Forza: The new simluation king? :D

[PC-Engine]

I find it interesting that PGR2 and Apex both FEEL faster than Forza, despite the fact that they too are running at 30fps

A sidenote: APEX was running at 50/60 fps (PAL/NTSC) until an idiot decided that it needed antialiasing on all the time and AA was activated some days before the final gold submission AFAIK.
It was beatiful running a full frame rate, sorry for the rant

That has got to be the stupidest decision ever! Why not just add a menu option at boot time for turning AA on/off?

Just sayin that those tooting one game is better visually than the other...well, I can't see their point.

I agree and -tkf- should take note. Also where's the direct link to those quotes -tkf-? Or were you conveniently quoting a GT fan doing a Forza review?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

MetaCritics back online and has some more reviews for Forza. Here's the comparison of ratings from alike sources...

Review        |  Forza  |  GT4
Maxim         |   100   |  100
GameBiz       |   100   |   85
Gamepro       |   100   |   90
1UP           |   100   |   95
EGM           |    98   |   92
NextLevel     |    97   |   96
GameZone      |    95   |   97   
IGN           |    95   |   95
GameSpot      |    92   |   89
GameSpy       |    90   |   90
3DAvenue      |    90   |   90  
GamesDomain   |    90   |   90  
TVG           |    90   |   90  
Stuff         |    90   |   90  
DailyGame     |    89   |   93   
PALGN         |    85   |   75

So there you go. Conclusive proof that Forza is better than GT4 in most people's eyes. Or is it?

See, while looking through some reviews it became quite apparent that GT4 isn't a 'pure' review, but a comparative review regards GT3. The game is no worse than GT3, but doesn't add a great deal. As a buying guide, rating GT4 down implies 'if you've got GT3, it's not worth GT4', shown by GT3 getting higher scores. Lower scores 'penalize' Polyphony for not adding something more substantial to the game instead of just producing the SAME game once again.

So really, if GT3 didn't exist what would GT4's ratings be? GT3's plus a little more I imagine. Because Forza isn't a sequel (and fourth one at that) it's reviewed more as a standalone product. Of course it's compared to like games, but doesn't suffer the same penality as having older sibblings. If racing games did suffer such penalities, they'd ALL be rated low as they ALL just have the same cars driving gameplay

There's also different objectives in the reviewers. GameBiz said of GT4 when they gave it 85%

It may be a long full game, but other racing games on the market are faster and more action packed.

Action packed racers? Suggests they prefer a more arcadey game than a simulator. So when they give Forza 100% saying

You can sum up this game in two words, “Sheer Perfectionâ€￾.

this suggests to me Forza takes a drop in realism to add more action.

Of course, all these points can be argued til the cows come home (and currently the cows are sojourning in a tropical paradise and have no intention of coming home...) and that really brings us to the crux of this argument - using review scores as a basis to decided which of two games is the better is a BAD idea! It doesn't work.

Reading reviews gives an impression of what the reviewer thought, which helps decide if you think you'd like the game or not. Review scores give a good summation of general appeal. Looking for a new game, one that got a average score of 5/10 is not likely to amount to much, whereas one that got 9/10 is likely to be pretty good. To determine which of n number of games is the best, that all comes down to personal preference. You have to play the comparative games, then your opinion remains exactly that - your opinion.

The use of review scores is as inane as the use of tech-specs. Numbers are wielded like a 'BroadSword of +3 Propaganda' by the fanboys (and fangirls) who want to prove a point, whether 'this game's better than that' and 'this consoles better than that', and as is the way with statisitics you can invariable find SOME number to back up your argument.

No more can be said on the matter. For me, I will look at both games and decided for MYSELF which looks better. I won't have someone else tell me. If I ever play the games I will decided for MYSELF which I think plays better. I don't depend on someone else to make my mind up for me. I will use reviews for insight when making purchasing decisions. I'm looking at getting Guildwars. I check high scores to see it's of high quality overall. I've then read reviews, magazines and user reviews, to determine what the gameplay is like. That's when reviews and scores are useful. The only info I take home from these reviews scores for Forza ang GT4 is both games are very good games

 

[PC-Engine]

For me, I will look at both games and decided for MYSELF which looks better.

