Global warming

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If you had bothered to look at the link chalnoth posted you would have realized just how little area had just how mild a cooling compared to the rest of northern america.

That's why it's weather and not climate. You have to look at much larger areas for much longer.

The picture in on the main page is not very accurate, here's a better one, just look at the eastern seaboard:
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/map/images/fnl/500z_01a_30frames.fnl.anim.html

If you go by population and not area, the cold weather affected more people. Who cares if it was warmer in super cold uninhabitable land?

You are also completely wrong, one month doesn't mean jack shit when AGW advocates talk about decades and centuries.
 
If you go by population and not area, the cold weather affected more people. Who cares if it was warmer in super cold uninhabitable land?
Ah. You persist in your deliberate efforts to be a complete ignoramus about anything you deem too inconvenient for you to care about.

Most people with a brain would not have that as a personal goal in life, but whatever.

You are also completely wrong, one month doesn't mean jack shit when AGW advocates talk about decades and centuries.
He didn't claim it meant jack, he just said it was nutty. Btw, 21C is a lot more than 10-20F.
 
If you go by population and not area, the cold weather affected more people. Who cares if it was warmer in super cold uninhabitable land?
Because warmth in super cold areas leads to .... melting which increases dark water on surface which absorbs more heat which leads to .... more warming. :rolleyes:

You are also completely wrong,
How and in what way?

one month doesn't mean jack shit when AGW advocates talk about decades and centuries.
True.
 
I'm sure it's as simple as that with no complex modeling involved, and nothing else contributes to either warming or cooling.
OK. Point being we should disregards this.
Who cares if it was warmer in super cold uninhabitable land?

Also, do you still think that a change of a Celsius or two in global average doesn't matter?


In one month data being proof of AGW.
In what universe did I claim that? For me, the strongest evidence of AGW is the absorption spectrum of CO2, the reflection spectrum of earth and the change in CO2 concentration over the last 150 years. Not what happened anywhere in one month.
 
In what universe did I claim that? For me, the strongest evidence of AGW is the absorption spectrum of CO2, the reflection spectrum of earth and the change in CO2 concentration over the last 150 years. Not what happened anywhere in one month.
Precisely. That, and the cooling of the stratosphere for me.

But I love how corduroygt is only willing to notice the distinction between weather and climate when we're talking about absurdly-warm weather.
 
A battery car would simply be inoperative on a day like today, it would simply run out of juice trying to warm up the cabin in such weather, and that's beside how batteries fail in cold temperatures to begin with. Battery is a dead end technology, since it can only help cars, there are still airplanes and helicopters to worry about, and they'll never be able to run on batteries unless there are improvements in the order of a magnitude on battery energy density and recharge time.
Not true.

For starters, our current best batteries, Li-Ion and Li-Po, degradate significantly when heated. They might not get up to their peak performance when very cold, but it would increase their lifespan significantly.

Also, heating the inside of the car is peanuts, compared to the power required for driving. Sure, you might want ~1kW at first to heat it up fast, but after that the requirement would drop off to ~100 watts. While the drive train would require up to 100kW for a full-out acceleration, down to ~2-5kW for cruising.

And why are you comparing very-high-performance turbines (many MegaWatts) in airplanes and helicopters with those? They're not like any current engines in any cars that I know of in the first place. Perhaps old or small and cheap combustion engine aircraft, but you should compare them to golf carts, as far as cars go.

Then again, powering the AC while driving with the windows open would definitely be noticeable.



Oh, and look here.
 
@corduroyg:

You were going great for a while, but for the last pages you're simply ranting, with no scientific backup to your posts. Think about it.

Otherwise, you'll be renamed _xxx_2 by popular vote. And with good reason.
 
Going great, when?

His entire argument has always been he shouldn't have to care about anything, including the environment, other people or whatever just because he claims to be an american, and doesn't want to.
 
Going great, when?

