Global warming

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I suspect algae-based fuel costs a lot right now because nobody's put it into large scale production yet. Since you can grow the algae off of raw sewage, untreated salty seawater and things like that there's no reason it should cost a lot; feeding those suckers is basically free. Beyond the construction costs of the facility that is, and that hardly needs space age materials or anything remotely exotic.
Well, the same goes for battery technology, and solar cells. Really true. And fusion is a lot further off the beaten track.

Batteries could be much better and cheaper. Like, Li-Po. And it isn't even your basic chicken-and-egg problem, because that only holds if you produce all the parts yourself (no subcontracting and/or outsourcing, where they all have to learn all those things as well).

Rather, it's a question about ROI: do you spend all those millions to find out if you can do better, or simply reap the generous rewards as they are?

Solar cells have to compete with a product that has an extremely high mark-up value: semiconductors. They both need the same base material (monolithic and grown silicon wafers). They won't become cheap as long as the cost of the wafers is only a very small part of the sales price of a semiconductor.

As for fusion, there are simply only a few large-scale experiments, which all took the (Russian) tokamak design as their blueprint. There is no large-scale experimenting with fusors, for example: a fusion reactor you can build yourself. It's no cold fusion. It definitely works. It's a proven design. And only one of many (although one of the better known ones).
 
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Balls. I just lost a long post due to a browser crash! :mad:

To summarise my dearly departed post:

1. Billions upon billions of dollars are being invested into battery technology with real advances in electrode and battery designs being made year on year. Enormous amounts of research into this stuff is also going on in Universities across the globe and, if you look around, you'll be surprised how many business spin-offs from academic research are already in existence. Rather less investment is occuring into algal biofuels so better batteries will be here long before we see algae-oline on sale at a service station.
Yes, but they're made into making minute changes to improve proven technologies. They're not invested into radical new designs. Even Li-Po (the newish, "best" battery technology) only develops at a snails pace.

Because, if you have a factory producing the stuff, you're interested in improving productivity (and as long as your employees like the change), but not in building a radically new one just to see if that would work.

And even if it does, you're in it for the long run, as you have to teach all your subcontractors how to do it first.

2. Within about 5 years (definitely nothing like the 20+ years you imagine), I expect Li-ion batteries to be greatly improved compared to current technology. Capacity around twice what it is now, cheaper prices, better cycling, faster charging (to a point). Li-ion batteries don't contain much in the way of rare materials (Lithium isn't going to run out despite what some alarmists might have you believe). A range of 200 miles should be more than enough for vast majority of people. In the longer term, plenty of research is also being made into attempting to create rechargeable Li-Air and Li-S batteries which have the potential to increase range enormously.
Li-Ion is already a dead end, technologically: the successor is Li-Po. But that isn't all that interesting for companies selling Li-Ion batteries at the moment. Li-Po batteries have different specs, voltages, etc, and require different electronics to make them charge and run. So they're not a plugin replacement.

Then again, I think that there is a significant research from the Li-Po producers into producing cells that are a drop-in replacement for Li-Ion.

3. For the few who require longer ranges or even if you wish to go on a longer journey, lightweight genset engines will be able to burn fossil fuels or, when properly developed, algal biofuels/biobutanol/cellulosic ethanol etc. etc. For example, Lotus have already developed a 1.2 litre 35kW genset which weighs just 56 kilograms. You could easily design a space in the boot (or trunk if you're a Yank ;)) into which one of these could be installed as necessary. Other slightly more outlandish ideas I've seen include a genset trailer!
Well, burning it efficiently isn't the problem. It requiring more energy to produce than is released when doing so is, though. :)

4. Assuming that a 5 minute recharge is necessary because people won't be willing to change their current routine of filling up once or twice a week is just nonsensical. When (not if) electric cars become enormously cheaper to run than ones run using fossil fuels, people will be quite happy to go to the minor trouble of plugging their cars in when they get home each night. For what it is worth, battery chemistry which allows faster charging (20 minutes or so) is already here but, unfortunately, only at a relatively low energy density compared to other Li-ion types.

I anticipate that, within the next 5 years, one of the two cars in my household will be electric only. Not a hybrid which is just a stopgap.
I agree. Electric is the way to go. But just about everyone I talk with about this ask me if they can go to the fuel station and fill up their tank, or are out of luck and stranded if they run out of juice.
 
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THIS is what I reject.

A "theory" that claims everything that happens as proof of its existence.
Er, what? Now you're just making shit up. The link between AGW and severe weather is well-understood and well-evidenced: a warmer Earth means more evaporation, which means more precipitation. But it doesn't have much of an impact on the overall number of storms, so what happens is that individual storms become stronger.

