When I say better writing, I'm not necessarily talking about overall plot writing. And I dont really mind it being satire, I just wish isn't wasn't so.....well, as DSoup puts it - low brow.
Grand Theft Auto VI [GTA 6]: What can we expect?
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cheapchips
Veteran
Grander Theft Automobile 6?
arandomguy
Veteran
It would be interesting to see how they approach this. On one hand I'd guess the average age of the existing fan base is likely much higher than back with GTA V, much less earlier in the series. Yet let's face it the series always was targeted at let's just the younger crowd (you maybe just didn't think so, since you were also younger back then, was edge when you were younger can seem immature/crass when you're older), so they may stick with wanting to onboard newer fans.
I think it is very hard to find a different tone to GTA other than nihilistic satire.
The game naturally has its players commit the most anti-social, and misanthropic acts imaginable. From mass shootings against civilians, plane highjackings, terrorist atacks, vandalism, mowing down policemen with a tank, etc.
Making every character in that world be an unlikable corrupted jerk is the only way to make those things somewhat acceptable. It makes the player not be the only psychopath, but rather the only psychopath who is at least honest about it.
What it does have room for, is for doing a better job at it. GTAIV and V had some pretty great moments, IMO, but a lot of other parts are too heavy-handed. If they just exercise more subtlety and avoid moralizing (I'm doubtful) they'll be fine.
There is no way to try and make GTA be super sophisticated or ethically conscious and still remain GTA. To try and please the kotaku-like idiots that made a fuss about representation of whatever is to comit suicide. Those criticisms were made by people who absolutely did not "get" the world, and were lazer pointed on their pet issues while completely ignoring that every single other character was portraied as as much of a piece of shit as everyone else.
The game naturally has its players commit the most anti-social, and misanthropic acts imaginable. From mass shootings against civilians, plane highjackings, terrorist atacks, vandalism, mowing down policemen with a tank, etc.
Making every character in that world be an unlikable corrupted jerk is the only way to make those things somewhat acceptable. It makes the player not be the only psychopath, but rather the only psychopath who is at least honest about it.
What it does have room for, is for doing a better job at it. GTAIV and V had some pretty great moments, IMO, but a lot of other parts are too heavy-handed. If they just exercise more subtlety and avoid moralizing (I'm doubtful) they'll be fine.
There is no way to try and make GTA be super sophisticated or ethically conscious and still remain GTA. To try and please the kotaku-like idiots that made a fuss about representation of whatever is to comit suicide. Those criticisms were made by people who absolutely did not "get" the world, and were lazer pointed on their pet issues while completely ignoring that every single other character was portraied as as much of a piece of shit as everyone else.
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Silent_Buddha
Legend
That's the thing, the culture they are aping and satiring is itself lowbrow. If you don't keep it lowbrow it loses the connection to the subject matter that makes it interesting in the first place. Having partied with the sort of people that are often featured in GTA when I was in LA (Compton, East LA, Burbank, etc. being Asian allowed me to get invited to both low-brow, Compton and East LA, and high-brow, Burbank, parties that otherwise would be difficult).
That dialog in GTA is part of the draw. Looking at the title's sales in Europe, it's almost like they are endlessly fascinated by the low-brow aspects of American Society (criminals, gangsters, etc.). Part of that is likely an aspect of how these elements of American society are free to ignore order, the government, social responsibility and the need to talk a certain way in certain classes of society. The very "low-brow" (or "in the Hood") style of dialog is exactly part of the draw.
Hell, I had to relearn how to communicate to the general public after moving out of that area of LA to where I currently live. The English language is actually valued where I now live.
I do however, miss the freedom to say whatever you wanted to while in the less savory parts of LA, however. People are far too freaking uptight about words nowadays in "polite" society.Regards,
SB
I'm not saying the context of the commentary is low brow, I'm saying the actual writing is low brow. It's lowest common denominator stuff that doesn't feel like much real thought is put behind it, it's just bang you over the head with the most over-the-top stereotype they can think of in any given scenario.That's the thing, the culture they are aping and satiring is itself lowbrow. If you don't keep it lowbrow it loses the connection to the subject matter that makes it interesting in the first place. Having partied with the sort of people that are often featured in GTA when I was in LA (Compton, East LA, Burbank, etc. being Asian allowed me to get invited to both low-brow, Compton and East LA, and high-brow, Burbank, parties that otherwise would be difficult).