His entire argument has always been he shouldn't have to care about anything, including the environment, other people or whatever just because he claims to be an american, and doesn't want to.
His story was internally coherent, and scientifically at least as sound as the general AGW one. He took the time to research things, with a much greater effect and better explained than I see from most people around here.

That you don't agree with his point of view or conclusions doesn't make them invalid. I don't agree with part of them or the basic intent behind it for the most part, but I value that coherent viewpoint and well-explained personal research a lot. Think for yourself! And I did agree with most of his conclusions.

But that broke down about four pages ago.
 
Not true.

For starters, our current best batteries, Li-Ion and Li-Po, degradate significantly when heated. They might not get up to their peak performance when very cold, but it would increase their lifespan significantly.

Also, heating the inside of the car is peanuts, compared to the power required for driving. Sure, you might want ~1kW at first to heat it up fast, but after that the requirement would drop off to ~100 watts. While the drive train would require up to 100kW for a full-out acceleration, down to ~2-5kW for cruising.
I think your numbers are off a little bit. Heating the inside of the car is not peanuts at highway speeds. It'd take a kW or to fight against the heat loss in the cold. Also, highway cruising requires around 25-30 hp, which is about 15-20 kW.

And why are you comparing very-high-performance turbines (many MegaWatts) in airplanes and helicopters with those?
Because that's the level of technology we have now.

In order to travel at 0.8+ mach, we need oil. If you run out of oil and everyone has to travel slowly in rickety electric planes, that's regression, not progress. Similarly, if you cannot refuel your car in 5 minutes, that's regression, not progress. What will truck drivers do, when they travel 1000 miles a day?

I just think we'll be able to make biofuel for $3 gallon before we have batteries with comparable energy density to gasoiline and 5 minute recharge. There's also areas where electric won't work well such as planes and helicopters. I just think it's a better alternative to just grow our own fuel instead of going for stored electric propulsion. Everything on tracks or with a power line can be electric, but I just don't have much faith in further advancements in battery tech. I think hybrids are great, but I draw the line at Prius Plug-in Hybrid as the maximum amount of battery capacity that should be installed in a car.

I'd also like you to point out when I became inconsistent.
 
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It'd take a kW or to fight against the heat loss in the cold.
Even taking your numbers verbatim, you could easily extract that much from waste heat from the battery pack, electronics and motor. Use the AC unit as cooler for these components, put the heat into the cabin of the car.

Also, highway cruising requires around 25-30 hp, which is about 15-20 kW.
That'd depend on the aerodynamics of the vehicle...

In order to travel at 0.8+ mach, we need oil. If you run out of oil and everyone has to travel slowly in rickety electric planes, that's regression, not progress.
Why does it have to be air travel? We build high speed tracks running electrified trains on dedicated lines that reach 500+ KPH and takes hundreds of passengers at a time. Cheaper, cleaner, quieter, safer, more efficient. You can depart and arrive straight from a city center, you don't need to screw around with annoying procedures like checking in your luggage, standing in line for 20 minutes passing through ID and security checkpoints (take off your shoes, belt, empty out all the shit you got stashed in your pockets, pass through the naked-millimeter-scan X-ray cancer death machine and so on), deal with constant delays and so on.

That's progress compared to air travel. The trip's most likely going to be faster overall as well unless you're going on an intercontinental trip, and that only happens a few times in most peoples' lives, if that much. We can keep a smaller fleet of conventional jet aircraft for such purposes, at least until we get our act together and drill vacuum tunnels beneath the atlantic and pacific oceans... Underground supersonic maglev trains, now, that'd be something! :D

There's also areas where electric won't work well such as planes and helicopters.
I doubt electric air vehicles are ever going to be feasible. It's just too power-demanding, and batteries too heavy compared to the charge they store.
 
