Free Xbox 360 Game Dev Tool!

[Proelite]

Actually it seems debugging happens on both...



My last post also ponders the question of whether the game will cease to run at all after it's been downloaded to the Xbox 360 and the subscription is over. If the Creator's Club is only for sharing like you say, then it would seem to me that the game should continue to work. However, if there's more to it than sharing, then something tells me the games might cease to work.

Tommy McClain

We'll have to see about that. Although I don't think it would make sense for Microsoft to discontinue the game after your subscription runs out, because
1. You can always have the pc version for free.
2. It means that there has to be a certification process that make sure that this process works.
3. Microsoft won't own the rights to the games, so they won't have control over this aspect.
4. This program is made to encourage game development, so Microsoft doing this would be going against their ideals.

 

[AzBat]

I would guess the games stay on your harddrive, but you won't be able to share or play online with the members of the creator's club. I think this program is more focused on people getting experience making console games, rather than the people who wants to play home-brew.

I understand how you're classifying the system and I agree for the most part. But the whole reason for doing this is not necessarily for creating a new workforce of game developers for the future, but to get more content out there that normally wouldn't because of start up costs and publishers that don't take chances.

There will be an audience for these homebrew games, but I don't think it's just for members of the Creators Club. I suspect the developers themselves are hoping for access to the general public and if that never happens then I suspect the developers will leave and program will fail.

Tommy McClain

 

[Proelite]

I understand how you're classifying the system and I agree for the most part. But the whole reason for doing this is not necessarily for creating a new workforce of game developers for the future, but to get more content out there that normally wouldn't because of start up costs and publishers that don't take chances.

There will be an audience for these homebrew games, but I don't think it's just for members of the Creators Club. I suspect the developers themselves are hoping for access to the general public and if that never happens then I suspect the developers will leave and program will fail.

Tommy McClain

Supposedly there will be a more advanced XNA studio express years down the line that will allow you to have your games put on XBLA. As for the the current program, there are probably tons of people who will stay for the pc side of things. The creator's club is just a bonus.

 

[Titanio]

The longer term strategy here is for MS to make C# and XNA a marketable skill for game development. Ideally for them, it becomes a mandatory skill.

As a gameplay scripting tool, it's already useful in 'proper' game development, along with others like python and lua etc. So it's useful to have if that's the avenue of work you're looking at, and more generally as an introduction to programming.. But C++ is still the standard, for core technologies at least (performance critical code). It's still valuable to learn about memory management, even with these new systems, perhaps more than ever. The standings of different languages may shift over time - that's probably a discussion beyond the scope of this thread - but for a variety of reasons, the mere option of (unmanaged) C++ would have been welcome.

Good news is the Creator's Club subscription will also be purchased via Marketplace either a one-time fee of $99 or $49 for 4 months. The $99 deal sounds alot better, but if you think you can develop or debug your game in 4 months more power to you.

Unfortunately it's $99/year, not a one time fee.

Anyway, it seems like a great start for the program. I can really see opening the homebrew games to non "Creator Club" members taking some time. I've read varying opinions on when that will happen, but evidently it could happen as early as next spring when XNA Game Studio Professional ships.

XNA Game Studio Professional isn't aimed at the homebrewers so much. It won't be free, it'll cost money. Using that you can publish to XBLA (pending MS's certification of your game), but it won't open the door to Game Studio Express content generally on XBLA.

 

[darkblu]

I don't think Microsoft is forcing anything on the professional developers. They are not even required to use XNA if they see it as unfit for the job.

that's why you may want to read Fafalada's post again.

 

[Proelite]

that's why you may want to read Fafalada's post again.

Sorry, his tone came across as sarcastic on the first read.

 

[AzBat]

Supposedly there will be a more advanced XNA studio express years down the line that will allow you to have your games put on XBLA.

Read above. XNA Game Studio Professional is being planned for release next spring for the developing of commercial games. Commercial games may or may not get certification and if they do it's not known whether or not they will be made part of the Live Arcade brand. Microsoft could just as easily segregate between homebrew games and those that fit the Live Arcade brand. So, non-commercial(aka homebrew) could still make it to the Xbox Live service, but as user content, not Live Aracade.

Tommy McClain

 

[darkblu]

Sorry, his tone came across as sarcastic on the first read.

you got that part right. what escaped you is that he went on on his own and invited ms to apply the same tactic to commercial code for the sheer benefits of it. he did not imply one bit that ms are actully doing it at present.

 

[AzBat]

Unfortunately it's $99/year, not a one time fee.

I don't see as such, but each his own. A subscription can be cancelled at anytime. BTW, it's also $49 for 4 months as well. All charges are made via Marketplace using MS Points.

XNA Game Studio Professional isn't aimed at the homebrewers so much. It won't be free, it'll cost money. Using that you can publish to XBLA (pending MS's certification of your game), but it won't open the door to Game Studio Express content generally on XBLA.

