*Game Development Issues*

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If I recall correctly PS2 took a lot longer for devs to get the hang of.

A full year after the PS2's launch it was still mostly crap from a technical perspective with no dev really showing a good understanding of the HW.
With respect to the initial PS2 situation versus PS3, remember that the PS2 launched with the worst of development kits and services. The old tale is that at first the manual was in Japanese only. PS2's improvement from bad to good had such a low starting point! PS3 shouldn't have the same difficulties.

I think one of the major problems for PS3 was XB360 being out and devs working on it, with a 'conventional' mindset. As we've heard a good few times now, if you start with PS3 and port from there, things are better all round. Thus it wasn't just PS3 being difficult, but not playing well with the others. If only PS3 had launched, development would have centred on it and hopefully avoided some of the difficulties.
 
Sure the PS3 may never eclispe what the 360 can (& probably will) demonstrate (in real world implementation) with regards to IQ, however it certainly can fail/equal/surpass it on a case by case basis..

That's a fair way to put it. For example, Little Big Planet may very well not be possible on 360 depending on how complex the physics simulation is.

However, going back to his blog, his main frustration seems to be at the difficulty in getting the PS3 to perform some basics. You have to understand, game development today has become incredibly high risk. Costs are stupidly high, deadlines are tighter than ever, and head count is limited. Many studios are literally just one game failure away from going under. Anything that ads risk to the current situation without a huge potential return is simply not welcome anymore.

The 360, thus far, has been stupidly easy to dev for. So easy in fact that one coder and one artist can make a 360 game from start to finish by themselves. 360 has been welcomed by many because it has taken some of the risk out of game development at a time when it was very much needed. It's helped our ability to meat a deadline with a quality product. You can get a good game out on 360 in a 10-18 month timeline, even if you are starting from scratch. You get great tools, great support. Microsoft kisses developer ass because they understand the value of game programmers to their bottom line.

Now enter the PS3. It's going back to the old days of screw you developers, we don't care if it's a pain to work with. Yup, it's complicated. Yup, theres little support. Yup, it will take you years to get it to do what 360 can do out of the box. Too bad, that's how it is, now get to work. In the above scenario where do you think coders will flock to? If all this extra risk/work yielded a tangible benefit then sure, the end justifies the means. The problem is that so far it's only yielding at best parity. Look back at posts about a year or so ago and you'll read how people were expecting PS3 games to be many times better than 360 games by Xmas '07. Needless to say, that hasn't happened. In fact, many games are still having difficultly hitting parity.

I think his blog came to be from frustration at all the fud out there that paints PS3 as a super dooper machine that should be 10x better than 360, and that anyone that doesn't make it so must be an imbecile. That's why I understand his frustration. Clearly our PS3 lead is smart given that he's been coding games since the Timex Sinclair, and given that Sony keeps trying to steal him from us every other month. Clearly our ex-Nvidia guy on the render team will, believe it or not, know a thing or two about RSX. We're not all incompetent.

An aside to all this is that Sony is running out of time. In 2 to 3 years, many of us will be leaving old gen coding (360/PS3) and will start coding on the new new-gen (Xbox720). I'm getting close to the halfway coding point myself on the current generation so the switch for me is not really that far away. That's one of the dangers of making a box so difficult to dev for. By the time it gets a chance to shine, the next Xbox will already clobber it.
 
At some point Sony diehards will simply have to swallow the pill and accept the PS3 won't meet the bullshit expectations that Sony blurted out year after year. It's not that the games on the 360 are such shit that an equal status is a bad thing. It's the mentality. Waiting around for the PS3 to show up, buying into all the PR and spending a year + telling 360 owners how they made a mistake and how the PS3 will blow it away. Here we are today....

Even then, anytime a well produced exclusive game comes out they cling to the "OMG! NOT POSSIBLE ON THE 360!!!" tagline and then resort to calling other devs lazy or unskilled.
 
However, going back to his blog, his main frustration seems to be at the difficulty in getting the PS3 to perform some basics...

I think his blog came to be from frustration at all the fud out there that paints PS3 as a super dooper machine that should be 10x better than 360, and that anyone that doesn't make it so must be an imbecile. That's why I understand his frustration.
Sure, and his latter comments were fair in that respect. His faux pas was to try an engage in technical complaints that are plain wrong. Saying fillrate is limiting shader performance on PS3 is flat-out wring, right? And if you lead your discussion with wrong info, chances are people aren't going to be very open to the rest of it.

