Hamas spiritual leader killed.

They are in fact classified as occupied in 242, not disputed. It also says that the acquisition of territory through war is inadmissible. It is not legal.

How about you show me Israel's legal claim to the land? If it's disputed, then Israel must have some sort of legality on which they base their argument.
 
Clashman said:
They are in fact classified as occupied in 242, not disputed. It also says that the acquisition of territory through war is inadmissible. It is not legal.

How about you show me Israel's legal claim to the land? If it's disputed, then Israel must have some sort of legality on which they base their argument.

No where in the resolution are they called illegaly occupied Clashman. Your argument in favor of them being illegaly occupied has not been supported.

-part of the reason these territories have been called disputed is that one side Jewish/Muslim doesn't clearly own the land. However, since a defensive war was fought the occupation is completely justified.

-Remember historically the Arabs had taken these lands in an aggressive war of genocide. No one protested, no one complained. Hypocrisy. The UN was completely willing to allow the jews to be massacred again.

Here is the actual wording of 242 so not to be confused as well as their claim to the land:

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_un_242.php

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_territories_occupied_or_not.php
 
Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war

Their claim to the land can't pass this statement. Any additional land claimed through war has been illegally expropriated. Furthermore, Israel attacked first. Offensively.
 
Clashman said:
Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war

Their claim to the land can't pass this statement. Any additional land claimed through war has been illegally expropriated.

In a defensive war such is allowed.

Again why don't you think the UNISEC resolutions do not call these territories illegaly occupied?


Here is another resource which addresses media distortions of 242.

http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/242ad.pdf


Other links:

http://israel-arab_conflict.tripod.com/UNresolutions.html

http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/un/242a.html
 
Clashman said:
Why don't they call them disputed?


Why do you refuse to answer questions and defend your arguments rather than regurgitating propaganda and implying i am a racist?
 
Because they clearly call them occupied. They clearly call for withdrawl. They clearly state that the acquisition of territory through war is inadmissable, (they make no distinction between offensive nor defensive. Even if they did, Israel attacked first). It is clear that Israel is the one who had the territory occupied here. In the political climate in which they were written, it is abundantly clear who they were written towards.
 
Clashman said:
Because they clearly call them occupied. They clearly call for withdrawl.

It does not call them to withdrawl from all territories. It calls for withdrawl from some territories emphasizing the need for peace first and formost which hasn't been achieved dispite Israel's compliance.

Read the Resolution:

http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/242ad.pdf

Article regarding demands/requests within the resolution:

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_un_242.php

What was United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 and what does it say?
Following the June 1967 Six-Day War, the situation in the Middle East was discussed by the United Nations General Assembly, which referred the issue to the Security Council. After lengthy discussion, a final draft for a Security Council resolution was presented by the British Ambassador, Lord Caradon, on November 22, 1967. It was adopted on the same day. This resolution, numbered 242, established provisions and principles which, it was hoped, would lead to a solution of the conflict. United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 (UNSCR 242) became the cornerstone of Middle East diplomatic efforts in the coming decades.

Pro-Arab sources often claim that UNSCR 242 requires Israel to withdraw from the West Bank, Gaza, and other areas. This is not true. In summary, here is what UNSCR 242 actually means:

UNSCR 242 calls on all parties to the conflict to negotiate a solution


It anticipates that Israel will withdraw to secure borders (not specified in the resolution) in exchange for peace guarantees from the Arab parties
The Resolution was carefully worded to require that Israel withdraw from "territories" rather than "the territories." This construction, leaving out "the," was intentional, because it was not envisioned that Israel would withdraw from all the territories, thereby returning to the vulnerable pre-war borders. And any withdrawal would be such as to create "secure and recognized boundaries."

How do we know this is what was intended by the resolution? There is a long record of public statements about how the resolution was negotiated and what was intended for it to accomplish.