I want some proof. And, as corduroygt nicely illustrated, just massaging and overwriting all historic data to "fit the current model" every time that is considered "a necessary action to better fit our goal" isn't doing it for me.
It is completely dishonest to claim you "want proof" when you won't bother to read into it yourself. Start with the IPCC reports if you want some proof. It won't be easy. Climate science isn't trivial. But the evidence is very much available for all who have the desire.

But don't start claiming you "want proof" when all you really want to do is be comforted that your existing world view isn't upturned by pesky reality.
 
How much range do we really need in cars ?

I'm going to asume we need at least 540miles to the charge to replace gas completely. Until then a system like in the volt is the only way to go.

My current car will get 350 to 400miles fill up and a fill up takes less than 5 minutes. Battery cards seem to go less than 100miles ( i hear the leaf is 70miles) and require a 4-7 hour charge. So that wont happen for alot of people.
 
My current car will get 350 to 400miles fill up and a fill up takes less than 5 minutes. Battery cards seem to go less than 100miles ( i hear the leaf is 70miles) and require a 4-7 hour charge. So that wont happen for alot of people.
The vast majority of people don't drive more than a short distance each day. It is only the occasional road trip that requires more than 50 miles or so of range. So if, for instance, you're a two-car family, it would make very good sense to have one car be a full electric, and the other be a plug-in hybrid that can also be used for long trips. They're both decent for routine driving (with the full electric being a little better), while the plug-in hybrid can also be used for the occasional long-distance trip.
 
How much range do we really need in cars ?

I'm going to asume we need at least 540miles to the charge to replace gas completely. Until then a system like in the volt is the only way to go.

My current car will get 350 to 400miles fill up and a fill up takes less than 5 minutes. Battery cards seem to go less than 100miles ( i hear the leaf is 70miles) and require a 4-7 hour charge. So that wont happen for alot of people.

Why 540? That seems totally random. I mean I agree PHEVs are better than all electric for now, but I know I drive >1000 miles in one day. So 540 would not do it either. And honestly it will be inefficient to get a huge range electric b/c you carry the heavy battery all the time. The leaf is about right IMO. Anything more seems pointless.
 
THIS is what I reject.

A "theory" that claims everything that happens as proof of its existence.
It doesn't work that way. If you keep track record, of say hurricane intensity and frequency, you can clearly see a upward trend. If it were not there, you - and I - would probably be doubtful of AGW. But, here's the deal, increased hurricane intensity and frequency is at best a thought provoking question, it is NOT a proof of AGW. But it can be said with great confidence that more warming will lead to more extreme weather, anthropogenic or not.

I like the OpenSource model for science, where you publish all your data, methods and programs used. So it can be reviewed, improved upon and falsified, if needed.
Me too. AFAIK, the data is typically open sourced, the codes aren't. And that is reasonable, you are free to make your own models.

Which isn't happening with AGW.
Proof?
 
It doesn't work that way. If you keep track record, of say hurricane intensity and frequency, you can clearly see a upward trend. If it were not there, you - and I - would probably be doubtful of AGW. But, here's the deal, increased hurricane intensity and frequency is at best a thought provoking question, it is NOT a proof of AGW. But it can be said with great confidence that more warming will lead to more extreme weather, anthropogenic or not.
Well, intensity has a definite upward trend. Frequency isn't so certain. But anyway.

Me too. AFAIK, the data is typically open sourced, the codes aren't. And that is reasonable, you are free to make your own models.
A lot of it is open source. Here's a nice compilation of data, including GCM model codes:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/data-sources/
 
Why 540? That seems totally random. I mean I agree PHEVs are better than all electric for now, but I know I drive >1000 miles in one day. So 540 would not do it either. And honestly it will be inefficient to get a huge range electric b/c you carry the heavy battery all the time. The leaf is about right IMO. Anything more seems pointless.

60mph is the average I used at 9 hours a day of traveling. I'm thinking summer vacations and what not.

I figured out 60mph by looking at my notes for my yearly drive from NJ to Florida . I can normaly do more than 9 hours of traveling. Leaving at 8am in Paramus NJ and stoping at exit 2 in Georgia at around 1am.

I don't think the culture here would work for cars that get less than a 100miles , it may work for daily commutes but unles these cars are dirt cheap it wont replace gas engines completely becuase people use them more often.

Even now i can use more than 70miles a day just to go to work and back and then visting my gf .
 
How do laptops exist then? I mean most work days are longer than a typical laptop will hold a charge for. I guess people generally don't bother with portable computers in general because of the battery issue.
 
I don't think the culture here would work for cars that get less than a 100miles , it may work for daily commutes but unles these cars are dirt cheap it wont replace gas engines completely becuase people use them more often.
...Because telling people to change their "culture" due to it being unsustainable would be too onerous for them and simply too much to ask, right? :rolleyes:
 
How do laptops exist then? I mean most work days are longer than a typical laptop will hold a charge for. I guess people generally don't bother with portable computers in general because of the battery issue.

