:? That's exactly what Iron Tiger was saying. For a simulation, smoothness is more improtant that prettiness, and they aim for at least 60 fps.
Forza: The new simluation king? :D
- Thread starter EndR
- Start date
60fps is great, but to me 30fps is fine too. PGR2 looks fine to me, if anything it feels a bit more 'solid' than 60fps PGR1 and Forza will likely be the same.
I don't think we will get 60fps as standard even in this next generation. The problem is that developers get to a point where they are using the full potential of a machine at 60fps, but it just won't look far enough advanced from other games. What is the first thing they will cut in order to get more detail going on the screen? The framerate.
If the dev can get away with it, like they did in PGR2 and it is still playable, then it is an acceptable trade-off. Pretty graphics on the back of the box is a lot more tangible to a potential customer than the promise of 60fps, and is another reason why until we get to the point were graphics are so ridiculously powerful that there would be nothing more you could do to a scene that would be worth taking away those frames, it is going to be the first thing to be sacrificed in the pursuit of better visuals.
Just as a slight aside, and this maybe a silly question, but why 30fps or 60fps? Why not 45fps or any other number in between? I know 30fps and 60fps is in sync with television refresh rates, but computer monitors manage it ok don't they? What is different about TV's, and with HDTV arriving or having arrived, does this debate really matter any more when televisions are closer to monitors than ever before?
I don't think we will get 60fps as standard even in this next generation. The problem is that developers get to a point where they are using the full potential of a machine at 60fps, but it just won't look far enough advanced from other games. What is the first thing they will cut in order to get more detail going on the screen? The framerate.
If the dev can get away with it, like they did in PGR2 and it is still playable, then it is an acceptable trade-off. Pretty graphics on the back of the box is a lot more tangible to a potential customer than the promise of 60fps, and is another reason why until we get to the point were graphics are so ridiculously powerful that there would be nothing more you could do to a scene that would be worth taking away those frames, it is going to be the first thing to be sacrificed in the pursuit of better visuals.
Just as a slight aside, and this maybe a silly question, but why 30fps or 60fps? Why not 45fps or any other number in between? I know 30fps and 60fps is in sync with television refresh rates, but computer monitors manage it ok don't they? What is different about TV's, and with HDTV arriving or having arrived, does this debate really matter any more when televisions are closer to monitors than ever before?
I just viewed 2 Forza movies from IGN out of curiosity. There are two obvious points for me.
1) What's so good about the visuals? The lighting seems weak, the reflections unconvincing, and the sceneries no different to any other racer with 2D cardboard cutout crowds. The framerate looks fine to me but I can't see what wonderful benefit this has for the visuals.
2) How great are the collision physics going to be when the collisions appear to be bounding box based? There's a movie of a car (yellow Elise I think) travelling through a night city scene, being banged into. The collision thump sounds are very audible when the car to the player's side crunches into it's tail, but there is clear, visible space between the cars, and the effect on the racer seems non existent. Considering the players obvious lack of ability given their frequent crashing out at corners, getting thrown by a thump in the back should have at least shown a wobble.
Going by the movies alone there's nothing to distinguish between this and other racers to a lowly grunt like me.
1) What's so good about the visuals? The lighting seems weak, the reflections unconvincing, and the sceneries no different to any other racer with 2D cardboard cutout crowds. The framerate looks fine to me but I can't see what wonderful benefit this has for the visuals.
2) How great are the collision physics going to be when the collisions appear to be bounding box based? There's a movie of a car (yellow Elise I think) travelling through a night city scene, being banged into. The collision thump sounds are very audible when the car to the player's side crunches into it's tail, but there is clear, visible space between the cars, and the effect on the racer seems non existent. Considering the players obvious lack of ability given their frequent crashing out at corners, getting thrown by a thump in the back should have at least shown a wobble.
Going by the movies alone there's nothing to distinguish between this and other racers to a lowly grunt like me.
DeathKnight
Regular
Then maybe you need to stop watching videos and actually PLAY the game.
That ain't gonna happen! Don't own an XB, don't know anyone who owns an XB. Just sayin that those tooting one game is better visually than the other...well, I can't see their point. I tried some IGN GT4 movies too. The cars look better, the scenery looks simpler. Really not a lot in it. As GT4's supposedly got a true to life physics model the gameplay can't be much different either is Forza's is also up to snuff, so there ain't a lot to choose between titles it would seem.