Even taking your numbers verbatim, you could easily extract that much from waste heat from the battery pack, electronics and motor. Use the AC unit as cooler for these components, put the heat into the cabin of the car.
Good point, still doesn't solve the recharge issues on EV's though. The only thing I can think of is modular battery pack replacements at stations. You buy the EV, no batteries included. Then you sign for one (with a $10k deposit, earning interest) and that gives you the right to get a fully charged pack from a station where they can change it out in 10 minutes using robots (packs are heavy). You only pay for the charge and maybe some fee, say about $10 total for a "fillup". Battery pack would be stored under the passenger cabin, since most people like a higher and more commanding view of the road, and putting heavy stuff low is good for handling and safety. Sports EV's can have it under the hood and trunk, accessed from below. When you return the batteries without getting a new pack (most likely when you sell your car), you get your deposit back. It won't be a single pack either, they just need to standardize the size, and each car has the capacity for a number of them.

Why does it have to be air travel? We build high speed tracks running electrified trains on dedicated lines that reach 500+ KPH and takes hundreds of passengers at a time.
Cheaper, cleaner, quieter, safer, more efficient.
Cheaper only if you don't include the cost of building the track. Also, 500 kph isn't that fast compared to a plane. Any plane ride that's more than 1.5 hours would still be faster on the plane, and forget about LA to NY, it'd take more than 10 hours by a maglev train.
If the trains replace planes, you can bet the security would also be the same as airport security, it doesn't matter if you're in the air or ground, when a bomb blows up when you're travelling at 500+ kph, you're most likely dead.


That's progress compared to air travel. The trip's most likely going to be faster overall as well unless you're going on an intercontinental trip, and that only happens a few times in most peoples' lives, if that much. We can keep a smaller fleet of conventional jet aircraft for such purposes, at least until we get our act together and drill vacuum tunnels beneath the atlantic and pacific oceans... Underground supersonic maglev trains, now, that'd be something! :D
You never visit other places? I'm not a frequent flier but I've traveled at least 30 times over oceans. However, those vacuum tunnels sound promising, reminds me of Starship troopers. I'm sure they're unfeasibly expensive though.
 
Good point, still doesn't solve the recharge issues on EV's though.
God(s), do you have to be in such a damn hurry? So if recharging takes half an hour or whatever, will it absolutely kill you? Start earlier in the day if you need to make a long-distance trip.

Shit, if you consider it took about six months to travel from the abbey of Uppsala down to Rome (ONE way!) back in medieval days and then hear you whine that battery recharges absolutely can't take more than 5 minutes...you gotta admit we people have become so fucking spoiled. Sheesh.

Instant gratification is why we're busy wrecking this planet. We've become too lazy and too complacent. So recharging an electric vehicle might never take 5 minutes at most, unless we invent commercial-grade superconducting coil capacitors or something like that. There's no law of nature stating that recharging MUST be 5 mins tops for society to continue to function. That people as impatient as you demand it is not a compelling reason... :devilish:

The only thing I can think of is modular battery pack replacements at stations.
Yes, many have thought of that idea, but I can imagine it'd be difficult to make it work considering the large variety of different size and shape vehicles out there.

Cheaper only if you don't include the cost of building the track.
Those tracks could stay in use for a century or more. Build cost is a one-time expense, it's not a compelling reason to not build them.

Also, 500 kph isn't that fast compared to a plane.
It's certainly fast enough to compete, most assuredly so if you also cut out the time it takes to get to an airport and the faffing-around neccessary once you get there before you're able to board the aircraft. Also, don't get hung up on any particular speed. 500kph wouldn't neccessarily be the upper limit.

Any plane ride that's more than 1.5 hours would still be faster on the plane
No it would not, and even if it would, once we add proper environment tax on the airfare you wouldn't want to pay the excess cost unless you were in a real damn hurry, thus leading to regional air travel dying out and getting replaced by sufficiently fast rail travel instead, saving the environment shitloads in reduced emissions of all kinds of poisonous crap, and lowering noise pollution substantially as well of course.

and forget about LA to NY, it'd take more than 10 hours by a maglev train.
Why would I need to "forget" about it just because it according to you would take 10 hours? How long wouldn't it take by car, something like three days? TEN HOURS, THAT'S RIDICULOUS! OOOHH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...!!!!

