Halo 4 engine downgrades

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by antwan, Sep 20, 2012.

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  1. RudeCurve

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  2. fearsomepirate

    fearsomepirate Dinosaur Hunter
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    You're overthinking this. In games I don't like, there is no such thing as "tradeoffs," only "downgrades" or "lazy devs" or "bugs" or "design failures." Neither do tradeoffs exist in games I'm a rabid fan of, and just shut up if you're going to point them out. It works like this:

    Game A // Game B
    I like it // I don't like it
    OMG! Best graphics ever! // LOL! Makes my eyes hurt!
     
  3. ultragpu

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    But I did provide proof and quotes from the devs themselves.
    We know KZ2 pushes well over 1 million polys in a typical level, then GG mentioned KZ3 is pushing 3x as much and on top of that 3x the draw distance. So in theory KZ3 could be roughly pushing 4-5 million polys compared to a typical 1.something million in C2.
    http://community.killzone.com/t5/Kil...-2/td-p/618127
    [​IMG]
    http://i45.tinypic.com/2ekhclh.png
    And yeah I can tell what's POM and what's geometry even though KZ3 uses them both very extensively.
     
  4. Reiko

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    I really don't see the problem here. Halo games can't look as good as other exclusives?

    As for more visually pleasing, I give Halo 4 the nod over Gears and Killzone. I need a break from the grittiness. Same way some people feel when preferring Uncharted over Gears.

    And ultragpu... I usually take you seriously on here. But your alter-ego on that other forum takes your Playstation bias to comical levels. So that kinda cancels out some of your arguments.
     
  5. NRP

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    Amen. One of my all time favorite levels. I still can't believe they got all that action in there at one time. Reach really needed a mission like that one.
     
  6. ShadowWolf64

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    KZ2 and KZ3 are great looking games but Halo 4 overall looks a bit better than both in lighting, texture quality etc along with having a superior art direction as well..343i is a tremendously talented developer that shoudn't have their technical skills taken lightly nor downplayed like you are doing.We know you are a huge Playstation fan with a deep biased towards Sony which is fine but to say that 360 exclusive's cant look as good or better than PS3 game's is pretty damn silly.
     
  7. ultragpu

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    How am I downplaying it? And what does this has anything to do being a fan of either consoles? Is it not possible to simply express my opinion on the matter and take it for what it is? And for the record since when have I ever said a 360 game can't look as good as a ps3 game? Geez...
     
  8. antwan

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    I believe you misunderstood eachother:

    He was talking about the first game. It is a valid complaint. It's something I noticed as well, now that they released some HD shots of the HD re-release.

    Also, Halo 3 or 4 is pushing about the same number of polygons as the Killzone 2 or 3 shot you supplied. Look at the Killzone shot and imagine the gun model and other player model not being there. Now imagine the thing left of the right thumb in the original image being an ancient alien building, as tall as a house. That you are viewing the scene from a really zoomed out perspective, the cables on the ground being surface sewer pipes.
    That would be a scene from Halo; it's not that it uses less polygons per frame, it's just that the environments are 5 times larger. They might appear as 5 times less detailed, but the end result is probably the same. The developers of Halo rather have bland, empty environments instead of packed, small spaces. It really benefits the Halo gameplay, which has always had big environments and scale
     
    #68 antwan, Sep 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2012
  9. Ruskie

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    You ever heard of occlusion? KZ3 may have levels with couple million polys, but you are not seeing anywhere near that number when playing the game. Per frame is all that matters, not number of polygons on entire level. Thats like saying that consoles are pushing 10+ mil polygons when you play GTAIV at any given time, nonsense.

    One artist here already had a good post about KZ3 and poly count, which I think you started. Lots of angular objects =/= lots of polygons. He explicitly showed 1st part of Crysis 2 when you get into NY. You are in park, with alot of very detailed trees all casting shadows, buildings in the back and statue in the middle. That statue was fairly detailed (lot of curves) and while it may not look like that to you, if we could get wireframe of the level, you would see it has good amount of detail, its just that you see what you want to see.
     
    #69 Ruskie, Sep 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2012
  10. ultragpu

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    You know what, I don't wanna start a screenshot comparison but if it's allowed then I would be more than happy to show you what I mean. Also like you said, if you don't wanna see it then it's pointless to convince you, as you can't see the detail in kz3.
     
