[H] Benchmarking Future Ed.

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

Seriously, though. I respect and somewhat agree with your views on Kyle, Lars, et al. However, I don't think that Beyond3d is the right place to sit around and bitch about them. I think YOUR board is the right place for you to soapbox from, or their board, but not here.
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http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6117

I don't see DT's posts as being OT under these rules, or his attitude as being anything more than business-like and factual in this matter. If you think they are, then it's the moderator's job to deal with it however they see fit.

Of course, I'm just somebody who likes polite discourse about technology, not pages and pages of snarky gossip.

I don't think it's "snarky gossip". There's a lot of industry wide stuff going on as a direct result of companies using websites as extensions of their PR departments. It is interesting and worth knowing when you are reading obviously flawed reviews and benchmarks, or downright untruths. Maybe you need to stick to the technology forums instead of the hazy and underhand world of "3D Graphics Companies and Industry"?

 

[K.I.L.E.R]

You all make good points here and there.

In the end everyone has his/her own opinion, something that all of you should learn to respect.

I respect Kyle's opinion (which are facts according to him) even though I disagree with 99.99% of the things he says.

 

[Sabastian]

I respect Kyle's opinion (which are facts according to him) even though I disagree with 99.99% of the things he says.

 

[John Reynolds]

By the way, did you hear what John did? How scandelous! I've never seen such behavior...

??

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Seriously, though. I respect and somewhat agree with your views on Kyle, Lars, et al. However, I don't think that Beyond3d is the right place to sit around and bitch about them. I think YOUR board is the right place for you to soapbox from, or their board, but not here.

Well Russ,

Did you perhchance READ the "about this forum" sticky?

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6117

A few minutes ago, I renamed this forum from "3D Graphics Companies" to "3D Graphics Companies and Industry". This forum will no longer be limited to talking about 3D companies but the entire 3D industry as a whole, including your opinions about other websites.

(my emphasis added)

So perhaps if you don't like people stating their views on the industry, including other webites and the articles / authors at those websites,, then perhaps it is YOU who should consider staying away from this particular forum.

Of course, I'm just somebody who likes polite discourse about technology, not pages and pages of snarky gossip.

If you like discussions about technology, and not discussions about opinions on IHVs, other 3D websites, and the industry....then stick to the tech forum. You wouldn't have to read all this bitching, and we wouldn't have to read your bitching. Everyone's happy, right?

There's no rule that says you must read every forum here at B3D.

Am I "chasing you away?" Dunno. That depends on whether or not you perfer to accept the stated purpose of this forum, or reject it. It's your choice.

I just don't think we need another "virtual moderator" here, Russ.

By the way, did you hear what John did? How scandelous! I've never seen such behavior...

And what is that supposed to mean? And how is that accusation in any way similar to the ones that you bitch about...the ones that have several stated reasons and examples about why they have the opinion that they have?

 

[K.I.L.E.R]

If John is scandalous, then what am I?

What did John do to deserve such a title?

 

[nelg]

check out my new sig.
_________________
We are talking Graphic Cards here, not Graph Cards.

Dogging non-english speakers for mispellings and/or misuse of the language is pure class.

Mmmm, classy. *drool*

Seriously, I think that was an attack on judging video cards solely based on benchmark numbers, without taking into account IQ.

I agree with Russ' dislike of the "Oh, snap, you just got schooled, boyee!" chorus in some threads. Lars seems to be fairly reasonable when he posts here, so, though I don't agree with some of his articles, I try to keep the debate civilized.

YEP.

 

[WaltC]

And that is the problem. What purpose is there in ridiculing people, beyond attempting to shame them into not expressing their viewpoints?

You claim to be all about free expression of ideas, but the oppresiveness of the gang tactics here (whether or not you realise it) is counter productive to that free expression of ideas, unless, apparently, they coincide with your own.

Russ, how could you so thoroughly miss my point?

The ridiculing comes as the result of the ideas expressed and has nothing to do with the personalities involved--which are irrelevant. Not all ideas deserve "ridicule" of course. This was merely an example I used to illustrate the point you missed.