In an article, referenced among the Sources at the bottom of the page, by Eugene V. Rostow (Distinguished Fellow at the United States Institute of Peace, and former US Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs), the intent is explained in considerable detail. Rostow was one of the US officials involved in drafting 242 so he knows first hand what was and was not intended. He states:

Resolution 242, which as undersecretary of state for political affairs between 1966 and 1969 I helped produce, calls on the parties to make peace and allows Israel to administer the territories it occupied in 1967 until "a just and lasting peace in the Middle East" is achieved.
It was widely recognized that the balancing of the ideas of a territorial return with "secure and recognized boundaries" for Israel would mean that Israel would not be forced to withdraw from 100% of the land captured in the June 1967 war. There is a dispute between the British-American understanding of the wording of the resolution and the French understanding of the wording, but in the United Nations the binding version of any resolution is the version that is submitted to the voting body. In this case, the English version takes precedence over the French version.

Various other officials have commented on the negotiation of UNSCR 242 and how it relates to Israel's position. The British UN Ambassador at the time, Lord Caradon, who introduced the resolution to the Council, has stated that:

It would have been wrong to demand that Israel return to its positions of June 4, 1967, because those positions were undesirable and artificial. After all, they were just the places where the soldiers of each side happened to be on the day the fighting stopped in 1948. They were just armistice lines. That's why we didn't demand that the Israelis return to them.
The United States' UN Ambassador at the time, former Supreme Court Justice Arthur Goldberg, has stated that:

The notable omissions - which were not accidental - in regard to withdrawal are the words "the" or "all" and the "June 5, 1967 lines" ... the resolution speaks of withdrawal from occupied territories without defining the extent of withdrawal. [This would encompass] less than a complete withdrawal of Israeli forces from occupied territory, inasmuch as Israel's prior frontiers had proved to be notably Insecure.
A detailed description by Goldberg of the negotiating process behind UNSCR 242 appears in "U.N. RESOLUTION 242: ORIGIN, MEANING, AND SIGNIFICANCE" in the Sources at the bottom of the page.

Max M. Kampelman, former counselor of the US State Department, said in a letter to The New York Times on April 8, 2002, referring to "territories recaptured from Jordan in 1967, territories that Jordan captured in its war against Israel in 1948-49":

The United States voted in favor of Resolution 242 only after insisting that "all" had no place in it. The United Nations instead referred to the need to arrive at "secure and recognized" boundaries.
No one realistically expects Israel to withdraw before its security is assured. UNSCR 242 emphatically does not put any preconditions on Israel (or the Palestinian Arabs for that matter). Israel is perfectly within its rights to remain in place until there is a negotiated peace agreement acceptable to Israel as well as to the Palestinian Arabs. Israel moved into the West Bank and Gaza Strip areas as part of a defensive war started by the Arab enemies of Israel. Israel does not have to move out of those areas unless and until there is a negotiated peace that offers Israel security guarantees that make it unnecessary to keep control of the areas. Every terrorist incident proves that the time to trust the Palestinian Arabs has not yet arrived.

Despite the very clear record on the purpose and meaning of UNSCR 242, misconceptions continue. For example, on January 23, 2001 the New York Times was forced to print this correction:

An article yesterday about peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians referred incorrectly to United Nations resolutions on the conflict. While Security Council Resolution 242, passed after the 1967 Middle East War, calls for Israel to withdraw its armed forces "from territories occupied in the recent conflict," no resolution calls for Israel to withdraw "to its pre-1967 borders."


They clearly state that the acquisition of territory through war is inadmissable, (they make no distinction between offensive nor defensive. Even if they did, Israel attacked first).

They do not however call it illegal.

Did israel attack first?

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_sixday_result.php

It is clear that Israel is the one who had the territory occupied here. In the political climate in which they were written, it is abundantly clear who they were written towards.

