zionist calling her a terrorist, for nonviolently resisting the occupation, (which is what she was doing.

[

fucking A. Right wing Zionist? Why you throw out the term Zionist for any jew that is in support of establish the israel homeland? I find it ironic you will turn to accussations of bias when you present so much biased left wing material.

For your information the most right wing judaism was agianst Zionism, the establishment of Israel by man and not by the grand yohd-heh-vav-heh. Needless to say i take your accussation of zionism as seriously as those regarding the illuminati.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=zionist

Zi·on·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (z-nzm)
n.
A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

This person has every right to point out Corrie's willingness to support palistinian terrorism via the ISM. WHy does she deserve to be called a zionist (is she even jewish)? Why is being a zionist so wrong? I am so tired of the generalizations.

Why not just call them a kike who supports Israel Clash? Has not "zionist" become just another term to mask bigotted and racial remarks?

Nevermind the fact you don't have a rebuttle.

Too bad there weren't people like her protesting the Jordanian occupation. Back then it wasn't a problem.

The vast majority of houses bulldozed are destroyed not because they have any connection to terrorism, but because they don't have a building permit from the Israeli state. And of course if the land you own is anywhere in the vicinity of an illegal settlement guess what your chances of getting a building permit?). Why am I not surprised?

Here you go rambeling and spouting propaganda AGAIN. I have told you now numerous time they aren't illegal. You haven't provide a single damned argument to support anything fucking thing you have said. You back down continuously. Your argument thus far has been a fucking joke.

You aren't even answering the objection Clashman. The IDF said there were no houses slated to be destroyed. Did you even bother to read that? What you said above is irrelevant. They were there removing brush and destroying Pali tunnels used for transporting terrorist and equipment, as the article stated. If that is so then the the author is correct and the ISM is lying and they know it.

Let's just say I find these statistics HIGHLY suspect.

Oh bullshit! You haven't even the slightest grounds to make these statements. If anything they are as suspect as those you and others spout as propaganda tools for your position.

Circumstances of death are rarely investigated, and both sides are known to outright exaggerate of falsify claims.

And yet you and others find it fine to cite the larger number of pali deaths then israeli. Go figure. It never seems to occur to you it could be directly related to the actions of the palistinians. Did you even bother to read over the link? It provides for the reasoning behind the statistics while explaining procedures.

In case you are still wondering why i doubt western media reporting here are three links:

http://www.memri.org/
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=2
http://honestreporting.com/

For instance, while your site did choose to carefully outline plenty of statistics about the amount of women killed in the Intifada, the fact that far more Palestinian children were killed, (and in greater proportion), than Israeli and went unnoticed is peculiar.

OMG you kill me. One of your sites cited the ICT's information. And the fact remains most of them were boys and could have been directly influencing the situation and not just existing as bystandards. There is a damn good point made that over 70% (i believe the figure was 95%) of Palis killed have been men.

Perhaps you ought to apply the same level of scrutiny to the palistinian.

Here is what the article states about its information gathering

Data Gathering

The greatest care and effort in carrying out this project has been spent in gathering and evaluating enough information on each fatal incident to enable accurate classification of each claimed fatality. Reliable and detailed data on Israeli casualties of the al-Aqsa conflict has been relatively easy to find, as this information is extensively reported in Israeli and foreign newspapers, as well as various official and unofficial websites. Palestinian Arab fatalities present much greater difficulty, for several reasons:

Arab names are often long and complex; in many cases different sources give different casualty names for the same incident, and it is difficult to ascertain whether the different names in fact refer to the same person.

Detailed reports of Palestinian casualties are generally provided by Palestinian organizations and individuals; in some cases these reports are “slanted†or even fraudulent, due to pressures to paint Israel in as negative a light as possible.

The Israel Defense Forces do not keep a precise record (or at least have not so far provided such a record to us) of every time, place, and circumstance where weapons have been used; thus, certain Palestinian reports of fatalities due to Israeli fire cannot be confirmed or refuted. In many cases, we have given the Palestinian account of events the benefit of the doubt, even though the casualties may have resulted from Palestinian actions, rather than Israeli actions. In cases where the cause of death as reported by Palestinian sources is very much open to question, we have assigned a Low confidence Level to that particular casualty.

