That was ugly. I suggest people avoid the comments! Nothing Marco mentioned is really new to the discussion (the technical points in the blog are wrong) and you catch site of...ugh, dirty internet fanboy rantings from both side. Now I need a wash! 
*Game Development Issues*
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::cough::Bandwidth to support fillrate::cough::
RSX doesn't have the bandwidth to support peak fillrate for 8ROPs, let alone 16 (which were reduced to 8 for this very reason). RSX only has similar fillrate to Xenos on paper. That has been discussed substantially in the past that I thought it was common knowledge here.
It disproves no such thing.
Because a game uses 3 (360) or 8 (PS3) cores doesn't mean games plsit well across multiple processors. Infact, a lot of games use multiple cores *because they have to* not because *games split well across multiple processors*. You are going to get craptastic performance using a single PPE on either platform.
Further, a lot of games use quite crude parallelization. Things are getting better, but I doubt 10% of PS3 games, "use all the SPEs a lot of the time". Especially with big exclusive developers like Evolution throwing out numbers like 20% utilization.
We can cherry pick scenarios and games with good SPE utilization. But that doesn't prove games--or more properly games at this point in technological development and design practices--split well across multiple processors at this time. Your results may vary depending on your design and budgets, but this isn't some slam dunk solved issue.
That was ugly. I suggest people avoid the comments! Nothing Marco mentioned is really new to the discussion (the technical points in the blog are wrong) and you catch site of...ugh, dirty internet fanboy rantings from both side. Now I need a wash!
Actually I found this downright funny
Marco Salvi aka nAo is a well knowed sony fanboy, here at beyond3d
he spend half of his life trying to defend the ps3
just look at his post history
awesome
incredible how the sony defence force hit someone at his throat when he touch the ps3
And "half his life" no less... It's amazing he got any work done!
Judging by the amount of comments, he should post more inflaming articles and hook up some Google ads; then at least he could make some moola off all the fanboys...
Agree with Archie, it was an inflammatory article. The opening para doesn't help things at all. Here it is...
"I read various game forums from time to time, and often see gamers complaining about 'lazy ports' to the ps3. They often mention how the ps3 is the most powerful game console and blame developers working on the console for doing a bad job. Sony has all of these people duped by impressive marketing spin, and I'm often amazed at how potent this type of rhetoric proves to be. For those unaware, I'm going to break it down simply and explain exactly why ports to the ps3 will never be as good as their 360 counter parts, and why most ps3 exclusives will likely continue to suck. First, lets debunk a few common misconceptions:"
"I read various game forums from time to time, and often see gamers complaining about 'lazy ports' to the ps3. They often mention how the ps3 is the most powerful game console and blame developers working on the console for doing a bad job. Sony has all of these people duped by impressive marketing spin, and I'm often amazed at how potent this type of rhetoric proves to be. For those unaware, I'm going to break it down simply and explain exactly why ports to the ps3 will never be as good as their 360 counter parts, and why most ps3 exclusives will likely continue to suck. First, lets debunk a few common misconceptions:"
Yes. But it is also inaccurate (for Booth) to declare outright that games do not split well to multiprocessors. We are just starting to see some good results at a price point, space, noise and heat requirements PCs can't match -- within a year.
The utilization numbers may not be indicative of MP game performance at this point. Even 1st/2nd party devs (like Ninja Theory and NaughtyDog) learned their % utilization late in the game according to interviews. I think nAo also commented that he didn't know what the upper limit was because whatever he threw at the SPUs, it always gets done on time. So people are still learning the hardware.
The way I read it, it's just a pissed off dev who wants to point out they're not lazy at all.
I'll look into Jericho's PS3 resolution & see if I can pin it down in multiple locations but here is what I noticed that Gamespot wrote.
http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/adventu...t=convert&om_clk=gssummary&tag=summary;review
I was looking into what I thought I had read months ago about Oblivion shipping with better textures, but I think its just better optimized shaders. However here is a link showing the 360 version vs. the PS3 version. You can see it in SD or HD & clearly the PS3 is substantially better. I don't think its just better texture filtering.
http://www.gamingbits.com/content/view/1859/2/
Edit: This would be the only other site I can find anything about Jericho for the PS3 as far as resolution so I guess its true about it being 560p for the PS3.
So, you think PS3 games will never be fillrate limited? That's not common knowledge for me.
I would agree however, It's likely a game will hit the bandwidth limit first. (But there is the whole "sharing with CPU" argument on the other side)
In any case, it feels like if the guy really knew what he was saying, he should have attacked BW instead, or vertex shaders, or even maybe triangle setup.