I'm not suggesting that Game Studio Express content being made available through the Live Arcade brand for free. Read above. I'm suggesting that Microsoft may in fact offer the non-commercial games made with Game Studio Express via Xbox Live, but not part of the Live Arcade brand. I could see them creating another brand for that kind of content as they will not want to dilute the Live Arcade brand by including hundreds, if not thousands of homebrew games of varying quality.

Tommy McClain

 

[Sis]

Given how wonderfully splendid and brilliant IBMs console PPCs perform in general purpose code, I cannot but agree more, interpreted code will truly fly on them like noones bussiness.

It's a good thing IL code is precompiled or jitted and not interpreted then. The biggest problem with using C# is the framework overhead and the working set size. But the thing just needs to run good enough.

Do you think that the games being developed in this fashion truly need API access to the metal?

 

[Demirug]

It's a good thing IL code is precompiled or jitted and not interpreted then. The biggest problem with using C# is the framework overhead and the working set size. But the thing just needs to run good enough.

The XBox use a framework that is based on the compact version that is used for Windows Mobil. It have a smaller memory footprint than full blown PC version.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Not sure if this FAQ has been posted:

Q: Can I use the XNA Game Studio Express or XNA Framework to build a commercial Xbox 360 game?
A: XNA Game Studio Express will enable you to create Windows and now Xbox 360 console games much more easily. These games are limited to non-commercial scenarios for 360 titles created with XNA Game Studio Express. However, XNA Game Studio Express may be used to create commercial games which target Windows. We will be releasing XNA Game Studio Professional next spring which will allow developers to create commercial games for Xbox addition to Windows.

Q: Isn't managed code in the XNA Framework interpreted and therefore slow?
A: No, it is not interpreted. The IL is just-in-time (JIT) compiled into native code when it is initially loaded by a process, prior to execution. This allows hardware-specific optimizations unique to the PC and Xbox 360 architectures.

Q: Why isn't there any Xbox 360 support in the beta?
A: Microsoft does not release beta software on the Xbox 360 for security reasons. Thanks to the design and implementation of the XNA Framework on both Windows and Xbox 360 however, games developed using the XNA Game Studio Express beta starting August 30th will be easily adapted to run against the Xbox 360 retail console upon availability of the finished tools later this holiday.

Q: How exactly can I share my 360 game to other 360 users? Will my game only be available to people with the XNA "Creators Club" subscription? Will it be available to all 360 users that have an Xbox Live account?
A: There is currently no supported way to share binaries on the Xbox 360. Currently, there are four requirements that must be met in order to share a game targeting Xbox 360 which is developed with XNA Game Studio Express.
1. The individual you are planning to share the game with must be logged in to Xbox Live and have an active subscription to the XNA Creators Club
2. The receiving user must have downloaded the XNA Framework runtime environment for the Xbox 360
3. The receiving user must have XNA Game Studio Express installed on their own development PC
4. The game project, including all source and content assets, must be shared with the receiving user. The receiving user then compiles and deploys the game to their Xbox 360.

Q: Can I store my XNA Game Studio Express game on my memory card and share it with a friend?
A: No. Games developed using XNA Game Studio Express cannot be shared through a memory card at this time.

Q: Do I need a hard drive to run XNA-based games on my Xbox 360 console?
A: Yes. The XNA Framework runtime environment for Xbox 360 requires that a physical hard drive be present on your Xbox 360 retail console.

Q: Can I create non-gaming applications (such as a Media Center/Player) with XNA Game Studio Express?
A: On Windows this is possible, but the initial release on Xbox 360 is tuned to writing games. This is an area we are actively looking to the community for feedback on the types of applications they want to write for their Xbox 360.

Q: Does the XNA Framework include the ability to use Xbox Live?
A: The initial release of the XNA Framework on the Xbox 360 will not have any support for networking. We realize this is a big area of interest for game developers and are actively working on a solution for the next release.

Q: How can you debug XNA-based games running on the Xbox 360?
A: Debugging on the console is supported through a remote debugging connection from a Windows desktop running XNA Game Studio Express.

Q: How will the XNA Framework be available to developers?
A: The XNA Framework will be made available to Windows game developers via a free download. In order to develop for the 360, developers will need to join the XNA "Creators Club" which includes everything a developer needs to build non-commercial games for an Xbox 360 retail console.

Q: How exactly will I be able to run a game built with XNA Game Studio Express on my Xbox 360?
A: On Windows, you'll be able to develop, test and distribute software created with XNA Game Studio Express for free. When you sign up for the nominally priced annual subscription to XNA Game Studio Express for Xbox 360, you'll be able to write a game on Windows, then send it to your Xbox 360 to test and enjoy. Eventually, you'll be able to distribute that code to other Xbox 360s, opening up a unique publishing avenue which will democratize game development on consoles.

Question: Does this open the door for a media center application with DivX/Xvid and other codecs included?