 

[martrox]

John? Scandalous? No.......say it isn't so......... Myself, on the other hand...........

 

[digitalwanderer]

.02 from a board Ogre....

I wanted to post up an "pwned!" so bad it hurt my teeth after DT cut loose on Lars, but I didn't because this isn't that kind of board!

Sorry to be the heavy, but I feel Russ actually gots some good points. There is a difference between DoomTroopers bluntly honest rebutal to Lars and the "owned" comment that followed it up. DT had an honest and topical point to make, the "owned" comment was just a fan to the flames of fanboism.

We have GOT to watch the fanboy stuff if we're going to participate in discussions on these boards. We must adapt to this boards standards rather than try and lower the board to our standards.

Please, I mean this not as a flame but as an actual informative post. If you're going to post at B3D at least have something to say, don't just be posting to get rah-rah. (It ain't easy for me either, but I'm learning... )

 

[WaltC]

It´s not that easy to chase me away I´m always interrested in peoples opinions... even if they are prejudiced like Dooms. That´s the reason why I visit this forum as well as others. I made my point. If he still wants to see it in another way, well, that´s his choice.

Lars

Well, I think, Lars, he "sees it another way" based on quotes of things you've said in other articles. So wouldn't you say he's done a bit more that merely proffer an opinion? I'd say so. Based on those quotes it would appear he has a point, too.

Yes, you "made your point" here, which seems to have prompted Doom to look up quotes as to other "points" you've made at other times and places. I think what he's asking for is a clarification on whether or not you still consider the quotes he's reprinted to be valid expressions of your current opinion.

Saying, "I've changed my mind since I wrote those," is not so terrible a thing to say, is it?...

That's my biggest complaint--and it certainly isn't lodged at you specifically--that people write things on web pages as a part of reviews or opinion pieces which they later refuse to acknowledge or discuss or explain or expound upon when asked about them. It's an attitude difficult to understand, frankly.

 

[Unit01]

It looks like Borsti just got owned.......I guess there are still some people that will blidly follow nVIdia no matter where they go...........

Can someone explain to me what that post had to do with the topic and how it in any way provided anything good to the topic.

And Digitalwanderer. I sometimes see you post posts like those YeuEmMaiMai on other boards(rarely here). And i would like to ask not only you but others who do it as well. What do you want to say with the post? You just want to spam to be rude(and bump some post counts) or you really think you contribute to the thread by making comments like that?
I hope the thread can continue on topic now. This post isn't some kind of attack or anything. Just want some answers to some things.

 

[Doomtrooper]

It´s not that easy to chase me away I´m always interrested in peoples opinions... even if they are prejudiced like Dooms. That´s the reason why I visit this forum as well as others. I made my point. If he still wants to see it in another way, well, that´s his choice.

Lars

No one is chasing you away, I could have made my post alot more aggressive as I have many more examples. I don't want to see you go, but I certainly hope you see some very bad flaws in your reviewing style including the 'technical' part of your reviews.

You say my opinion is prejudiced, which is so far out to left field, my opinion is ensuring reviewers try to be as accurate as possible and not just look at the FPS meter in every benchmark.
Critique is something alot of people need to take, and my examples which I knew you would avoid including the 8500 anisotropic debate is just another example of flaws in your methodology.

My main issue is Anandtech, [H} and Tomshardware all got played by Nvidia they didn't even tell you about the other slider options which included trilinear AF in the application setting. Lucky we have Beyond3D where the staff have the intelligence to investigate all the modes, and get down to a 'fair apples to apples' comparison.
Ever since that 5800 U review from Tomshardware, my respect for your site has gone down ALOT, just from sloppy reviewing with no regard to IQ.
I couldn't see one mention of IQ in your 5800 Ultra review, only graphs galore.

All benchmarks in that review in question were done using a mode worse than a 8500's AF, something you wouldn't even use last year , now you see where the hypodcrisy comes from in my posts.

5800 in the old 'balanced' setting

 

[K.I.L.E.R]

All benchmarks in that review in question were done using a mode worse than a 8500's AF, something you wouldn't even use last year , now you see where the hypodcrisy comes from in my posts.

