Forza: The new simluation king? :D

[Kolgar]

I hate to bail on this thread, but, erm, I'm gonna bail now.

Which game is teh R3A|_ R4c1ng $im|_|l4t0r? Whichever one you prefer after a playtest, I suppose.

They're both fabulous games. Fantastic digital representations of driving. But at the end of the day, they're just relatively simple games played on aging hardware that's about to become yesterday's news.

I'm not sure there IS a clear winner for the racing simulation crown. Do you want a "real-car" feel? Me, I prefer GT4. Want car damage? Gotta go Forza. I think both games have taken great pains to simulate real-life driving, and they're both enjoyable - but both have their faults, too.

They're both remarkable accompishments. Play them and have fun. Me, I'll see you again for more of the same with GT5/Forza 2.

 

[DeathKnight]

They're both remarkable accompishments. Play them and have fun. Me, I'll see you again for more of the same with GT5/Forza 2.

I can certainly agree with you on this one

 

[Iron Tiger]

Since it's pretty pointless to argue art direction we'll list the technical graphics aspects.

Forza:

30fps
no shimmering
loads of trackside detail
realtime shadows
bumpmapping?

GT4:

60fps
shimmering
low trackside detail
fake shadows
no bumpmapping

Now which one has better graphics?

I think someone is trying too hard to downplay Forza and focusing too much on GT4 small advantages while ignoring the big picture. I'm sorry but there's a new king in town and he's just kick the old king's @ss to the curb...get it? driving? curb?

A checklist of features is really indicative of which product looks better. If we look at all the features of the Source engine next to all the features of Doom 3 engine and the Cry Engine, Cry Engine would be inarguably the "prettiest". Yet people are still able to debate the issue because the implementation of effects and the artistic abilities of the teams dictate what the games look like, not the checklist of features. Everglade Rush is heavy on the bumpmapping, but nobody with unimpaired vision would argue that it's a
better looking racing game than GT4.

Get real dude. A lot of people depend on reviews nowadays from games, to tvs, to whatever. Reviews help people narrow down their choices without having to test every damn product out there. Before I purchased my MP3 player I didn't do any that renting, borrowing, blind purchasing. I read reviews on the net, and narrowed it down to players that had top reviews.

I depended on review scores when I bought Halo 2. In the end I was stuck with a crappy game that fell far below my expectations. I've since learned to read the full text of reviews, and read the implied negative points that the reviewers are sometimes afraid to spell out. Going back to those Halo 2 reviews, they pretty much warned me that I wouldn't be satisfied with the game, and I failed to see that beforehand.

I thought I'd try to give Forza a fair shake and play the demo again to see if the framerate bugged me as much as I'd remembered. It did. I'm not saying it's choppy, but it's far from the buttery smoothness of GT3 and GT4. Forza in 480p looks like most any other driving game, but with a liberal application of effects and overuse of color. GT4 looks like something else entirely. Other than GT3, there's no racing games or sims that look like GT4 (except maybe Enthusia, which I've yet to play). People complain about the pixel shimmering of GT3 and GT4, but I gotta say I prefer it along with its causative sharpness, to the blurriness of Forza. I play all my PC games with 16x AF, so coming to the console and seeing everything blurred to hell is quite noticeable and annoying. Moreso to me than pixel shimmer. I should note that I'm playing GT4 in 1080i mode, so those shimmering pixels are smaller than Forza's blurry ones.

Forza has more polygonal detail in the cars, but I don't care for the lighting, so the cars don't really stand out. Forza's stuttery reflections aren't that big a deal when driving, because you don't notice them on yours or other cars from the in-car view, which is what I play in. GT4's palettized textures are ugly, but I only notice them in replays. Forza's spectators pop-up in the distance, at about the same point where the higher LOD textures swap in. GT4's spectator's aren't incredibly detailed, but when you have thousands of them on some of the rally tracks, with a good lot being animated, it's hard to not be impressed.

I realize comparing the Forza demo to the retail GT4 isn't especially fair, but I know my biggest gripe with the demo wasn't resolved in the final game, so it's fair enough for my purposes.

 

[PC-Engine]

Yes that's why I said art direction is subjective and removed it from that checklist. The point is to show how pointless it really is to claim one is better than the other in the graphics department even after removing art direction from the equation...

 

[DemoCoder]

Can we stick to apples-to-apples, here? The HDTV is going to process/scale/blend the input signal to match the native resolution of the device, anyway. So right there, you have an "extra layer" of processing that has to do with the specific TV you bought, rather than what the game outputs.

a) not true if you have a CRT HDTV or your native res matches output
b) no non-braindamaged HDTV scaler is going to blur up textures or introduce aliasing where there was none

Let's face facts, the PS/2 can't compete with the X-Box on texture resolution or AA, nor for that matter, 720p or 1080i output.

 

[PC-Engine]

Some in-game framebuffer grabs for those interested.

 

[Phil]

oh it's a really nice game, no doubt.