I agree with that statement, but we had games with 0 SPU usage, now even third parties are using as much as they need. I don't see how one can conclude (or imply) multicore CPU muscle is not important, especially a developer.
here? I wonder who he is.Some bitter guy with no name said:
I'm not sure whether comparing a game which had almost a year between release on different platforms adds a lot to the discussion.
Edit - oh, what the hell. It's all fuzzy logic anyway.
Well hasn't the PS3 upgrades made it to the PC in a patch & not the 360? Think I've read it has but this could be internet rumor.
But that sounds pretty typical. If its better & a year later its not significant, but if its bad & year later it is significant. Wasn't the PS3 not even released for the first 6 to 8 months of Oblivions PC/360 release?
But that sounds pretty typical. If its better & a year later its not significant, but if its bad & year later it is significant. Wasn't the PS3 not even released for the first 6 to 8 months of Oblivions PC/360 release?
You've missed my edit.
But as a consumer I'd expect the later game to be *at least* as good as the old release in this case (comparable platforms).I think PC/360 were 03-06 and PS3 03-07...
Heh, ya I missed your edit. I was asking when the PS3 console was released. Wasn't that like November 06 in the US? If Oblivion was shooting to be a launch title or not I have no idea.You've missed my edit.
I think PC/360 were 03-06 and PS3 03-07...
Edit: I see your point about "as a consumer I'd expect the later game to be *at least* as good as the old release" but surely the fact that the PS3 console not being released till well after the PC/360 version of Oblivion shouldn't be held against the PS3 consoles capabilities.
At any rate. I've sided with the PS3 in my own house for reasons other then "which would look better on my HDTV". I like the fact that the PS3 does things the 360 can't. Like surf the net, & allow a mouse. Even though these have nothing to do with the topic. But back on topic. Having owned both I first thought the 360 looked better but now I think I am leaning towards the PS3 after having fiddled with TV & PS3 settings.
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I'm the exact opposite. I love the things the PS3 doesn't do, like making a lot of noise.
Got the PS3 hooked up to the plasma in the living room (as I use it mostly for watching movies these days) and I would never consider doing that with my 360.
The 360 is in the 'bassment' on the projector and the 5.1 set. I don't care about its noise in that environment.
As for x-platform games, I think we'll see ups and downs on either side but I'm pretty sure I'll end up with the 360 version (unless they really f*ck it up) most of the time, because of achievements and the friends / communication stuff.
Crossing my fingers Sony will fix the latter in the rumored 2.0 update though.
Yes the noise factor is another bonus for the PS3. Although I was pretty surprised about the amount of heat the PS3 puts out. I guess I was figuring the lack of noise would also translate into less heat. Not sure if I want those add-on cooling deals for the PS3 like you can buy for the 360 by Intercooler. The one for the 360 is pretty loud but does help keep it cooler as far as I can tell by putting the hand at the vents.
The pre-65nm model PS3 runs equal to or even slightly warmer than the 360 if I remember correctly, but it just has a far superior cooling system (remember that huge - was it 15cm? - outwards blowing fan?) meaning that all that heat is efficiently pushed out of the console, which then you notice. So long as that hot air has some place to go, you'll be fine. If it doesn't then the PS3 will first get progressively more noisy as it blows even harder, and then simply shut itself off - in theory anyway, not that I have tested this. (some people tested it in a sauna though)
So definitely don't get that extra cooler solution, just make sure there's at least a little bit of room to breathe for the air-vent and you'll be fine.
(some people tested it in a sauna though)So definitely don't get that extra cooler solution, just make sure there's at least a little bit of room to breathe for the air-vent and you'll be fine.
Yeah thats what it sounded like to me. In fairness to him, we don't all get 4+ years and 30+ million dollars to make a game, so the lazy dev comments do get old. More so when Sony clearly helps some studios yet leaves others like us out to dry.
Plus, I think some peoples expectations of what PS3 is capable of doing are way out of touch with reality, and his blog is a bit of a reality check. The two machines are far closer than most people think.
His writing is very simplified but I think he did that purposely to make it accessible to anyone that reads his blog. I'm sure he could have gone all technobabble, but what's the point when you'd alienate most of the readers that way. It may not be 100% accurate, but I think it gets the point across. EDIT: Making a quick edit here, I don't agree with his knock at multiprocessor coding. It's the only way to scale performance at a reasonable cost so like it or not, it's the future.