We have made extensive use of mainstream media outlets, both in Israel and abroad, for the details of al-Aqsa conflict incidents. Information on Palestinian casualties has been gathered from Arabic-language newspapers, cross-correlated with reports from human-rights organizations in Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Unfortunately, these sources generally disagree on many significant details, including the name, age, and circumstances of death of victims. It should be noted that, since no Israeli official body has been keeping records of Israeli actions and their results, the information reported by the Western media has come almost exclusively from Palestinian sources.

I noticed one of your links appears to affiliate itself with Lyndon Larouche:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_LaRouche

Lyndon H. LaRouche Jr. (born September 8, 1922) is an American politician, and a perennial candidate for President of the United States. While he associates himself with the Democratic Party, he has never been that party's nominee for office and he is not accepted within the mainstream or fringes of the party, and is widely characterized in the press as a paranoiac. He is a candidate in the 2004 US Presidential Election. In his early political career LaRouche often used the pseudonym Lyn Marcus.

His political views are extremely controversial and are characterized by his belief in a number of complex conspiracy theories, involving global plots to establish a frightening New World Order, involving such figures as the British Royal Family (especially the Duke of Edinburgh) and George H.W. Bush and other circles of international bankers engaging in what he has characterized as a "synarchist" political movement of the oligarchy. A typical claim is that the U.S. government framed the murder of Swedish prime minister Palme on him, as a way to silence his supposedly intimidating intellect. His opponents on the political conservative right have characterized him as a fascist and a communist, his opponents on the political liberal and socialist left have characterized him as a fascist, Bonapartist, and a right-wing populist.

http://www.larouchepub.com/eirtoc/2002/eirtoc_2902.html

By Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr. A Jan. 24 webcast "will be devoted to an open intellectual and moral challenge to the governments, leading political parties, and prospective heads of state and government of the world's leading nations, especially my own. The focus of that challenge will be the crisis which now confronts each and all nations and their incumbent and prospective heads of state and government."

Btw the http://www.middleeastinfo.org/forum1332 website is definately a good read:

definately some excellant discussion going on at that webpage:
http://www.middleeastinfo.org/forum1424
http://www.middleeastinfo.org/forum1195
http://www.middleeastinfo.org/forum1444

I think i will keep this webpage for further use. Thank you for the ICT and Middleeast info pages.

Here again is the ICT discussing the history of Hamas, read the section under the header "Finacing"

http://www.ict.org.il/inter_ter/orgdet.cfm?orgid=13

If you choose to respond please do not give me one your generic "you are one of those people" responses.

 

[akira888]

In re. pure death counts as sociologically relevant facts:

American minorities murder six times more white men than white men murder us. Are we darkies cracking the whip over the whites in this country? Not really. "Body counts" are contentless figures when denuded from the historical and political social contexts in which they are formed.

I have some mixed feelings on this issue so I generally avoid this - I also tend to get overpassionate on such matters having very similiar experiences in my family to the Palestinians - but the lunatic "jihadist" feelings expressed by many Palis increasingly evoke a counteracting fear.

 

[Legion]

In re. pure death counts as sociologically relevant facts:

American minorities murder six times more white men than white men murder us. Are we darkies cracking the whip over the whites in this country? Not really. "Body counts" are contentless figures when denuded from the historical and political social contexts in which they are formed.

I have some mixed feelings on this issue so I generally avoid this - I also tend to get overpassionate on such matters having very similiar experiences in my family to the Palestinians - but the lunatic "jihadist" feelings expressed by many Palis increasingly evoke a counteracting fear.

Minorities also kill more of eachother then whites do. I thought you might wish to add that.