PC-Engine, without wanting to get into another discussion (which was just for amusement sake on my side, I just wanted to say that I never argued that the graphics of one is better than the other - I merely brought forward different parts of the review to show that the sources you used that were claiming something to your advantage (great physics) also claimed that the graphics were behind those of GT4. IMO it's pointless proclaiming game q to look better on x platform opposed to game r on platform y. IMO, I do prefer the grittier more realistic art-direction of GT4 and I'll take that shimmering into account knowing that the framerate is where I want it to be.

As for Forza - I wanted to play it yesterday but unfortunately didn't get a chance to. In a way, I'm more disappointed in the fact that Forza to me is unsatisfying to me. Gran Turismo 4 has some quirks that I really could see improved but aren't - which is why I would take a game that is better in the factors I see important any day. I'm fairly confident though that it's not Forza due to framerate as already discussed - maybe Konami's Enthusia will be my new benchmark?

 

[PC-Engine]

Yes I understand your point and point taken, however, like I said if the majority of reviews says game A has better graphics than game B, then that's most likely the case. That IGN review says GT4 has better graphics than Forza taking art direction into account and that's probably why they said the graphics is better than Forza. Bringing it up wasn't needed in the first place since I also agreed it was pointless.

Anyway, I'd also like to mention Forza's 5.1 channel sound which also adds tremendously to the simulation aspect of things. For once you can actually hear another car coming up behind you as well as see them in the mirror. I find that pretty impressive. Then you have the small details like actual driver models inside the cockpit, damaged car parts that stay on the track, skidmarks etc. Then there's the customiztion aspect of Forza with the body kits, decals etc. a very welcome feature too especially when playing online ie you have your own customize vehicle. The the Drivatar feature, damage physics, etc. Forza has an excellent overall simulation package and I applaud MS for making it possible. As far as Konami's Enthusia, the reviews don't seem to be all that great...yes I said it again...gasp.

 

[randycat99]

Can we stick to apples-to-apples, here? The HDTV is going to process/scale/blend the input signal to match the native resolution of the device, anyway. So right there, you have an "extra layer" of processing that has to do with the specific TV you bought, rather than what the game outputs.

a) not true if you have a CRT HDTV or your native res matches output

If it is native for one setting, it won't be for the other. One way or the other, you won't escape the "contribution" of the scaler.

b) no non-braindamaged HDTV scaler is going to blur up textures or introduce aliasing where there was none

Don't be so sure (more so, the blurring bit). Scalers have a tough job taking something that was intended to look good on a 20" screen and still making it look good on a 40/50/60" screen. It's not impossible to find any sort of artifact you can imagine when you are doing this degree of processing.

Let's face facts, the PS/2 can't compete with the X-Box on texture resolution or AA, nor for that matter, 720p or 1080i output.

Maybe, maybe not, but that is really beyond the scope of this topic.

 

[PC-Engine]

 

[Acert93]

Let me preface this by this: I bought a PS for GT. My friend had a PS but I was happy with my N64 and PC... until GT came out. I enjoyed GT and GT a lot.

That said, I am not sure about the rabid GT defense. It is a GREAT racer, but obviously Forza does some things better.

1. Cars take damage
2. Forza seems to have better AI
3. Forza does not allow the "bumper car" tactic that GT so unrealistically allows
4. Forza not only has online, but some pretty kick butt online

I like the GT look better. The Xbox tends to have more cartoonish looking graphics at times (I have heard this is related to the nVidia GPUs rendering pipeline color depth limitations). Forza looks good, but GT looks more "realistic" for my taste. GT also runs at a higher frame rate--a big plus for SOME. I like high framerates, but 30fps is playable for a console game. I find that 30fps tends to be better on a TV/console than on a PC, but that is my own experience.

I also think the statements about GT being more realistic are overplayed. How many here have raced professionally? Exactly. Forza and GT are different. Just because one is harder or has a different feel does not make it better. Just different.

While GT is a great similator, I see no reason to defend it the way I have seen here. To knock Forza for its weak points and extol GT is to clearly overlook GLARING weaknesses in GT. Lets just bounce off walls and see our cars take no damage... in that regards GT is a weak sim. I see real weaknesses in both products from a true "sim" standpoint and yet both have a lot of strengths.

Like I said, I am a GT fan. But I see no reason for the usual suspects to bash Forza and to extol GT less the fact Forza is an Xbox product and GT is a Sony product. On the give or take I would put it on par with GT in sim elements. The fact GT ignored short comings from GT3 was pretty sad. Weak AI and bumper cars (making a turn and getting on the inside of a car) is so unrealistic in GT it makes me roll the old eyes when I hear how great GT is a great simulator. Great game and a good sim--but definately short comings. Where Forza seems to outpace GT is in online and AI. In this respect Forza is a better game IMO, but that has more to do with my tastes (I play games to play, not just unlock cars and see how they run on a course... I want to see how those cars handle in competition).