Lul. You're so silly.

A plane takes like, five, just in flight time. Add airport travel, checking in, delays, baggage reclaiming once you arrive, getting from the airport back to the city... An hour plus total extra at least, with no upper limit if there's bad weather or whatever (think: terrorist threat scare.)

If the trains replace planes, you can bet the security would also be the same as airport security
No it wouldn't, because you can't steer a train into a tall building.

when a bomb blows up when you're travelling at 500+ kph, you're most likely dead.
Airport security doesn't exist (only) to protect the passengers in the train, and the biggest threat against a train isn't bringing explosives onboard; trains are much sturdier than aircraft, so it would take a lot more to kill it. The big threat against trains would be mining the rail itself, and against that there's no security checkpoints on earth that will protect you.

You never visit other places? I'm not a frequent flier but I've traveled at least 30 times over oceans.
Occasionally I do, not as often as when I was younger, but it happens. Hardly anyone makes frequent cross-oceanic flights though, not even if we only count us here in the west. Many people never do it even once in their entire lives.

However, those vacuum tunnels sound promising, reminds me of Starship troopers. I'm sure they're unfeasibly expensive though.
You should read some Peter Hamilton... His Night's Dawn trilogy in particular.

Anyway, cost is immaterial. Like I said, these things would be used for a long time, you don't have to make 'em pay for themselves anytime soon. Or even ever; the benefits to society would outweigh any expenditure regardless, it'd be like developing functional fusion reactors. Expensive, but it would be worth it regardless the price.

Anyway, things only "cost" because we decided they have to "cost". If we instead decide they DON'T have to "cost", then they won't. Problem solved. :)

I'm sure this simple concept's going to make your mind go into core meltdown mode though. "Oh noes! What will we DO if things don't cost anything!!!!", you'll say.

"Have much, much better lives for everyone", I simply reply.
 
Just want I want to be in when a bomb explodes an under water train tunnel in the middle of the alantic

http://www.movieposter.com/posters/archive/main/3/A70-1590

Thank God for stalone


God(s), do you have to be in such a damn hurry? So if recharging takes half an hour or whatever, will it absolutely kill you? Start earlier in the day if you need to make a long-distance trip.

Shit, if you consider it took about six months to travel from the abbey of Uppsala down to Rome (ONE way!) back in medieval days and then hear you whine that battery recharges absolutely can't take more than 5 minutes...you gotta admit we people have become so fucking spoiled. Sheesh.

Instant gratification is why we're busy wrecking this planet. We've become too lazy and too complacent. So recharging an electric vehicle might never take 5 minutes at most, unless we invent commercial-grade superconducting coil capacitors or something like that. There's no law of nature stating that recharging MUST be 5 mins tops for society to continue to function. That people as impatient as you demand it is not a compelling reason...

It really depends on how often you need to recharge. Do i need to recharge every 60-70 miles ? If so then I will be able to travel for just 1 hour before needing to recharge my vehical for 30 minutes.


I still don't understand what you have against a hybrid like the volt. why can't i use the ev range when i'm able to and switch to gas /ethonal when i need too ? Is it going to kill the planet ? Isn't it better than me being on gas all the time ?


Not to mention where we are going to get all the electricty to charge these devices. What happens whe nyou start plugging in tens of thousands of electric vehicals . Is our grid going to be able to handle it ?


here is some good news

Led lights can add 6 miles to an ev's range

http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/24/led-headlights-can-add-up-to-six-miles-of-electric-vehicle-range/
 