It is not clear these terroritories are illegally occupied. The article never claims that. The fact remains these lands were illegally occupied by Jordan, Egypt and Syria and were retaken.
 
the first piece contains far to many personal invectives to be taken to heart. The recap of the history leaves out quite a bit of nature of the land grabbing from '49 - 67. During those years the "palestinians" (as they like to be called) lived under the rule of Jordan, Egypt and Syria. The issue of a palestinians state issue didn't even cross the minds of the arab nations at the time. The outsting of the palestinian refugees is most certainly a propaganda tool. Israel is an Arab-Jewish state ergo the UNGAR 181 doesn't apply. This was mentioned at length in a rebuttle to the author the first article. On top of this the author or webmaster may be trying to skew the discussion over the law by deleting posts (as was stated by one of the forum goers) and by terminating the discussion.

As Dr Asher pointed out in one of my links the argument as to who owns the west bank is entirely rather a farce. Jordan annexed the land in '50. The annexing was legally recognized by Britain (who formally established the pali mandate) and Pakistan. The argument over recognition by other countries is just an act of playing legal games. Whether or not other countries chose to recognize Jordan's ownership is truly irrelevant. Not a one of those nations did a thing about the illegaly occupied land (the only conclusion wrt to their refusal to recognize jordanian ownership). Had Jordan not instigated war with Israel in '67 they'd still own the land without complaint as they had for nearly 20 years. By Jordanian, British and Pakistani law the West Bank was rightfully owned by Jordan as its people were citizens of Jordan. Howeve to this date Jordan refuses to take in the refugees of its own country.

Here are some good articles regarding annexation:

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_jordan_annex.php

http://www.vibrani.com/occupiedterritories.htm

Review of UNGAR 194 and UNSCR 242

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_un_194.php

Refugees:

Jewish
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_refugees_jews_why.php

Palestinian
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_refugees_arabs_why.php



All in all good articles.
 
Legion said:
the first piece contains far to many personal invectives to be taken to heart. The recap of the history leaves out quite a bit of nature of the land grabbing from '49 - 67. During those years the "palestinians" (as they like to be called) lived under the rule of Jordan, Egypt and Syria. The issue of a palestinians state issue didn't even cross the minds of the arab nations at the time. The outsting of the palestinian refugees is most certainly a propaganda tool. Israel is an Arab-Jewish state ergo the UNGAR 181 doesn't apply. This was mentioned at length in a rebuttle to the author the first article. On top of this the author or webmaster may be trying to skew the discussion over the law by deleting posts (as was stated by one of the forum goers) and by terminating the discussion.

Haha! Nice try. I especially like the "personal invectives" and the completely erroneous speculation about post deletion.

How about something from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

Notice how the Palestine Facts website is listed under Israeli Links. :LOL:
 
Haha! Nice try. I especially like the "personal invectives" and the completely erroneous speculation about post deletion.

Nice try? :LOL:

Some of the actual posters mentioned the deletion. THe matter wrt personal invectives its rather substantial. The author makes a lot of opinionated statements his "interpretation" doesn't qualify him to make (especially with respec to refugees). Also the contributors supplied significant rebuttles the author never responded to.

here was one significant point

-throught the entire course of the discussion both the author and a few of his supports bother addressing the issue of refugees and arab terrorism let alone answering Kopelman's allegations. Infact, it was Kopelman who changed the subject after realizing they weren't going to respond.

Mr. Mourad would have us believe that the Arab death toll was the result of indicriminate Israeli "escalation". Yet a closer examination of his own numbers reveals a different truth. A new comprehensive study by the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism reveals that despite the fact that roughly 3x as many Arabs have died in this intifadah as Israelis, more Israeli women, children and elderly have been murdered (in absolute, not just relative terms). For example, only 61 Arab women have been killed (5%) vs. 160 Israeli women (30%). Israel's actions have not been indiscriminate nor directed at the civilian population. Can the same be said with regard to Arab terrorism?



Its rather obvious the author terminated the dicussion so i am not surprised you didn't mention that :D

How about something from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

Palestine (Latin: Syria Palestina; Hebrew: Palestina (פלשתינה) or Eretz Yisrael (ארץ־ישראל); Arabic: Filasteen (فلسطين)) has both geographical and political meanings.