The importance is the figures are being miss used and not well correlated by western media. as the author of the ICT webpage points out there is a complete onesided nature wrt to reporting these figures. Most if not all of them have been gathered from palistinian sources. If so their accucary becomes suspect immediately as "respectable" arab sources such as Al Jezera would openly lie about the information.

Likewise no one has provided how these sources acquired their information or for that matter a statistical analysis of the causes of death, age, etc. As the author suggested above much of the palestinian deaths come as a direct result of putting civilians in the line of fire and encouraging children to engage in violent activities. The completely weighted gender of the deceased is quite telling.

The palistinian death tolls are nothing more than propaganda tools which can be neither supported nor refuted.

futhermore i can't see what you have in common with the "palistinians" or modern day phillistines (see historic meaning behind the name palistine). They have been living in occupied land for over the last 50 years. The land they call theirs was occupied from Jewish, pagans and Christians through military conquest. Only within the last 30 or some odd years has any of this been a problem. When Jordan ruled over them where were the complaints? Where were the protests? What a complete joke.

 

[akira888]

Legion I agree, raw body counts are meaningless; context is always needed for a complete interpretation. My example with race shows this, the fact that more whites than us die in interracial murders does not, ipso facto, say anything about American race relations that's really meaningful.

As for my comparision with the Palis, it is overdone you're right, but the "theme" if not the details are similiar. I'll think about this a little more.

 

[Legion]

Legion I agree, raw body counts are meaningless; context is always needed for a complete interpretation. My example with race shows this, the fact that more whites than us die in interracial murders does not, ipso facto, say anything about American race relations that's really meaningful.

As for my comparision with the Palis, it is overdone you're right, but the "theme" if not the details are similiar. I'll think about this a little more.

its no different then what happened in Constantinople/Istanbul or Israel. The Arab Muslims attacked, took the land, claimed it as their own. Now they claim it as their ancestral land. Its cacomamy bullshit.

 

[Legion]

From http://www.middleeastinfo.org/forum1424

GUSH ETZION (ETZION BLOC)

Places of Interest for pali atrocities

gush Etzion is a tract of denuded hills only 13 km. north of Hebron. It comprises Kfar Etzion, Migdal Oz and Rosh Zurim (which breed turkeys, produce candles and metal parts, and grow carnations), Moshav Elazar and the rural centre of Alon Shvut with its Har Etzion Yeshiva and apartments for young people who live here but work in Jerusalem and other nearby places. There is also a museum and a Field School in Kfar Etzion. No entrance on Shabbat. The first Jewish settlement here in modern times opened in 1927 when Orthodox Ashkenazi and Yemenite Jews set up an agricultural unit called Migdal Eder. But they disbanded after the slaughter of Jews in Hebron in 1929.

A second attempt at Jewish settlement was made by Shmuel Holtzman, a citrus grower from Rehovot, who started a settlement in 1935 and called it Kfar Etzion. But the crops and properties were destroyed by Arabs in 1937. In 1943 some young members of Hapoel Hamizrahi returned to the area, planted orchards and crops, introduced light industry and built a synagogue. Other kibbutzim were established nearby. In May 1948, after months of siege, during which they suffered casualties, the defenders could no longer withstand the numerically superior forces of the Arab Legion. Their end came a day before Independence was proclaimed in Israel.

The Arabs massacred the 127 defenders, raising the total number of dead at Gush Etzion to 240, and then set about uprooting the trees. The defenders and those who died trying to lift the siege showed incredible valour.

There were the 14 Jews who blew themselves up in their armoured car when they saw no possibility of escape from swarms of Arabs attacking them on their return from Kfar Etzion to Jerusalem. Then there were the famous 35, killed to a man while on their way through the Valley of Elah to lift the siege (see Route No. 6).

Finally there were the 20 women and youngsters entombed in the cellars of a building dynamited during the final battle. Their bodies were recovered and reinterred when Israeli troops recaptured Gush Etzion in 1967.