  11. Ruskie

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    There is no point in comparison when you don't understand what you are talking about. Environments filled with lots angular "boxes" =/= high poly count.

    You have already got your answer a year ago from the guy who works as 3D artist for a living, and you continue same discussion? Why?

    To remind you of the topic, here

    http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1532638
     
  12. ultragpu

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    I think I understand more than you do, I make low poly 3d models as a hoppy in my free time. And in what way angular models when reached a large enough quantity can't equal to or greater than a less numberous amount of circular models? They are polygons, you distribute the budget in however way you want for all shapes and sizes. And it,s not like there are that many curved models in halo 4, the landscape is barren and low poly, that's all I'm saying here.
     
  13. playaplayer

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    Are those screen shot pre-rendered or real-time? Because these screens look CGI quality.
     
  14. Betanumerical

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    They are probably in engine, but they are rendered at a higher resolution and then downsampled to look nicer (aka supersampling).
     
  15. Karamazov

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    The old guy pic is from the movie final fantasy spirits within.
     
  16. kagemaru

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    Wow it only took you until page 3 to post a KZ screenshot, I'm proud of you, that's progress! :razz:

    I remember you trying to make a similar point before and were told you were wrong. It's amusing that you actually think KZ3 is pushing so many polys at once, that would be well well above other high end console games, and on a platform that is known to struggle with high geometry.

    This thread is just getting worse and worse and should have been locked down on page 1.

    You can't be surprised when you make silly posts and have people jump on you for it. Before you expressed your opinion as "factual" criticism. Then you comment on me and me defending my favorite console when all I'm doing is pointing out the flaws of your post? Maybe you should think before making such claims.
     
  17. milk

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    I guess, geometry instancing makes a difference.
     
  18. Cyan

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    Watch out when you see these tough boys coming at you! Oh come one ultragpu. Trying to compare KZ with Halo Reach/Halo 4 colour wise is like comparing the Gioconda with the botched Ecce Homo fresco. Not to mention the lore and so on.

    Reiko is right, the grittiness of certain games like KZ and GeoW 1&2 doesn't look that good to me either.
     
    #78 Cyan, Sep 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2012
  19. Acert93

    Acert93 Artist formerly known as Acert93
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    No, no you didn't.

    And I think you need to be called on this as this is a pretty disingenious exchange on your behalf. You first said:
    Post.1: I am pretty certain that you at one point believed this to be the technical pinnacle of 360 game development as well
    Then when called out on this you changed your tune:
    Post.2: I only made that assumption based on your enthusiastic posts in the Halo4 topic
    There is a pretty big difference between the two statements.

    And as a long time poster I see troll bait when I see it and as a long standing member in good standing at B3D I think I deserve a little more respect than putting words in my mouth and then dodging responsibility in a thread that is clearly trolling to begin with. Heck, from he OP, you try to pitch this as a "Halo downgrade thread" and then on god-rays throw those in, not even knowing if they are downgraded but caveat it with "other games do real ones" blah blah blah.

    Looks, let's cut through the BS. You are probably a previously banned poster. I don't think any of us care.

    But what we do care about is honest exchanges. I think your OP was pretty trashy and lacked any substantial comparisons -- where as the side-by-side links to images to compare?

    Furthermore you submarines your own thread when you couldn't come up with a single Technical Upgrade outside of resolution (!)

    So maybe, if you want a quality exchange, you will go back, re-frame the OP with some good side-by-side media and then also, be thoughtful, and note areas where Halo 4 looks better than previous Halos.

    Because, frankly, if you cannot see where the gameplay footage in Halo 4 looks better than Halo 3 and ODST in particular you are not qualified to make the statements you are.

    Which would explain the baiting and lack of substance and dodges when confronted with the silly rhetoric.
     
  20. nightshade

    nightshade Interwebz Hijacker !
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    Doesn't mean much if it's coming off a non technical staff.

    " Though the water is in a near final state, the effects I'm imagining are really a technical mixture of bump mapping, tessellation, and other technical tricks that are apparently well outside the realm of my understanding."
     
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