God(s), do you have to be in such a damn hurry? So if recharging takes half an hour or whatever, will it absolutely kill you? Start earlier in the day if you need to make a long-distance trip.
No, but it's regression. It's called lower standards compared to the past. Electric cars have to have 5 minute recharge or they're a step backward. "will it absolutely kill you?" is a meaningless question, it also won't kill me to not wash my clothes often, or not eat meat, or turn my thermostat a couple degrees lower, or not drive a V8 if I wanted to (I don't have a V8 muscle car anymore) in the name of eco friendliness. All of that would just contribute to not being able to live my life to the fullest and give up some of the comforts I'm used to. I'm not going to give them up to help people in regions that are "threatened" by AGW, I don't give a shit. My parents never had to worry about AGW, and I'll die before I voluntarily submit to worse conditions than them. Only way I'll accept lower energy use is if the cost of energy is too high, not with any artificial bullshit legislation.

Shit, if you consider it took about six months to travel from the abbey of Uppsala down to Rome (ONE way!) back in medieval days and then hear you whine that battery recharges absolutely can't take more than 5 minutes...you gotta admit we people have become so fucking spoiled. Sheesh.

Instant gratification is why we're busy wrecking this planet. We've become too lazy and too complacent. So recharging an electric vehicle might never take 5 minutes at most, unless we invent commercial-grade superconducting coil capacitors or something like that. There's no law of nature stating that recharging MUST be 5 mins tops for society to continue to function. That people as impatient as you demand it is not a compelling reason... :devilish:
Yes, we're a long way from medieval times. When the previous generation did not have to compromise for their trips, why should I? Progress is moving forwards, not backwards. The only thing that will make me compromise is free market energy prices becoming too high. Not by artificial taxation or anything of the sort, but naturally due to supply/demand. My instant gratification is more important than some people that I don't know living in some corner of the world having to move because they're getting flooded. I simply don't care, because why should I? They're not me, my friends, or relatives, or countrymen. I probably wouldn't be able to communicate with them due to language barrier.


Those tracks could stay in use for a century or more. Build cost is a one-time expense, it's not a compelling reason to not build them.

Anyway, cost is immaterial. Like I said, these things would be used for a long time, you don't have to make 'em pay for themselves anytime soon. Or even ever; the benefits to society would outweigh any expenditure regardless, it'd be like developing functional fusion reactors. Expensive, but it would be worth it regardless the price.

Anyway, things only "cost" because we decided they have to "cost". If we instead decide they DON'T have to "cost", then they won't. Problem solved. :)
Cute...remember socialism only works until you run out of other people's money. Cost is ALWAYS a factor, if not the ONLY factor.

No it would not, and even if it would, once we add proper environment tax on the airfare you wouldn't want to pay the excess cost unless you were in a real damn hurry, thus leading to regional air travel dying out and getting replaced by sufficiently fast rail travel instead, saving the environment shitloads in reduced emissions of all kinds of poisonous crap, and lowering noise pollution substantially as well of course.
Airfare is taxed enough (almost 100% in some flights!!) so don't even attempt to add an AGW tax to it. Might encounter some supersonic flying objects yourself if you try.
 
Cute...remember socialism only works until you run out of other people's money. Cost is ALWAYS a factor, if not the ONLY factor.

Are you suggesting maintaining highways isn't socialism? Train travel would actually probably save a lot of money long term (very long term), maintaining highways is a massive expense. Getting past the huge upfront cost of building a rail system is certainly a problem.
 
Are you suggesting maintaining highways isn't socialism? Train travel would actually probably save a lot of money long term (very long term), maintaining highways is a massive expense. Getting past the huge upfront cost of building a rail system is certainly a problem.

Comparing train pricing vs. cost of gasoline driving a car, it's obvious that it costs a lot more to maintain and run trains than to just maintain highways and let people maintain their own cars.
 
Are you suggesting maintaining highways isn't socialism? Train travel would actually probably save a lot of money long term (very long term), maintaining highways is a massive expense. Getting past the huge upfront cost of building a rail system is certainly a problem.

So are you sugesting the end of highways and roads and only train traveling ? If not then the cost of all these train lines will just be on top of the road costs we already have.
 
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