DeathKnight
Regular
Turn off the assists 
randycat99
Veteran
I'm guessing there is only one "correct" kind of review wrt this game, or you are doing it wrong?
doing what wrong? im not saying the reviews are wrong. im just saying it aint as real as most claim it to be. sure its a sim when you put it up against games like NFSU or BO3. the physics just dont seem as "real" as GT4s. its a bit more forgiving. im sure the developers even stated something bout having to "dumb" it down a bit for the gamers. but anyways the game is very good.
All right, everybody... COMPARISON TIME!
Not only have I now played Forza, but I brought out three other games – Gran Turismo 4, Project Gotham Racing 2, and Apex – for a head-to-head-to-head-to-head comparison.
All I can say is, Jesus Christ! I’m glad I rented this and played it for myself instead of buying into all the hype and purchasing the game based on other people’s opinions.
Keep in mind, my play time has been extremely limited. I’ve literally only raced a dozen races, but I feel satisfied it’s enough to make some observations.
First, the good:
I love the driver’s guideline - very handy when learning a course. (Though someone at Microsoft should thank EA for the idea, as they’ve used it in their NASCAR games for years.)
I also like the damage modeling. A LOT. This surprised me, but kissing a wall and then seeing my car’s fender crumpled and the paint scratched was just really cool. Not only that, but the car handled very differently after the crash, pulling doggedly to the right as I accelerated down the track.
Forza also boasts a larger field of competitors than GT4 – eight compared to six. And yes, the computer-controlled drivers seem a good deal smarter than those in Polyphony Digital’s game. (Someone ought to tell Kazunori Yamauchi that AI is NOT a steak sauce, hehe.) Forza’s drivers seem aware of themselves and each other, which leads to more realistic action in each race. I had to laugh at a couple of collisions which sent cars spinning every which way.
I like Microsoft’s decision to cull the car selection a bit; there’s not much crap in this roster.
Online play is a big feature. I hear it’s great, but didn't try it myself. I give kudos to the team for implementing it in a marquee racing game.
Now for my criticisms.
First, the frame rate. YES, for the love of God, it IS an issue. I fired up the game and when it finally started moving (the load times seemed significantly longer than those of GT4, PGR2, and Apex), I actually laughed out loud. The first several races in Forza felt like I was plowing through molasses. I don’t know if things get faster from there, but I certainly hope so.
I find it interesting that PGR2 and Apex both FEEL faster than Forza, despite the fact that they too are running at 30fps.
GT4 mops the floor with all of them. I don’t need to tell you that it’s running twice as fast as the other three games.
OK, so how do the cars handle? To me, the actual racing in Forza is not as satisfying as Gran Turismo or PGR2, although poor Apex gets beaten to a pulp here. I’ll give you an example: In GT4, when you slam on the brakes, your car’s bonnet dips realistically. You can FEEL the car’s weight shifting forward. In Forza, the bonnet dips, but not as much. It just doesn’t feel as realistic, and again, the sense of speed (at least from what I’ve seen so far) leaves something to be desired.
I liked the effect Forza’s handbrake has on the cars. Lets you slide around corners a little easier than GT, I think. Is this realistic? I don't know. I don't slide around corners like that very often in real life.
Overall, the physics model seems comparable to GT4, but I'd have to play a bit more before I could offer you more specific pros and cons.
I will say again that GT4's racing just feels more fluid thanks to the 60fps refresh.
Visually, Forza is very pretty, but in a flat, washed-out sort of way. The cars look all right, but the environs remind me of watercolor paintings; even the blue sky looked to me like a flat, painted wall.
PGR2 suffers from the same peculiarity, though I think Forza’s environments pack a lot more detail. Apex knocks all those other games back on their heels. Not only are the environs in that game filled with gorgeous detail and moving parts like balloons and planes, but every scene just looks so vivid and vibrant. It’s beautiful, and far more pleasing to the eye.
I think in general, Forza’s racetracks DO look more like real-world locales than GT4 – Laguna Beach being a great example. In Forza, it looked like I was there, albeit in that weird, “I’m-in-a-watercolor-painting†sort of way. GT4’s Laguna Beach lacks much of the environmental detail and that dreaded PS2 shimmering ensures you never forget you’re playing a video game. Though the partly cloudy blue sky looked very convincing.
I also compared Forza and GT4 head to head on their New York courses by parking my cars in front of the big monitor in Times Square and switching back and forth between systems via video switcher. Again, Forza’s flat-looking environs were loaded with detail. I especially liked the realistic look of all the lighted signs and monitors.
GT4 surprised me because its New York appeared to have more depth and a grittier, more photorealistic look overall. I think the designers’ use of colors and shadow works really well here.
I have to agree with others who’ve said that GT4’s cars look better. They are. They practically pop off the screen with a photorealism so far unmatched by any other racer I’ve seen.