Those who survived the 1948 massacre founded Kibbutz Nir Etzion near Haifa, Kibbutz Ein Tzurim in the south, Beerot Yitzhak and a new Massuot Yitzhak in the heart of the country. Kibbutz Revadim, just off the Jerusalem-Beer Sheva road, was also in the pre-1948 Etzion Bloc. With the end of the Six Day War many of the survivors, together with the children who had been evacuated from Kfar Etzion, returned to rebuild the Etzion Bloc. A new town named Efrat is located on the eastern side of the Etzion Bloc across the main road, and further east, in the Judaean Desert, are the settlements of Tekoa and Ma'ale Amos.

posted on 3/19/04 at 14:53
For some time, the 800 Jews in Hebron lived in peace with their tens of thousands of Arab neighbors. But on the night of August 23, 1929, the tension simmering within this cauldron of nationalities bubbled over, and for 3 days, Hebron turned into a city of terror and murder. By the time the massacres ended, 67 Jews lay dead and the survivors were relocated to Jerusalem, leaving Hebron barren of Jews for the first time in hundreds of years.

The summer of 1929 was one of unrest in Palestine. Jewish-Arab tensions were spurred on by the agitation of the mufti in Jerusalem. Just one day prior to the start of the Hebron massacre, three Jews and three Arabs were killed in Jerusalem when fighting broke out after a Muslim prayer service on the Temple Mount. Arabs spread false rumors throughout their communities, saying that Jews were carrying out "wholesale killings of Arabs." Meanwhile, Jewish immigrants were arriving in Palestine in increasing numbers, further exacerbating the Jewish-Arab conflict.

Hebron had, until this time, been outwardly peaceful, although tension hid below the surface. The Sephardi Jewish community in Hebron had lived quietly with its Arab neighbors for centuries. The Sephardi Jews (Jews who were originally from Spain, North Africa and Arab countries) spoke Arabic and had a cultural connection to their Arab neighbors. In the mid-1800s, Ashkenazi (native European) Jews started moving to Hebron and, in 1925, the Slobodka Yeshiva, officially the Yeshiva of Hevron, Knesset Yisrael-Slobodka, was opened. Yeshiva students lived separately from the Sephardi community, and from the Arab population. Due to this isolation, the Arabs viewed them with suspicion and hatred, and identified them as Zionist immigrants. Despite the general suspicion, however, one yeshiva student, Dov Cohen, still recalled being on "very good" terms with the Arab neighbors. He remembered yeshiva boys taking long walks late at night on the outskirts of the city, and not feeling afraid, even though only one British policeman guarded the entire city.

On Friday, August 23, 1929, that tranquility was lost. Arab youths started throwing rocks at the yeshiva students. That afternoon, one student, Shmuel Rosenholtz, went to the yeshiva alone. Arab rioters later broke in and killed him, and that was only the beginning.

Friday night, Rabbi Ya’acov Slonim’s son invited any fearful Jews to stay in his house. The rabbi was highly regarded in the community, and he had a gun. Many Jews took him up on this offer, and many Jews were eventually murdered there.

As early as 8:00 a.m. on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, Arabs began to gather en masse. They came in mobs, armed with clubs, knives and axes. While the women and children threw stones, the men ransacked Jewish houses and destroyed Jewish property. With only a single police officer in Hebron, the Arabs entered Jewish courtyards with no opposition.

Rabbi Slonim, who had tried to shelter the Jewish population, was approached by the rioters and offered a deal. If all the Ashkenazi yeshiva students were given over to the Arabs, the rioters would spare the lives of the Sephardi community. Rabbi Slonim refused to turn over the students and was killed on the spot. In the end, 12 Sephardi Jews and 55 Ashkenazi Jews were murdered.

A few Arabs did try to help the Jews. Nineteen Arab families saved dozens, maybe even hundreds of Jews. Zmira Mani wrote about an Arab named Abu Id Zaitoun who brought his brother and son to rescue her and her family. The Arab family protected the Manis with their swords, hid them in a cellar along with other Jews who they had saved, and found a policeman to escort them safely to the police station at Beit Romano.