The jews named their lands after the philasteens? :LOL: Is that so? Hmm, i thought it was Hadrian

Now that was a nice try.

Palestine was a region, not a country. The Jewish people and Christians who lived there would be considered Palestinians.

Lets all be honest. Palistinians are just arabs with a made up name to sound ethnic :devilish:

Notice how the Palestine Facts website is listed under Israeli Links. :LOL:

Oh really? Must be those lying jews at work. Only arabs can relate truths. :LOL:
 
Some of the actual posters mentioned the deletion. THe matter wrt personal invectives its rather substantial. The author makes a lot of opinionated statements his "interpretation" doesn't qualify him to make (especially with respec to refugees). Also the contributors supplied significant rebuttles the author never responded to.
I only found one reference to the word "delet" (which should have netted me both delete and deletion) and it here it is

Some guy said:
Would it be reasonable to assume that if you do not delete this specific post, within the next 48 hours, you have no objections to Mr. Mobarek's kind attempts to show us and others, a or the way/s out of the Israeli-Palestinian Deadlock?

To which the reply was
Anthony D\'Amato said:
This is an open debate and as such as elicited some very valuable information and arguments. I've learned a lot from it. I have no interest in controlling its scope, and leave that up to the good will and good judgment of the participants.

I'm not sure why he locked the thread, but I don't feel anything valuable was being contributed near the end (That's a fundamental principal of forums in general IMO).
Maybe you could have learned something from it too, instead of just dismissing it.

My only point from the Wikiopedia article was that the Palestine Facts website is biased. You can't dismiss my links as biased, yet ignore the obvious fact that yours were too. :)
 
I only found one reference to the word "delet" (which should have netted me both delete and deletion) and it here it is

I recall (Ames i believe) stating some of a particular discussion was removed. At the time i suspected he was refering to this one. I will look for it.

I'm not sure why he locked the thread, but I don't feel anything valuable was being contributed near the end (That's a fundamental principal of forums in general IMO).
Maybe you could have learned something from it too, instead of just dismissing it.

I'd say its rather obvious :LOL:. He stoped responding to Kopelman's questions and statements about 1/2 to 2/3 the way through the article. I think he was fresh out of material to defend himself. RUmi and Mobarek darted out quickly as well. Mobarek never could defend many of his points relating to palestinian death tolls or refugees. Infact Kopelman made some rather valid point wrt to the analysis of palestinian deaths. He was very convincing. He showed that IDF attacks weren't random at all and that the vast number of people killed were men of fighting age. There were a disproportionate number of jewish women and children killed as compared to palestinian.

My only point from the Wikiopedia article was that the Palestine Facts website is biased. You can't dismiss my links as biased, yet ignore the obvious fact that yours were too. :)

Biased? Why? Because its operated by Jews?

I can't dismiss your links as biased? Your first link was refuted internally. Kopelman, Ames and Mike pretty much refuted every point D'Amato and Mobarek made. Let us not forget there were a completely slanted number of muslims in the debate against these individuals. D'Amato claims to be objective yet his analysis lead me to question.

Your second article? I can't refute it nor can i support it. It rarely mentions any actual incidents choosing to hurl figures at the reader instead. So, i am not quite sure what you are wanting me to do with it.
 
Legion is always saying that the West bank is not illegally occupied of the Israeli but was it by the Jordanian. If the Jordanian occupation of the West bank was illegal then the Israelis occupation is also illegal.

There may be that it is not clear who is the right owner of the West bank, but one thing is crystal clear, it is not Israel.

The question is, from whom did the British take this land in 1917? They are in fact the right owners of it, not just the West bank, also the whole of Israel. Neither the British or the UN had any ownership of this land so they had no right to give it to anyone. Therefore there where nothing that justified the establishment of Israel in the first place.
 
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