For all the talk of Forza’s realistic engine sounds, I didn’t hear it. In fact, the game sounded rather muffled in comparison to GT4 and PGR2 (I remember liking the engine noises in that game very much), though the engine sounds in Apex somehow remind me of wasps buzzing in a jar.
And no, I don’t have the world’s best audio setup, but my Dolby ProLogic surround system puts out some very nice sound anyway. By the way, I conducted these little tests on a 36†Sony WEGA – no HDTV here.
I haven’t dug into the career mode deep enough to offer any opinions on this core aspect of the game, but the “choose your region†idea seems interesting.
And that does it for my early impressions of Forza.
To those of you who have the game and like it, congratulations. Enjoy it. For those of you who don’t have the game and aren’t sure whether to buy it, do yourself a favor and rent first. I wasn’t awe-struck by the game, but that doesn’t mean you won’t be.
Not only have I now played Forza, but I brought out three other games – Gran Turismo 4, Project Gotham Racing 2, and Apex – for a head-to-head-to-head-to-head comparison.
All I can say is, Jesus Christ! I’m glad I rented this and played it for myself instead of buying into all the hype and purchasing the game based on other people’s opinions.
Keep in mind, my play time has been extremely limited. I’ve literally only raced a dozen races, but I feel satisfied it’s enough to make some observations.
First, the good:
I love the driver’s guideline - very handy when learning a course. (Though someone at Microsoft should thank EA for the idea, as they’ve used it in their NASCAR games for years.)
I also like the damage modeling. A LOT. This surprised me, but kissing a wall and then seeing my car’s fender crumpled and the paint scratched was just really cool. Not only that, but the car handled very differently after the crash, pulling doggedly to the right as I accelerated down the track.
Forza also boasts a larger field of competitors than GT4 – eight compared to six. And yes, the computer-controlled drivers seem a good deal smarter than those in Polyphony Digital’s game. (Someone ought to tell Kazunori Yamauchi that AI is NOT a steak sauce, hehe.) Forza’s drivers seem aware of themselves and each other, which leads to more realistic action in each race. I had to laugh at a couple of collisions which sent cars spinning every which way.
I like Microsoft’s decision to cull the car selection a bit; there’s not much crap in this roster.
Online play is a big feature. I hear it’s great, but didn't try it myself. I give kudos to the team for implementing it in a marquee racing game.
Now for my criticisms.
First, the frame rate. YES, for the love of God, it IS an issue. I fired up the game and when it finally started moving (the load times seemed significantly longer than those of GT4, PGR2, and Apex), I actually laughed out loud. The first several races in Forza felt like I was plowing through molasses. I don’t know if things get faster from there, but I certainly hope so.
I find it interesting that PGR2 and Apex both FEEL faster than Forza, despite the fact that they too are running at 30fps.
GT4 mops the floor with all of them. I don’t need to tell you that it’s running twice as fast as the other three games.
OK, so how do the cars handle? To me, the actual racing in Forza is not as satisfying as Gran Turismo or PGR2, although poor Apex gets beaten to a pulp here. I’ll give you an example: In GT4, when you slam on the brakes, your car’s bonnet dips realistically. You can FEEL the car’s weight shifting forward. In Forza, the bonnet dips, but not as much. It just doesn’t feel as realistic, and again, the sense of speed (at least from what I’ve seen so far) leaves something to be desired.
I liked the effect Forza’s handbrake has on the cars. Lets you slide around corners a little easier than GT, I think. Is this realistic? I don't know. I don't slide around corners like that very often in real life.
Overall, the physics model seems comparable to GT4, but I'd have to play a bit more before I could offer you more specific pros and cons.
I will say again that GT4's racing just feels more fluid thanks to the 60fps refresh.
Visually, Forza is very pretty, but in a flat, washed-out sort of way. The cars look all right, but the environs remind me of watercolor paintings; even the blue sky looked to me like a flat, painted wall.
PGR2 suffers from the same peculiarity, though I think Forza’s environments pack a lot more detail. Apex knocks all those other games back on their heels. Not only are the environs in that game filled with gorgeous detail and moving parts like balloons and planes, but every scene just looks so vivid and vibrant. It’s beautiful, and far more pleasing to the eye.
I think in general, Forza’s racetracks DO look more like real-world locales than GT4 – Laguna Beach being a great example. In Forza, it looked like I was there, albeit in that weird, “I’m-in-a-watercolor-painting†sort of way. GT4’s Laguna Beach lacks much of the environmental detail and that dreaded PS2 shimmering ensures you never forget you’re playing a video game. Though the partly cloudy blue sky looked very convincing.