That dialog in GTA is part of the draw. Looking at the title's sales in Europe, it's almost like they are endlessly fascinated by the low-brow aspects of American Society (criminals, gangsters, etc.). Part of that is likely an aspect of how these elements of American society are free to ignore order, the government, social responsibility and the need to talk a certain way in certain classes of society. The very "low-brow" (or "in the Hood") style of dialog is exactly part of the draw.
Hell, I had to relearn how to communicate to the general public after moving out of that area of LA to where I currently live. The English language is actually valued where I now live.
Regards,
SB
Something like South Park was so successful not because it just parodied all kinds of things, but because Trey and Matt managed to do so in clever ways, to where it was actually funny and not just 'hur dur parody'. Parody isn't funny just cuz it's parody.
And as for the 'people are far too uptight' thing, I'm betting you're barking up the wrong tree here. Cuz again, being offensive isn't funny just cuz it's offensive or anything. You can be offensive and get away with it when you're clever enough about it. I'm a pretty 'progressive' person and I've been to plenty of comedy shows where people were offensive and it was still hilarious. If you ignore the reactionaries on Twitter, I think you'll find most people are not just 'more sensitive' about words, they just are less tolerant of people who think being edgy and offensive on its own are funny. Which I dont think is unreasonable.
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Johnny Awesome
Veteran
Nah. People are just uptight.
I dont really have any nice way of addressing this, but you're definitely not right. And probably more influenced by dumb, reactionary, and ultimately unrepresenative nonsense on Twitter than you realize. Twitter is basically panacea for outrage addicts. And if you still really disagree, I'd say it doesn't say much about you.
I agree with that. The problem is many actual writers don't know it. A lot of films, tv programas and games try to please this niche twitter/reddit oppression addicts under twonwrong assumptions.
1. That their loud on-line hissy-fits have an apreciable effect on the commercial success of a product.
2. That people who are constantly looking for things to call "problematic" will not do it anyway regardless of how much you bend over to try to please them.
I dont really see it. Some are trying to simply be better about very valid problems and dont always pull it off, but that's the nature of progress. The whole idea of 'Go woke go broke' is a colossal failure of a mantra, if that's what you're talking about, since it's been proven wrong countless times. Not that it's even that relevant here. Cuz as I said, it's entirely possible to make fun of sensitive topics in a way that is acceptable and funny. But this requires being clever and having some tact.
Could you give some more examples of offensive comedy you consider funny and that which you think is just offensive?
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"Go woke go broke" is wishful thinking on the part of the "anti-woke-brigade," who themselves are just as paranoid and redutionistic as the wokesters themselves. I dont believe its true. But I do believe that not pleasing progressive ideoligues and getting bad mouthed by a dozen obscure blogs and twitter users because one can kill prostitutes in a game wont make a dent in sales either. Nobody at rockstar should really lose any sleep over stuff like that.
What are some examples of media that went too far to please the vocal twitter group? As well as examples of media that are progressive but done well?
D
Deleted member 11852
Guest
This isn't what I mean by low brow, and criminals and gangers are not low brow subject matter. Some the most critically-acclaimed entertainments has focussed on criminality; The Godfather, Goodfellas, The Sopranos. You can definitely have interesting, witty and funny commentary in a game than the most popular lager in the GTA universe being called, Pißwasser. It feels like much of this is aimed at teens. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
When you focus on the writing of the main characters, none of it is base and it feels a little out of place like because the main characters are more grounded. I'd add that GTA III, Vice City, San Andrea and GTA IV were nowhere near as base as GTA V.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Those are all examples of a higher order of criminals than what GTA focuses on. The criminal element that GTA focuses on are the same elements that the organized crime rings (Italian Mafia) in the movies that you mentioned frown upon and openly think of as basically lower life forms. The mooks as they are often referred to by the American Italian Mafia and in the past by American Italians in general.
Those movies are also a highly romanticized version of the Italian mafia with some peeks into how they operation and how brutal they can be but with more of a focus on romanticizing it's culture and behavior. Now part of that is purposefully done, the brutality when it happens is highlighted more and more impactful when contrasted with other almost fairytale bits of the movies.