Huh? People plug their laptops in, since power outlets are very common indoors, and laptops don't have to be in motion to be used, unlike cars. Also, a laptop running out of battery isn't dangerous like a car running out of battery in the middle of the highway.
 
...Because telling people to change their "culture" due to it being unsustainable would be too onerous for them and simply too much to ask, right? :rolleyes:
When evidence on the unsustainability is shaky, at least to the average person who doesn't read scientific papers, it is indeed too much to ask. Most people in this country don't give a shit about AGW. The "culture" will only change if it's due to forces of economics, i.e. oil getting naturally expensive. No alarmist will convince people, and no politician will dare to tax CO2 here.

I used to live in Europe, and I came here to a country where everything is cheaper and more plentiful, and there is more space for everyone. I'm not going back.
 
Huh? People plug their laptops in, since power outlets are very common indoors, and laptops don't have to be in motion to be used, unlike cars. Also, a laptop running out of battery isn't dangerous like a car running out of battery in the middle of the highway.

People can also run out of fuel in the middle of a highway I don't really see the difference. So long as theres enough battery life for 2-3 days of normal use, it'll be enough to meet the needs of most people since it is uncommon for people to drive >50 miles in any particular day unless they have an obscene commute, which isn't all that common.
 
The problem is that people do travel longer distances on occasion. While you may not often drive more than 50 miles in a given day, for many people there are quite a few days in a year that they would. Owning a separate vehicle is an additional expense, and an additional impact on the environment.

They need some fast charge stations, or quick battery exchanges, or extended battery packs for rent before electric vehicles are a realistic option as a replacement for many people.
 
The problem is that people do travel longer distances on occasion. While you may not often drive more than 50 miles in a given day, for many people there are quite a few days in a year that they would. Owning a separate vehicle is an additional expense, and an additional impact on the environment.

They need some fast charge stations, or quick battery exchanges, or extended battery packs for rent before electric vehicles are a realistic option as a replacement for many people.

It just needs to be good enough for enough people to gain a hold over a sizeable niche. Successive generations can improve a product so long as the fundamentals are sound.
 
It was 15F here today, about 20-30 below the seasonal average thanks to global warming. Nature and the ecosystem that has no problems handling daily/weekly variations of 30F below or above the average, but heavens forbid...they'll all be destroyed if that average goes up by 1F over 100 years because unwarranted alarmism gets media coverage and thus gets grants. Of course people living in mild climates shouting their mouths off about AGW would not know about these conditions and how unsuitable battery cars are to parts of the world where it gets cold.

A battery car would simply be inoperative on a day like today, it would simply run out of juice trying to warm up the cabin in such weather, and that's beside how batteries fail in cold temperatures to begin with. Battery is a dead end technology, since it can only help cars, there are still airplanes and helicopters to worry about, and they'll never be able to run on batteries unless there are improvements in the order of a magnitude on battery energy density and recharge time.
 
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It really sucks that most people live in parts of the world which don't get too hot or too cold for present battery technology. I mean they aren't going to release cars like that unless 100% of the worlds population can use them without issue...
 
It was 15F here today, about 20-30 below the seasonal average thanks to global warming. Nature and the ecosystem that has no problems handling daily/weekly variations of 30F below or above the average, but heavens forbid...they'll all be destroyed if that average goes up by 1F over 100 years because unwarranted alarmism gets media coverage and thus gets grants. Of course people living in mild climates shouting their mouths off about AGW would not know about these conditions and how unsuitable battery cars are to parts of the world where it gets cold.

Holy fucking pile of moronic drivel batman.

A battery car would simply be inoperative on a day like today, it would simply run out of juice trying to warm up the cabin in such weather, and that's beside how batteries fail in cold temperatures to begin with. Battery is a dead end technology, since it can only help cars, there are still airplanes and helicopters to worry about, and they'll never be able to run on batteries unless there are improvements in the order of a magnitude on battery energy density and recharge time.

Batteries work in colder temperatures than you're experiencing. However ,they do become less efficient. And not working with other areas doesn't make it a dead end.
 
It was 15F here today, about 20-30 below the seasonal average thanks to global warming. Nature and the ecosystem that has no problems handling daily/weekly variations of 30F below or above the average, but heavens forbid...they'll all be destroyed if that average goes up by 1F over 100 years because unwarranted alarmism gets media coverage and thus gets grants. Of course people living in mild climates shouting their mouths off about AGW would not know about these conditions and how unsuitable battery cars are to parts of the world where it gets cold.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/22/science/earth/22kenya.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=general

Even small changes in long term averages matter. Why? Because they are long term and affect EVERY thing around them.
 
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