The police station turned into a shelter for the Jews that morning of August 24. It also became a synagogue as the Orthodox Jews gathered there and said their morning prayers. As they finished praying, they began to hear noises outside the building. Thousands of Arabs descended from Har Hebron, shouting "Kill the Jews!" in Arabic. They even tried to break down the doors of the station.

The Jews were besieged in Beit Romano for three days. Each night, ten men were allowed to leave to attend a funeral in Hebron’s ancient Jewish cemetery for the murdered Jews of the day.

When the massacre finally ended, the surviving Jews were forced to leave their home city and resettled in Jerusalem. Some Jewish families tried to move back to Hebron, but were removed by the British authorities in 1936 at the start of the Arab revolt. In 1948, the War of Independence granted Israel statehood, but further cut the Jews off from Hebron, a city that was captured by King Abdullah's Arab Legion and ultimately annexed to Jordan.

When Jews finally gained control of the city in 1967, a small number of massacre survivors again tried to reclaim their old houses. Then defense minister Moshe Dayan supposedly told the survivors that if they returned, they would be arrested, and that they should be patient while the government worked out a solution to get their houses back. Years later, settlers moved to parts of Hebron without the permission of the government, but for those massacre survivors still seeking their original homes, that solution never came.

condor , if the idf was looking the other way or not ,the massacre was performed by fellow christians not jews , a fact often forgotten.

 

[Maggi]

Sebastian wrote about my post:

“I got about as far as this statement then I realized I was reading garbage.â€￾

The statement he was referring to is my statement that the Israel defence force is a terrorist organisation.

Well:

To regard Palestinian killings of Israelis civilians terrorism but Israelis killing of Palestinian civilians something else is a double standard.

So is calling Hamas and Jihad terrorist movements but call it garbage when someone calls the IDF the same thing.

 

[Maggi]

In some posts I have been called ignorant for saying that Arafat is not a terrorist.

Well:

I have never said that. I have just said that he is not sending the suicide bombers to Israel today. There may very well be some terrorist actions he has controlled in the past. I even thing it is likely that it is the fact.

IST wrote:

“Maggi, you do know he funds those groups, right? Hell, IIRC he helped found either Hamas or Jihad.â€￾

The suicide bombing is not the only thing Hamas and Jihad do. Not all members of Hamas and Jihad are terrorists.

The also have political arms that fight the occupation through politic. They also have groups that fights against the IDF when it attacks Palestine.

One of the most important duties of Arafat as the Palestinian leader is to take care of the defence. How do a leader of a country that has no army take care of defence against constant attacks from one of the worlds strongest army? It seems to me that the only way is to support those who has a way to get some arms and are willing to fight the Israelis every time they attack. By supporting them he is not supporting terrorism, he is conducting his most important duty to strengthen his countries defence as best he can.

How often do I have to repeat myself for you to understand this:

Those who fight the Israelis when they attack Palestine are not conducting terrorism, the are acting in self defence. Those who kill Israeli soldiers by doing so are not terrorists or murders, they are freedom fighters and war heroes.

Why should Arafat not support them?

Since the Palestinians are fighting one of the worlds strongest army, the do not offer not to support freedom groups for the reason the also conduct terrorism. They simply have to use the best gunmen for the defence.

 

[Legion]

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12735

Here is an article you might find interesting maggi.

 

[Legion]

In some posts I have been called ignorant for saying that Arafat is not a terrorist.

In all honest that would fit the bill.

Well:

I have never said that. I have just said that he is not sending the suicide bombers to Israel today. There may very well be some terrorist actions he has controlled in the past. I even thing it is likely that it is the fact.

I would say in order to assume he suddenly gave up terrorism you'd have to disregard quite a substantial amount of evidence.

Furthermore, the sins of the past are not so easily forgotten.

IST wrote:

“Maggi, you do know he funds those groups, right? Hell, IIRC he helped found either Hamas or Jihad.â€￾

The suicide bombing is not the only thing Hamas and Jihad do. Not all members of Hamas and Jihad are terrorists.