 

[Inane_Dork]

Given how wonderfully splendid and brilliant IBMs console PPCs perform in general purpose code, I cannot but agree more, interpreted code will truly fly on them like noones bussiness.

Given that they can (and have) made a special version of the .NET library for the 360, how much performance will truely be lost? Yes, some will be lost. But how much? And then please give realistic projections for how significant that loss will be.

Indeed, I applaud this and invite Microsoft to force C# on the entire professional 360 development as well, and I can vouch that everyone from Sony and Nintendo would rejoice and pat MS on the back for such forward thinking and a wonderful move to reach out to developers and move the development processes into the future.

This part is simply unwarranted. MS putting restrictions on homebrew development for their initiatives on their platforms is not out of the question.

This is infinitely superior to Nintendo's stance, yet MS gets the harangue?

 

[LightHeaven]

Given how wonderfully splendid and brilliant IBMs console PPCs perform in general purpose code, I cannot but agree more, interpreted code will truly fly on them like noones bussiness. Indeed, I applaud this and invite Microsoft to force C# on the entire professional 360 development as well, and I can vouch that everyone from Sony and Nintendo would rejoice and pat MS on the back for such forward thinking and a wonderful move to reach out to developers and move the development processes into the future.

I found this on the FAQ:

Q: Isn’t managed code in the XNA Framework interpreted and therefore slow?
A: No, it is not interpreted. The IL is just-in-time (JIT) compiled into native code when it is initially loaded by a process, prior to execution. This allows hardware-specific optimizations unique to the PC and Xbox 360 architectures.

I've heard bedore (but wasnt sure) that C# wouldnt need to be interpreted in Framework 2.0, maybe thats what he's is talking about?

EDIT: Yeah, he definately talks about being compiled specially for the platafform:

Q: Will I be able to develop a game and run it on both Xbox 360 and Windows?
A: You will have to compile the game once for each platform. In this release, you will have to create a separate project for each platform, and compile them both. Our goal is to allow as much code as possible to be shared between those two projects, allowing you to use the same source files in both projects, but platform-specific code will need to be conditionally-compiled.

 

[a688]

What rhymes with mud?

I found this on the FAQ:


I've heard bedore (but wasnt sure) that C# wouldnt need to be interpreted in Framework 2.0, maybe thats what he's is talking about?

EDIT: Yeah, he definately talks about being compiled specially for the platafform:

No .NET languages are interpreted. All are JIT compiled. Fafalada doesn't know what he is talking about. The reason for .NET is probably to ease the differences between platforms. It is possible for 1 exe across platforms but you'd probably want to optimize for each. Remember, these are games from "amatures", not big game companies. They arguable don't need nearly as much control over the entire system, but exceptions always exist.

 

[Titanio]

Remember, these are games from "amatures", not big game companies.

Eh..whilst I agree that for the purposes of many of the projects created with this, a managed language is fine, there is much value in an option that is much closer to what professional developers use for a lot of their code. The potential value of the venture for experience and education would be higher with that option than without. If you're asking which they should have included if they could only include one, well, I don't know - but the question others might ask is if they had to limit themselves to just one. (And yes, I DO understand why they chose C#, but that won't stop some people lamenting the absence of a lower-level option).

 

[Fafalada]

All are JIT compiled.

I thought the other exagerations were a clue not to take the whole thing literally. Also I know it was stealthy, but I thought it was obvious it wasn't MS who I was actually criticising in the post. But it's a good lesson to me not to post sarcasm heavy at 3am.

At any rate, while (as you said yourself) development at this level really won't be concerned with performance - JIT doesn't solve the concerns I was referring to anyhow.

 

[aaaaa00]

It's a good thing IL code is precompiled or jitted and not interpreted then. The biggest problem with using C# is the framework overhead and the working set size. But the thing just needs to run good enough.

Do you think that the games being developed in this fashion truly need API access to the metal?

Yup, I really don't think it's a problem. Most of these guys would otherwise be writing games in AJAX or Flash with interpreted ActionScript -- JIT'ed C# with DirectX access is already a huge step up from there in terms of performance.

 

[V3]

I don't like their deployment strategy. Why can't it be more simple like Live Arcade ?

Having to get the source, and to compile and deploy and all the mambo jambo make it sounds really nerdy and troublesome and limit its appeal.

Also can you get the membership monthly ? So say if you see some games you like, you join for just one month to download the game, instead of paying $99/year with no guarantee you're going to see games that you like ?

 

[lefizz]

I think is is safe to say once this whole project is up and running that MS will take the better bits of home coded stuff and release them on 'Live'.
It has already been strongly hint as such.

I think this may well be one of MS's finer moment, it really increases the appeal of the 360 to a certain, and very influential portion of the community. I really cant wait to see what this produces in a year or so. So many cracking games such as bridge builder and armadillo run that would work perfectly in such an enviroment.

Well done all those at MS, very positive move all around