An aside to all this is that Sony is running out of time. In 2 to 3 years, many of us will be leaving old gen coding (360/PS3) and will start coding on the new new-gen (Xbox720). I'm getting close to the halfway coding point myself on the current generation so the switch for me is not really that far away. That's one of the dangers of making a box so difficult to dev for. By the time it gets a chance to shine, the next Xbox will already clobber it.
Well that's kinda moot if Sony follow the path a lot of us are expecting them to take and use a Cell variant in PS4. Then everything that's been a struggle this gen will be a doddle next gen. Worst case PS4 has the same memory architecture etc. as PS3 which everyone'll be used to, and better case things are improved while the algorithms and design philosophies will carry over exactly, with developers entering the cycle running full pelt.
 
At some point Sony diehards will simply have to swallow the pill and accept the PS3 won't meet the bullshit expectations that Sony blurted out year after year. It's not that the games on the 360 are such shit that an equal status is a bad thing. It's the mentality. Waiting around for the PS3 to show up, buying into all the PR and spending a year + telling 360 owners how they made a mistake and how the PS3 will blow it away. Here we are today....

Even then, anytime a well produced exclusive game comes out they cling to the "OMG! NOT POSSIBLE ON THE 360!!!" tagline and then resort to calling other devs lazy or unskilled.

Sure... but not all PS3 owners are like that. And I'm not sure why people keep bringing it up, or try to impose their predictions on future PS3 game performance.

I don't know what kind of expectation you have, but I am actually open minded about what the developers are able to put together. To tell you the truth, I am as much in love with Everyday Shooter's low-poly/low-res look as LBP's realistic look. I think the one thing they have done well is creativity (especially PSN games).

As for the rest, the game industry has to figure it out.
 
At some point Sony diehards will simply have to swallow the pill and accept the PS3 won't meet the bullshit expectations that Sony blurted out year after year. It's not that the games on the 360 are such shit that an equal status is a bad thing. It's the mentality. Waiting around for the PS3 to show up, buying into all the PR and spending a year + telling 360 owners how they made a mistake and how the PS3 will blow it away. Here we are today....

Even then, anytime a well produced exclusive game comes out they cling to the "OMG! NOT POSSIBLE ON THE 360!!!" tagline and then resort to calling other devs lazy or unskilled.

I can swallow the pill easily, i have Heavenly Sword that on an artistic and technical level is more than enough to prove that the PS3 can outperform the competition the same goes for R&C and a little game called GT. I don´t recall the competition having the kind of discussions regarding pure ingame trailers and how much that possibly couldn´t be ingame :)

How the developers chose to use this potential is a completely different discussion.
 
So you consider GT3, MGS2, DMC and FF(?) all pieces of technical crap.

All of those PS2 games you listed were released after the PS2 had already been out for a full year, as a matter of fact, many months after the PS2 had been out a full year.

Final PS2 retail hardware was launched in March 2000 making March 2001 the PS2's first full year.

There is a problem when this "game developer" claims that "PS3 exclusives will continue to suck" that merits no bravery whatsoever, nor any type of respect, he is in effect aside from trying to make his opinion known that he does not respect other game developers, primarily those that are currently working on PS3 specific game software.

I have played the Guitar Hero games on PS2 and XBox 360 and graphically and technically I see no reason to believe this "game developer" is having a hard time even if I exclude his clear insult to other game devs. Further I see no reason for him to take shots at the first person shooter Resistance Fall of Man or its developer (Insomniac Games) specially when that game has received excellent reviews in the gaming press.

I am afraid though that his blog may be cause alot of damage among the masses given the timing of his blog/article and the flame like pace it is spreading, I am left wondering if the can of worms he opened will instead turn into pandora's box.
 
I can swallow the pill easily, i have Heavenly Sword that on an artistic and technical level is more than enough to prove that the PS3 can outperform the competition the same goes for R&C and a little game called GT. I don´t recall the competition having the kind of discussions regarding pure ingame trailers and how much that possibly couldn´t be ingame :)

How the developers chose to use this potential is a completely different discussion.
Can you point to anything in particular about those titles that might be impossible to reproduce on the other platform?
 
I can swallow the pill easily, i have Heavenly Sword that on an artistic and technical level is more than enough to prove that the PS3 can outperform the competition the same goes for R&C and a little game called GT. I don´t recall the competition having the kind of discussions regarding pure ingame trailers and how much that possibly couldn´t be ingame :)

How the developers chose to use this potential is a completely different discussion.

Thanks for exemplifying the mindless chanting I was referring to :)
 
All of those PS2 games you listed were released after the PS2 had already been out for a full year, as a matter of fact, many months after the PS2 had been out a full year.

Final PS2 retail hardware was launched in March 2000 making March 2001 the PS2's first full year.

There is a problem when this "game developer" claims that "PS3 exclusives will continue to suck" that merits no bravery whatsoever, nor any type of respect, he is in effect aside from trying to make his opinion known that he does not respect other game developers, primarily those that are currently working on PS3 specific game software.

