[H] Benchmarking Future Ed.

Doomtrooper said:
Pete/Russ what is your purpose here, if you have a rebuttal from my post, makes some valid statements, I couldn't care less about your semantics.

Legitimate issues were posted, I'm sick of the defensive attitude around obvious flaws in reviewing, and it doesn't get better by walking on 'egg shells' when a reviewers shows up. o_O
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Absolutely Doom, if you are worried about not being nice rather then finding the truth then what the hell are we doing here?

Pete/Russ: Prove his points wrong before you dismiss his case because he is not being nice. If you could actually do that then you could relegate what he is saying as f@nboyism or what ever, but you absolutely have to prove that he is wrong. The truth is though you can't prove DoomTrooper's points wrong because he is absolutely right in his listed accusations.
 
K.I.L.E.R said:
No, but discussion/debate often does involve a bit of wry sarcasm which can be VERY effective when used right.
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Sarcasm and the like do nothing to aid in an argument. This argument is going nowhere because of the amount of sarcasm and the like.

Intelligent arguers don't need sarcasm to make their point effective.
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But that statement comes dangerously close to saying that sarcasm shouldn't be allowed into the debate, which I disagree with.

I think it is a fair and legitimate way to make a point or show something, and sometimes there is just no substitute for it.

Besides, it adds some flavor and zip to discussion. ;) (I'm NOT talking about being rude, there is a difference. )
 
RussSchultz said:
WaltC, how could you so thoroughly miss my point?

Ridiculing is uneccessary, whether you're ridiculing the person, or the idea. Either target is simply rude and either leads to a flame war, somebody leaving in disgust, somebody thinking twice about sharing their idea in the future or a combination of all three.

You don't have to ridicule to express your disagreement, and I find that mindset to the primary issue I have with these sort of threads. "YAE", where the editorial is essentially ridiculing somebody.
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Now you've made me regret my choice of the word "ridicule" in my original comments...;) It seems to be the only thing you've focused on. I agree wholeheartedly that ridiculing is unnecessary.

However, some ideas are so bad that they deserve ridicule--especially after they've been plastered on the front of your web site as a platform from which to ridicule others. Let's take Kyle's ridiculous assertion when he ridiculed ExtremeTech for its nVidia driver expose', and asserted that although he did not have any proof that ET was jealous over not being allowed to take part in nVidia's rigged nv35 D3 promotional, this "information" had certainly "hit the rumor mill"--or some such nonsense to that effect. It was a transparent and baseless attack on another web site for which the accuser had not a shred of evidence to support his position.

This will hopefully lead you to understand my earlier posts a bit better...that what goes around, comes around. People who don't ridicule others from behind the cover of their editorial web pages generally don't receive ridicule in return. That's what you seem fundamentally unable to understand here (which is puzzling.) Your description of "ridicule" is always one sided--you see nothing wrong or rude or insensitive with the kind of ridicule that masquerades as an editorial on someone's website--but you only see it in a forum where posts are made *in response* to those "editorial" opinions.

I wonder...do you send these people emails chastising them for "chasing away" their readership with the kinds of ridicule they engage in? I would hope so, as that would make you consistent...;)
 
K.I.L.E.R said:
Sarcasm and the like do nothing to aid in an argument. This argument is going nowhere because of the amount of sarcasm and the like.

Intelligent arguers don't need sarcasm to make their point effective.

The only thing sarcasm does is attract smart asses and utterly stupid comments from both sides of the fence.
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Talk to Mark Twain about the use of satire and sarcasm, especially from a humorous slant, to make a point. The man is famous for his gift of being able to do that...;)

Where I draw the line is at profanity, vulgarity, and threats. Immaturity like "ownz jooo" and so forth is, well, neither satire nor sarcasm..it's just immaturity and in very small quantities can be easily ignored.

The point to me has always been that people who throw stones at others from behind the facade of web sites should be thick skinned and should expect a few stones in return. If they are not prepared for this they should not initiate such deviant behavior in the first place. People who print opinions which are personally insulting to others on the editorial pages of public web sites are not prima donnas and shouldn't be treated as such--most especially when they take the gloves off insulting fellow webmasters in an entirely unprovoked fashion (as was Kyle's attack on ET over ET's nVidia driver expose'. In the ET 3DMk article not one mention of Kyle, or of [H], was made.)

OTOH, if the stones you throw are rational stones, and you can prove your points in such a way that they can be proofed by others elsewhere in an independent fashion--then it can be argued that you haven't thrown any "stones" at all--just facts. When facts emerge from subterfuge, everybody benefits (except possibly those parties responsible for whatever subterfuge has been uncovered.)
 
Well guys, try not to compare yourselves with others. Everytime one of you use sarcasm it tends to be rude and starts a pissing match between several people. This happens in just about every thread that involves a debate.

None of you are Mark Twain. :)
 
K.I.L.E.R said:
Well guys, try not to compare yourselves with others. Everytime one of you use sarcasm it tends to be rude and starts a pissing match between several people. This happens in just about every thread that involves a debate.

None of you are Mark Twain. :)
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*chuckle* That's for sure...;) I just wanted to make the point that satire and sarcasm, when appropriately employed, are legitimate debating tactics because often they can illustrate a point better than any other method. What's "rude," btw? It often depends more on the concept of the reader than it does on the intent of the author and different readers will draw different connotations and inferences from the same set of comments--ie, what bothers you might not bother me, and the reverse. Even if I think someone's comments are rude I probably will not say so because I can't divine his intent. So I'll either ignore such comments, or else address myself to what I consider to be the meat of the post as opposed to the wrapper. But that's just me, and I can see how some people might be put off by the form of a comment as opposed to its substance.
 
Sabastian said:
Absolutely Doom, if you are worried about not being nice rather then finding the truth then what the hell are we doing here?
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The two are not exclusive. Again, I wasn't referring to DT's posts, and it seems to me Russ wasn't, either (apart from that quote it seems he misinterpreted).

If I'm putting the wrong words in Russ' mouth, I apologize--I was only going with the flow of misinterpretation. ;)
 
[conspiracy theory] I find it interesting that in Lars's article "Benchmarking: Games" all the pages are addressed as nv_cheating-xx but the headline is written to be ambiguous to who it is mainly addressing.[/conspiracy theory]
 
nelg said:
[conspiracy theory] I find it interesting that in Lars's article "Benchmarking: Games" all the pages are addressed as nv_cheating-xx but the headline is written to be ambiguous to who it is mainly addressing.[/conspiracy theory]
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People name their pages in funny ways. :)
 
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