Doomtrooper, makes a god point Lars. People will always look for inconsistencies in your past and present comments and reviews, if you are inconsistent it will make you look biased.

If you had said that the R200's AF was great and the FX's balanced AF looks great, I'm sure Doomtrooper would be on someone elses back. Others will think you have poor IQ tastes.

 

[Pete]

Pete/Russ what is your purpose here, if you have a rebuttal from my post, makes some valid statements, I couldn't care less about your semantics.

Legitimate issues were posted, I'm sick of the defensive attitude around obvious flaws in reviewing, and it doesn't get better by walking on 'egg shells' when a reviewers shows up.

I wasn't referring to your post, Doom. I also refrained from criticizing your posts because I don't really know Lars that well, so I can't be sure he's not really a nVidia shill posing as a disinterested third party. I doubt it, but my doubt doesn't invalidate your opinion of him, and I believe your posts were pretty fair rebuttals.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Off-topic, but someone asked me.

Digitalwanderer. I sometimes see you post posts like those YeuEmMaiMai on other boards(rarely here). And i would like to ask not only you but others who do it as well. What do you want to say with the post? You just want to spam to be rude(and bump some post counts) or you really think you contribute to the thread by making comments like that?

I gave up worrying about post counts a long time ago, so it ain't ever for that reason. Sometimes it's intended to be rude to the one who is "pwned" to show support for the "pwnee", sometimes it's just a bit of social background noise as an acclaim to the one who's wit owned whoever.

Some boards are more social than others, for some reason I really want to use Rage3D's OT lounge as an example since it's pretty much the opposite end of the signal-to-noise levels as here. Over there it's perfectly normal & socially acceptable to post up an "pwned" comment or some such just to express your personal take on the post. Not for post count, not to impress anyone or dis anyone; but rather to just be sociable and add to the group experience.

There are a lot of social boards out there, and I am NOT saying that this is an unsocial board; it's just there really isn't as much place for that sort of behavoir here and it isn't welcome so I try and avoid it now.

People here prefer it if you don't post unless you have something to add or actually comment on, which I can respect and like about here since it gives B3D it's own unique personality & charm.

Different strokes for different folks, everybody marches to their own drummer, and that's why crayolas come in a box of 64.

It's just that it IS ok for someone to post that sometimes and on some boards, it just isn't really appropriate here IMHO.

 

[RussSchultz]

Russ, how could you so thoroughly miss my point?

The ridiculing comes as the result of the ideas expressed and has nothing to do with the personalities involved--which are irrelevant. Not all ideas deserve "ridicule" of course. This was merely an example I used to illustrate the point you missed.

WaltC, how could you so thoroughly miss my point?

Ridiculing is uneccessary, whether you're ridiculing the person, or the idea. Either target is simply rude and either leads to a flame war, somebody leaving in disgust, somebody thinking twice about sharing their idea in the future or a combination of all three.

You don't have to ridicule to express your disagreement, and I find that mindset to the primary issue I have with these sort of threads. "YAE", where the editorial is essentially ridiculing somebody.

 

[digitalwanderer]

You don't have to ridicule to express your disagreement.

No, but discussion/debate often does involve a bit of wry sarcasm which can be VERY effective when used right.

I think it just comes down to either of you could be right, depending on the situation/location.....and I think it's a close toss-up on DT's post to Lars since he DID make many valid points and I didn't feel he was too over-the-top on the sarcasm. (I really did feel that DoomTrooper presented his argument rather well and tastefully, one of the big reasons I never posted a "pwned" comment...his post was too classy for that. 8) )

 

[K.I.L.E.R]

No, but discussion/debate often does involve a bit of wry sarcasm which can be VERY effective when used right.

Sarcasm and the like do nothing to aid in an argument. This argument is going nowhere because of the amount of sarcasm and the like.

Intelligent arguers don't need sarcasm to make their point effective.

The only thing sarcasm does is attract smart asses and utterly stupid comments from both sides of the fence.

 

[nelg]

ATi Radeon 9700 PRO -
Pretender To The Throne

Lars did you write that? I know, in the newspaper bis. columnist do not write headlines (for the most part).