I have played the Guitar Hero games on PS2 and XBox 360 and graphically and technically I see no reason to believe this "game developer" is having a hard time even if I exclude his clear insult to other game devs. Further I see no reason for him to take shots at the first person shooter Resistance Fall of Man or its developer (Insomniac Games) specially when that game has received excellent reviews in the gaming press.

I am afraid though that his blog may be cause alot of damage among the masses given the timing of his blog/article and the flame like pace it is spreading, I am left wondering if the can of worms he opened will instead turn into pandora's box.

My bad. Was looking strictly at the NA timeline.
 
Sure, and his latter comments were fair in that respect. His faux pas was to try an engage in technical complaints that are plain wrong. Saying fillrate is limiting shader performance on PS3 is flat-out wring, right? And if you lead your discussion with wrong info, chances are people aren't going to be very open to the rest of it.

Well that's kinda moot if Sony follow the path a lot of us are expecting them to take and use a Cell variant in PS4. Then everything that's been a struggle this gen will be a doddle next gen. Worst case PS4 has the same memory architecture etc. as PS3 which everyone'll be used to, and better case things are improved while the algorithms and design philosophies will carry over exactly, with developers entering the cycle running full pelt.

Sure, totally fair on both points. I'm actually looking at this less on technical accuracy and more as a general problem with the industry. Yeah he did make some errors. But, theres a general problem brewing in the industry that he possibly inadvertently points out, where difficult beat my skull against the wall consoles with limited support are creating issues.

Maybe this is just in the USA, but I'm noticing many trends here. The obvious are previously mentioned things like skyrocketing budgets. Less obvious are constantly missed deadlines and their consequences. Not noticed by many is whats happening internally at many studios. I'm seeing more and more juniors, less and less veterans. I'm seeing people who've been coding games for 10 years burn out and exit the industry totally. I'm hearing grumblings of people tired of having to sleep at work or not see their spouse for weeks on end just to meet a milestone. I'm seeing people devote their lives to ship a game on both platforms by crunching 12-16 hours days for weeks on end, only to all get laid off right after the project ships.

To a certain extent, this has always happened in the industry. But it now seems to be getting more frequent. People exiting the business is becoming as frequent as people entering it. Expectations are becoming unrealistic. Quality of life is severely down. In some ways his blog to me was a way to say that overly complex platforms are not welcome anymore, when it's clear that things can be done in a simpler manner with a similar result. 360 was a step in the right direction to me not because it was done by Microsoft, but because it helped the industry from a quality of life perspective. For perhaps the first time ever, the developper got great tools and support from day one. PS3 to me is trying to pull things back in the other direction where the developer is basically cattle and expected to sacrifice himself to the mighty mother ship. That's just antiquated to me now.

I recall an event that happened in the last crunch where we were trying solve an issue on PS3 and one of the coders I was with told me he had missed his daughters first words because he was crunching. Sounds silly and mellow dramatic, but that kind of thing just gets one thinking. At the time, which was actually just before my now ill fated charalatan post, it got me thinking why in the hell should we be struggling like this to get basics working when this was all so easy on 360? Why do we tolerate this? Well, from the amount of people exiting the industry, it would appear that less and less are.

He may not have intended any of this with his blog, but thats partly how I read it. Help us out, don't treat us like a cog in the machine. Give us a balanced machine, and support us. I like the direction 360 took the industry. I do not like the PS3 pulling us back. It doesn't need to be this way. Worse yet, I can't help but wonder how long it can continue on this way. As the people playing games have aged, so have the people creating them. People want to see their kids and families and will be less and less tolerant of sacrificing them to meet milestone 3b.
 
joker,

With the budgets rising dramatically, I'd assume that "jobs on the line" is more true also. In the context that your games must sell in larger volume than before to break even. You're also much more limited in the EA model: throw enough shit at the wall and hope some sticks while the proven IP's can make up the difference in losses in need be.

If this generation means budgets keep rising but software sales are lower, then there is clearly a flaw in the business model. Such models should be progressive, not regressive. Would it be safe to say that smaller devs are putting more much on the line with a next gen game?

As much we talk about Bioshock and Halo3 like success, more games end up like Tony Hawk than those games. The ROI model is much less forgiving this generation. If the Wii 3party software sales were good, I'd be willing to bet that the PS3 would suffer the most in terms of devs' jumping ship. While we can discuss "passion for developing for the lastest and greatest" and such, at the end of the day, if the business model fails and your don't have a job, does it matter?
 
Sure, and his latter comments were fair in that respect. His faux pas was to try an engage in technical complaints that are plain wrong. Saying fillrate is limiting shader performance on PS3 is flat-out wring, right? And if you lead your discussion with wrong info, chances are people aren't going to be very open to the rest of it.