I also compared Forza and GT4 head to head on their New York courses by parking my cars in front of the big monitor in Times Square and switching back and forth between systems via video switcher. Again, Forza’s flat-looking environs were loaded with detail. I especially liked the realistic look of all the lighted signs and monitors.
GT4 surprised me because its New York appeared to have more depth and a grittier, more photorealistic look overall. I think the designers’ use of colors and shadow works really well here.
I have to agree with others who’ve said that GT4’s cars look better. They are. They practically pop off the screen with a photorealism so far unmatched by any other racer I’ve seen.
For all the talk of Forza’s realistic engine sounds, I didn’t hear it. In fact, the game sounded rather muffled in comparison to GT4 and PGR2 (I remember liking the engine noises in that game very much), though the engine sounds in Apex somehow remind me of wasps buzzing in a jar.
And no, I don’t have the world’s best audio setup, but my Dolby ProLogic surround system puts out some very nice sound anyway. By the way, I conducted these little tests on a 36†Sony WEGA – no HDTV here.
I haven’t dug into the career mode deep enough to offer any opinions on this core aspect of the game, but the “choose your region†idea seems interesting.
And that does it for my early impressions of Forza.
To those of you who have the game and like it, congratulations. Enjoy it. For those of you who don’t have the game and aren’t sure whether to buy it, do yourself a favor and rent first. I wasn’t awe-struck by the game, but that doesn’t mean you won’t be.
randycat99
Veteran
Kill_Jade said:
Easy there, fella! I wasn't criticizing you, at all. Rather, I was trying to suggest that potentially any negative reviews posted here will not be taken seriously for myraid reasons (none of which are you to be faulted for)- hence, if you found something awry, the immediate excuse will be that you did something wrong. See what I'm getting at?
How fast a game "feels" isn't down to frame rate btw. For a given game speed (same cars on the same tracks) the differentiating factor is likely to be the camera. Field of vision and height from the ground are two big factors (particularly the former) and camera tricks like a fish eye lense effect can make quite a difference too.
randycat99 said:Kill_Jade said:
Easy there, fella! I wasn't criticizing you, at all. Rather, I was trying to suggest that potentially any negative reviews posted here will not be taken seriously for myraid reasons (none of which are you to be faulted for)- hence, if you found something awry, the immediate excuse will be that you did something wrong. See what I'm getting at?
oh ok i see what you meant. my bad
Kolgar said:
It actually isn't [that easy to use handbrakes to slide around corners] - although it does depend a lot on the grip on the tires and the road surface. It's actually quite easy when you have enough speed (more force) and slipery conditions, but using handbrakes for *forced powerslides* isn't really how you *should* drive nor how you would try to maximize your laptimes. Note that I do occasionally pull the handbrake for a bit of fun here and there when driving.
In fact, some cars will powerslide (oversteer) if you just have them going quick enough around the corner to the point that you loose the grip and the car starts sliding without using a handbrake. If it's realistic in Forza... dunno, can't really say before actually playing it and it would depend on the car as well as much as the driving surface.... I find that it's quite spot on in GT4 though - not overdone, but still *there* when you do it and once it comes, the car will spin out quite quick if you're too slow to catch it and countersteer (which is very difficult, because the braking force and the shifting of the weight of the car to the front + the lost grip on rear tires will make your car turn quick if you have your front wheels pointing anywhere but straight ahead).I'm not quite sure under which conditions you've played GT4, but if you've been doing your comparasments in "simulation" mode, take note that per default, driving aids are switched on for each car. To change them, you'll have to enter "settings" before the race and find the option for driving aids which where you can disable ABS, TCS etc by setting the value to 0.
I'm not sure if I'll get a chance to test Forza as detailed myself, but one of the tests I would conduct is Nurburgring using perhaps something like a Lotus Elise which will give you some good amount of oversteer here and there. The Elise 111R at default settings isn't particularly easy to drive either as especially on the 'Ring, you'll find weight shifts to occur quite frequently as you drive over bumps and take corners at high speed. It's then when you'll notice how bloddy demanding the Nurburgring is... not because it's narrow, not because of the sheer length - it's those bloddy bumps that make it extremely difficult to keep your speed high and the car under control.
PS: I also think it visually captures the Nurburgring very well.
Phil said:
Yeah, yesterday I watched a split-screen video of a guy driving the ring in real life and a guy driving it with the steering wheel on GT4.
It was amazing! The game mimicked the actual course with breathtaking fidelity. Turn for turn, bump for bump. Even some of the trees looked alike.
I don't know if that was real, but it was god-damned impressive.