While GT has a lot of cars, I am not the "collect 700 cars" type. I want good gameplay and to play with other people. In this regards I think Forza is better for me. For the person who just wants to do time trials by themselves and test out 700 cars then GT is better. BOTH ARE GREAT GAMES. I have nothing against either--I am surprised Forza is so good. And the solid AI and online is better for _gamers_ in my opinion. While GT will obviously get an edge to car freaks (I say that with all due respect!), I think when it comes to playing online play and strong AI are vital parts of a _game_. But it is nice to see that both games broaden the gaming market; and not to mention GTs AI is not horrid, just like Forzas car selection (200ish cars) is not bad either. They each have some great strengths. GREAT TIME TO BE A SIM DRIVING FAN!

For those judging either game, Forza or GT, without playing them grow up. Making judgements from the washed out online videos do the games no justice. And argueing over which is more accurate sim is a tenuous debate at best. My experience is games that feel more "real" tend to be exaggerated.

Ps- For the post that was claiming bias against GT4 because it got a lower score from a mag than GT3, I think the reason is easy: GT3 was leap and bounds ahead of anything at that time. Car games have improved a lot since GT3, so the relative measuring stick has been raised. GT4 not only had to be much better than GT3, but also better than the competition. I think it was when released, but GT4 did not resolve some known issues AND left out some important new features, namely online play. Weak AI is easier to overlook when there is online play. In this regards when a game is released 3 years later and is missing some core features compared to the competition I can agree with it getting a lower score compared to a previous version. But that is just my opinion on game ranking. Every game reviewer/magazine are different. But when I used to review games I would take the current competition into consideration and would weigh that significantly because those are the products actively competing for the purchasers money. Regardless if it is better than the previous version, if the competition has raised the bar significantly and/or the sequal has not progressed as much then it may not get as favorable review even if it is better. But that was just me.

 

[-tkf-]

IGN review says GT4 has better graphics than Forza

And so does gamespy's review.

So do you trust the rest of their review, they are afterall postitive about Forza, i gather you don't

You can post all the screenshots you want, but if you setup the two games next to each other which one do you think people would ususally mistake for a "real" tv transmission, yes your guess i correct, Grand Turismo 4.

 

[randycat99]

[here's a poor hapless soul scream in frustration, not unlike a freshly, one-handed Luke Skywalker on a, ahem, skywalk...] NOOOOOOOO-ooooo-OOOOO-oooooo!!!

 

[PC-Engine]

IGN review says GT4 has better graphics than Forza

And so does gamespy's review.

So do you trust the rest of their review, they are afterall postitive about Forza, i gather you don't

You can post all the screenshots you want, but if you setup the two games next to each other which one do you think people would ususally mistake for a "real" tv transmission, yes your guess i correct, Grand Turismo 4.

I'm afraid you're just not getting it Mr. -tkf-.....

 

[London Geezer]

I'm afraid you're just not getting it Mr. -tkf-.....

Do you ever stop thinking that maybe... Just maybe... It is you who's not getting it?
Simple question.

 

[PC-Engine]

I'm afraid you're just not getting it Mr. -tkf-.....

Do you ever stop thinking that maybe... Just maybe... It is you who's not getting it?
Simple question.

Look man I wasn't addressing you not to mention your post only has one purpose and that's to get threads locked. I'm going to ignore your obsessive stalking and and replies. I'm interested in what -tkf- has to say since it's obvious he hasn't been reading the previous few pages which explains clearly why his post is redundant.

 

[London Geezer]

Look man I wasn't addressing you not to mention your post only has one purpose and that's to get threads locked. I'm going to ignore your obsessive stalking and and replies. I'm interested in what -tkf- has to say since it's obvious he hasn't been reading the previous few pages which explains clearly why his post is redundant.

Stalking?
You still haven't answered the question, which is more than pertinent to the already derailed thread.

 

[PC-Engine]

Look man I wasn't addressing you not to mention your post only has one purpose and that's to get threads locked. I'm going to ignore your obsessive stalking and and replies. I'm interested in what -tkf- has to say since it's obvious he hasn't been reading the previous few pages which explains clearly why his post is redundant.

Stalking?
You still haven't answered the question, which is more than pertinent to the already derailed thread.

Well if you can explain why -tkf-'s post has relevence, then maybe I wouldn't have to answer your question since it will be naturally be clear who doesn't get what.

 

[Mortimer]

THE Simulation king of all racing sims for me is still Viper Racing in PC. It has the best damage modelling, ABSOLUTELY waywayway.... better AI than any other racing game ever and I doubt there will be any better soon. People just don't buy racing games for AI.

What was so good about the AI in that game?
Well, for starters the different AI drivers each drove differently. You could say they had personalities that showed up in their driving.

Also the feeling from a good ff-wheel after patch 1.1 was really good.

Now, when someone makes a better racing sim for any platform, then color me impressed. I'll by the platform and game.

 

[Neeyik]

This is a open request to PC-Engine and London-boy: take your "personal discussions" to PMs please, now and for all such cases in the future. Please take this request seriously.