The hood gangsters that are usually featured in GTA gangs lack most of the self imposed restrictions under which the Italian Mafia generally operated under in the US. They also generally lack the cultural background and links to the "old country". The older Italian mob families were formed from immigrants from Italy trying to protect other italians from racial prosecution at the time when Italian immigrants were considered undesirable, lazy, they take jobs from hard working Americans, corrupt good upstanding American women, etc. similar to the Irish before them. Thus their attempts at a form of internally consistent Honor and respect for hard working citizens (usually in Italian immigrant neighborhoods) which allowed them to feel some moral superiority when shaking down business owners and gamblers as the former could be viewed as taking advantage of new immigrants (and likely often did) and the latter could be bad influences and abusers of their famillies. Often overlooked by these same mobsters were their own familial abuses.
Ooof this is getting long, but it's important in distinguishing the source material from which something like The Godfather, Goodfellas and The Sopranos draw from.
Hood gangsters lets call them, are a different breed. They are completely out of place in a movie such as those that you mentioned other than stereotypical bad guy bait. About the only similarity between them and the Italian mafia is that they often espouse family values. However, they do it differently. Whereas most Italian mobsters would put the entire family and family tree on a pedestal, hood gangsters often only have their mother and possibly their sisters and maybe brothers on that same level of respect and honor. The father figure is often missing in their lives and often reviled. It's a dynamic that when growing up gives a different perspective on who and what in the world is important. There's no father figure that might attempt to show them how a "proper" man of the family should act. Instead they learn these things from other men in the community, often members of the local gangsters although the lucky ones will instead latch onto successful businessmen or clergy in their community.
Yes, Italian mobsters in their formative years are also exposed to the gangs in their area, but it doesn't represent all of the male influence on their lives as they often have a father figure (good or bad) within their home. While this is less true now than in the past, the movies that you mention generally focus on those mobsters that grew up in stable, if sometimes troubled, families.
Contrast this to some movies that don't focus on highly organized and structured crime. Skinheads, The Warriors, Romper Stomper, Assault on Precinct 13 or some more appropriately themed movies like Colors, South Central, Boyz n the Hood, Menace to Society. Yes still romanticized/fantasized to some extent, but closer to the "lower" level of criminality that the GTA games focus on and more closely resembling the gang members that I would party with down in Compton and East LA back in the 1980s ... the same type of element that GTA generally focuses on.
Something like the Mafia line of games focuses more on the higher level of criminality that The Godfather, Goodfellas and The Sopranos focus on. There's a few Italian guys around where I live that like to act like that ... or maybe they aren't acting and they are from that background but got out somehow. Dunno, don't care, they treat me with respect, I treat them with respect.
Ooof, this is way too long, but maybe people just don't really understand that while GTA is attempting to satirize elements of American society, they do so by presenting some elements as close to the source as they can ... and that includes dialog and how characters in the game speak. The type of humor presented, etc. It doesn't matter if someone considers it low-brow, offensive, whatever, they are getting it as close to the "hood" as they can. You don't sanitize these things (beyond a level required to get it published), alter how they talk, change what they talk about without losing the connection with what you are presenting. Although I will say they do self-censor a lot in the games as there is conspicuously absent a lot of racially charged dialog (both light hearted [jokingly said] and not [derogatorily said]) that you'll often hear in the "hood".
Regards,
SB
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D
Deleted member 11852
Guest
I think you've completely missed my point and importantly you overlooked this comment
I found the GTA V's main story, the characters and their dialogue pretty good. It is the backdrop of a siriticalised American society that I found puerile. From an artistically narrative perspective it felt like playing characters from The Last of US in the game world of Super Mario. Grounded characters in an almost cartoonishly stupid world. And not stupid though lack of effort, because it took a lot of effort to create and record all that diaglogue and what do you get? Oh haha.. the lager sounds like "piss".
Fixing? The correct word to use would be "changing".
I like GTA V's driving, flying and gun play controls. The only thing is the way the character controls, which is sometimes very clumsy and stiff. I use keyboard and mouse.
I never liked the way GTA IV's cars handled. Far too exaggerated. I never played the game for more than 30 minutes for that reason.
I like GTA V's driving, flying and gun play controls. The only thing is the way the character controls, which is sometimes very clumsy and stiff. I use keyboard and mouse.
I never liked the way GTA IV's cars handled. Far too exaggerated. I never played the game for more than 30 minutes for that reason.
I mean to me it controls very poorly and I would want them to fix that poor control. Perhaps changing to something that imo doesn't suck could also work.
I have tried both keyboard/mouse and controller.
Johnny Awesome
Veteran
I would like GTA controls to "change" into something good. 