Aside from his "ps3 exclusives will continue to suck" comment which was clear flamebait, I'd say some of his other opinions are shared by many others. He was just brave/foolish enough to throw them on a blog. At least I was wise enough to just stick with a forum
PARANOiA said:
Ugh, you never want to post on sites like that!! Even if you're Carmack, everyone will just assume you're a 10 year old kid n00b fan-boy no matter what you say. Heck, even people here thought I was a 10 year old n00b fan-boy for the longest time and even wanted to track me down! I'd just stick to the more established forums.
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I agree that it's absolutely assinine to call developers lazy. That much I agree with.
However, I feel his comments are purely sensational and are highly inaccurate from start to finish.
I attribute no bravely at all to this fellow. Booth's ravings are unsubstantiated, false, and in many cases outright insulting.
Unless, you believe you can't handle the PS3 the comments came off as an overt slap in the face to me. Some developers can do and will accomplish great things with the hardware not because the hardware is god's gift but because they have skill, know how, and the right attitude to get it done.
It is beside the point that the PS3 isn't near as impotent as he describes. Nevermind the fact that is outright untrue that game studios are never going to be able to handle parallel exectution when many are already doing so right now. That blade is indiscriminant in who is cuts down. Its an insult.
I especially did not appreciate the dig at Insomniac games. It was highly uncalled for Booth to suggest the way Insomniac leveraged Blu-Ray was for some other reason than for the benefit of Resistance:Fall of Man. Further insult is he provides only rhetoric and no proof to this actually being done at Insomniac. To go after another developer so openly with no base for your claims is highly unprofessional and downright shameful.
I will not grant this fellow any such credence as bravery when he props up blatant inaccuracies in what he says, faultly logic, and doesn't for a moment seem to wish to encourage Sony to take any particular action to help him in any way, shape, or form.
No. He only berates them. He does not seek help or suggest any method or process by which Sony could improve things because THAT was never his goal.
I repeat that no one should call developers lazy as that's absurd. However IF that was the issue he wished to address then it could have EASILY been pointed how wrong it is to put lazy and developer in the same sentence. One could mention man hours, eduction, co-operation, process, resources, turn over, specific challenges to development on respective platforms and a HOST of other data if the desire was to elucidate just how hard it is to make games for a living. This could have been done without slamming Sony or anyone else.
I frankly doubt anything like this ever even entered Booth's mind.
This is not to say that one can't point out Sony's mistakes. However, if the intention is not to help Sony correct them in some manner then it's a wasted effort. Being angry alone solves nothing. Much less when it seems you don't even know what you're angry about.
However, I feel his comments are purely sensational and are highly inaccurate from start to finish.
I attribute no bravely at all to this fellow. Booth's ravings are unsubstantiated, false, and in many cases outright insulting.
Unless, you believe you can't handle the PS3 the comments came off as an overt slap in the face to me. Some developers can do and will accomplish great things with the hardware not because the hardware is god's gift but because they have skill, know how, and the right attitude to get it done.
It is beside the point that the PS3 isn't near as impotent as he describes. Nevermind the fact that is outright untrue that game studios are never going to be able to handle parallel exectution when many are already doing so right now. That blade is indiscriminant in who is cuts down. Its an insult.
I especially did not appreciate the dig at Insomniac games. It was highly uncalled for Booth to suggest the way Insomniac leveraged Blu-Ray was for some other reason than for the benefit of Resistance:Fall of Man. Further insult is he provides only rhetoric and no proof to this actually being done at Insomniac. To go after another developer so openly with no base for your claims is highly unprofessional and downright shameful.
I will not grant this fellow any such credence as bravery when he props up blatant inaccuracies in what he says, faultly logic, and doesn't for a moment seem to wish to encourage Sony to take any particular action to help him in any way, shape, or form.
No. He only berates them. He does not seek help or suggest any method or process by which Sony could improve things because THAT was never his goal.
I repeat that no one should call developers lazy as that's absurd. However IF that was the issue he wished to address then it could have EASILY been pointed how wrong it is to put lazy and developer in the same sentence. One could mention man hours, eduction, co-operation, process, resources, turn over, specific challenges to development on respective platforms and a HOST of other data if the desire was to elucidate just how hard it is to make games for a living. This could have been done without slamming Sony or anyone else.
I frankly doubt anything like this ever even entered Booth's mind.
This is not to say that one can't point out Sony's mistakes. However, if the intention is not to help Sony correct them in some manner then it's a wasted effort. Being angry alone solves nothing. Much less when it seems you don't even know what you're angry about.
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It relies on who you ask, Microsoft did a good job at putting the two machines on an Equal base. Now it´s up to the PS3 developers to prove that they are wrong (or right). From what i have seen with Heavenly Sword and R&C (only demo) i would say that these 2 games make the PS3 look very good.
Case point?
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