Likewise i doubt they are receing charitable donations for children's medicine. Whether or not terrorism is their only purpose is irrelevant. They are fundamentally terrorist organizations who fund their terrorist factions who receive instructions from the PA.

The also have political arms that fight the occupation through politic. They also have groups that fights against the IDF when it attacks Palestine.

You must be kidding me if you think having a political branch redeems them of being murders.

When it attacks palestine only? Bullshit. The vast majority of Israeli deaths are noncombants.

One of the most important duties of Arafat as the Palestinian leader is to take care of the defence. How do a leader of a country that has no army take care of defence against constant attacks from one of the worlds strongest army? It seems to me that the only way is to support those who has a way to get some arms and are willing to fight the Israelis every time they attack. By supporting them he is not supporting terrorism, he is conducting his most important duty to strengthen his countries defence as best he can

First of all he doesn't have a country. Second he isn't supporting freedom fighters he is supporting murder, genocide, and terrorism. His movement dispenses propaganda to youth and manipulates the palistinian media (which Arafat controls). As he does is fill the morque coffers with bodies which come as direct results of his death-rhetoric and jihadist mentalities. He nor his meat bomber hoodlums have any the slightest validation for the murder of innocent people. The more he and his ilk teach children to kill the more of his own people will die. He uses the children of his own people as military tools. He is the most foul and disgusting incarnation of a man.

If you or anyone else wants to refer to them as a nation then one must also provide they are in violation of geneva occords (combatants dressing as civilians, using civilians as body shields, targeting noncombatants, etc etc). In which case we should try Arafat, their supposed leader, for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

How often do I have to repeat myself for you to understand this:

Those who fight the Israelis when they attack Palestine are not conducting terrorism, the are acting in self defence. Those who kill Israeli soldiers by doing so are not terrorists or murders, they are freedom fighters and war heroes.

We won't understand because you are saying is completely wrong. They are not freedom fighters. They are murders who attack innocent women and children. Murders who teach their children to kill and be killed for the sake of some absentee God who obviously doesn't give a rats ass for their supposed cause. They are fakes, frauds, who lie and revise history to attempt to appear to have enthic ties to a land their ancestors raped and pilaged.

As long as they keep attacking the IDF they will keep dying. The IDF and israel will defend themselves.

What saddens me here are the lost lives spent for the cause of a thousand year old misbegotten religion.

Why should Arafat not support them?

I have a better question, why do you condone the murder of innocent people and teaching children to kill?

Since the Palestinians are fighting one of the worlds strongest army, the do not offer not to support freedom groups for the reason the also conduct terrorism. They simply have to use the best gunmen for the defence.

They are nothing like freedom fighters. For if they were they wouldn't enslave themselves with the thralls of Islamic jihadism which takes lives of their children, wives, husbands, parents, and friends. It is truly ironic you call them freedom fighters when all they do is fight to be enslaved to the dogma of a self appointed leader who manipulates them.

 

[nelg]

Fuck it, I would strap an explosive vest to Arafat and his ilk and when the next suicide bomb goes off in Israel I would blow them up

 

[Legion]

Fuck it, I would strap an explosive vest to Arafat and his ilk and when the next suicide bomb goes off in Israel I would blow them up

No, i want to see this man humiliated in the most vile way possible and then rot in some third world jail.

 

[nelg]

While offered in jest, I was merely suggesting a way to curtail the bombings not deliver punishment.

 

[Legion]

While offered in jest, I was merely suggesting a way to curtail the bombings not deliver punishment.

seems to me your strategy has quite an evident and fatal punishment.

 

[nelg]

While offered in jest, I was merely suggesting a way to curtail the bombings not deliver punishment.

seems to me your strategy has quite an evident and fatal punishment.

Only as a consequence when it fails to act as a deterrent.

 

[epicstruggle]

Hmm, last night i saw the 14/13 year old boy taking off the bomb vest. Anyone here of any backlash against the terrorist organizations that convicent a kid to do this.

Should IDF soldiers now treat children differently??

later,
epic