Did he go back and change his post? His comment seems to be written poorly. But it seems that he literally claims that due to less fillrate, simpler shaders have to be used to maintain the same performance. This comment seems wrong. But his later statements lead me to believe that in his opinion its the less fill rate plus less efficient shaders that ultimately lead to using simpler shaders to maintain frame performance.

"The fill rate on the PS3 is significantly slower"

+

"the shader processing on the ps3 is significantly slower than on the 360, which means that a normal map takes more fill rate to draw on the ps3 than it does on the 360"

=

"games either have to run at lower resolution or use simpler shader effects to achieve the same performance."

I don't know if thats true or not. I don't particularly care (I couldn't get through half the post as its goes into PS3 bashfest 2007) as my eyes are the ultimate decider in visual quality.
 
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However, going back to his blog, his main frustration seems to be at the difficulty in getting the PS3 to perform some basics.
Well..when you (I mean him..) don't even know what fillrate means..then I'm not really surprised ppl like him can't make PS3 perform to some basics.
 
BTW...I know what I'm going to say it's going to sound arrogant but...if ppl think PS3 is hard to program for, how the hell were we (as developers) shipping games on PS2 a few years ago? which was, in my not so humble opinion, MUCH HARDER to develop for.
I guess in a few years we got all more stupid..
 
I can swallow the pill easily, i have Heavenly Sword that on an artistic and technical level is more than enough to prove that the PS3 can outperform the competition the same goes for R&C and a little game called GT.

So the 360 can't compete with the art design of PS3 titles? Oh lord, tkf, you've hit a new low:LOL:
 
joker454, just want to thank you for the fantastic, insightful posts you just put here.

One little note:
That's a fair way to put it. For example, Little Big Planet may very well not be possible on 360 depending on how complex the physics simulation is.
I probably would have thought this is a possibility a couple years ago, but ironically Sony's physics demos have convinced me otherwise.

Some of the demos I've seen are at least two orders of magnitude more complex than anything I've seen in games. It's ridiculous. Even if Cell was 10x as powerful as 360's CPU at physics, the 360 would be more than capable of exceeding the physics seen in LBP.

Having 100,000 objects rotating and moving while responding to gravity or wind is a piece of cake even for 360. Having 10,000 of them colliding with walls or objects each frame is easy too. What I've learned from coding a physics engine, however, is that the hard part is when they all pile up on each other and you have forces propagating through stacks of objects. What Sony showed with those enormous stacks of boxes is unreal.

You never have anywhere near that many simultaneous interactions and collisions going on in a game. Hell, you don't even see that in movies! Physics in games is largely about RAM (keeping track of the state of everything in a game world) and software.

LBP is a showcase of develop creativity, not hardware power. They figured out how to incorporate physics into gameplay better than anyone else has ever done before. This game and GT5 are the two games that make a PS3 appealing to me, and their superiority comes entirely from software.
 
BTW...I know what I'm going to say it's going to sound arrogant but...if ppl think PS3 is hard to program for, how the hell were we (as developers) shipping games on PS2 a few years ago? which was, in my not so humble opinion, MUCH HARDER to develop for.
I guess in a few years we got all more stupid..
For the same game, yeah, PS2 is a lot harder to develop for from what I've heard. But people aren't developing games at a PS2 level of complexity for next gen consoles, are they.

I think when people are saying PS3 is hard to code for, it's when compared to 360. When things go so smoothly on that platform, they can spend lots of time making the game more complex and go after their vision without worrying about making code machine friendly.

If there was no 360, then there wouldn't be anything to complain about since PS3 would be the only game in town. Perhaps part of the problem is that Sony oversold the powers of PS3, so people just assumed that if 360 could run it then PS3 could blow through it. Another reason for complaints could be that porting is just seen as a pain in the ass. For PS2->XBox, MS minimized that pain, so people didn't complain much. Now that MS has taken over as the lead platform, 360->PS3 seems a lot harder.
 
I'd also add that before the 360 and PS3 were even fully known quantities, people were saying ahead of time that PS3 would be 1000x harder to develop on than anything before, and certainly more so than what was then called either Xenon and/or "XboxNext"... and that I think was largely driven by fear. The very thought of something with 9 cores supported by the APIs that you'd get from Sony at the face of it sounded like a completely ridiculous proposition. Given the PS2, that's not really an *unfounded* fear.

The other side of it is that for the people who could make some more educated guesses based on the limited information of the time, what they foresaw with both platforms was something that throws back to a somewhat different era where things like instruction latency end up ruling the day, and the skills and mindset to think about that are by in large completely gone these days. Even for those of us who would enjoy being able to dive in to this kind of primordial soup (people like me for whom a race against the compiler is kind of like being a kid again), we also can't always be armies of one. When you know that the majority of talent out there simply don't have it in them, you know it's going to be a challenge on the team level.
 
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