Anyway it's pretty obvious that we as individual gamers will have our own review, which is the most relevent in the end, but when 9 out of 10 gaming sites agree that B is better than A, that cannot be ignored either especially for people in the market who only wants to buy one racing game and cannot afford to rent them beforehand.

 

[Phil]

Anyway it's pretty obvious that we as individual gamers will have our own review, which is the most relevent in the end, but when 9 out of 10 gaming sites agree that B is better than A, that cannot be ignored either especially for people in the market who only wants to buy one racing game and cannot afford to rent them beforehand.

So we can conclude that GT4 is better in the graphics department because that's what most reviewers say!

And since none of the reviewers say that GT4 is inferior in immersion and in the physics department of how cars move, behave and feel compared to the real part compared to Forza, we can also conclude that you, PC-Engine, have once again been grasping at straws.


BTW; Isn't it ironic that despite your own belief, you are in the minority in this very thread, especially by two members that have played the game?

 

[_phil_]

Good boy.Every time i read a post by Chap ,i can't help but to hear the sound of Golum's voice,really weird indeed.

One of the first 3dfx game running my voodoo was motoracer ,i remember a 120 fps blast 8)

 

[PC-Engine]

So we can conclude that GT4 is better in the graphics department because that's what most reviewers say!

If 9 out of 10 reviews say GT4 has better graphics then GT4 most likely does have better graphics. The question is do the reviews say this?

And since none of the reviewers say that GT4 is inferior in immersion and in the physics department of how cars move, behave and feel compared to the real part compared to Forza, we can also conclude that you, PC-Engine, have once again been grasping at straws.

The reviews didn't mention the fact sh*t smells worse than roses either...your point?

BTW; Isn't it ironic that despite your own belief, you are in the minority in this very thread, especially by two members that have played the game?

It would be ironic if your argument actually made sense...for once.

The concept that I or any other member can claim to have played both and say Forza is better than GT4 or vice versa but having little significance must be terribly difficult for you to grasp.

Just give yourself a nice pat on the back and pretend you never brought that up as an argument.

 

[Phil]

Lets get back to the core argument here:

page 1[/url]]From what I have read Forza has a more complex physics model [than Gran Turismo 4].

page 6[/url]]Forza is a better driving simulation than GT4, let's just leave it at that.

Where did you read that?

PS: Accoarding to...

Every good simulation offers a different take on physics and handling. With a game that's as voluminous as Forza, you can bet your bottom dollar the range of cars offers a wide spectrum of cars that handle differently. What I can say about the physics is that they're consistently very good. The cars don't have the full level of tilt and sway you see in GT4, but the cars react very well. The simulation aspect of Forza might have been full tilt six months ago, but the final product feels far more playable, more balanced between realism and playability than in preview builds.

Strange and guess what, it's even from an xbox site/reviewer too Bear in mind that I have also checked other reviews as well with the result that most of them neither compare it to GT4 nor do they outrightly call the physics the end-of-be-all either. In fact, the reviews that I've read don't even mention phyiscs and car-related behaviour, except for mentioning that it's a simulator. Duh!

Also take care not to forget or ignore the fact that it's the above we ever argued. We never argued about AI, nor about damage - we talked about immersion (~framerate) and accuracy of tracks and how they simulate the cars behaviour. How real the cars feel. "Forza TEH SIMULATION KING!!!1"? I don't think so.

If 9 out of 10 reviews say GT4 has better graphics then GT4 most likely does have better graphics. The question is do the reviews say this?

Wait, you're telling us you haven't read them?

Forza is a good but not a great-looking game. Overall, Forza feels very polished in the courses, the menus, and in the overall production. The slick white menus are fast and the load times are generally pretty quick. The game is well organized, so using the interface is fun, not laborious. The intro movie is sweet looking, though it's not indicative of the in-game graphics.

The in-game graphics are also good, but not great. Compared to a number of racers, specifically GT4, Forza holds up pretty well, but direct comparisons to that lowly PS2 game (how dare I!) prove a little disappointing. First, the car models aren't as good. They're just not. The car models are again of high quality, but they're not terribly refined, they're often blocky and lack detail, and in some cases, they just don't bring out the beauty of that particular model (whether it's an RX7 or a GT Challenger). Again, they're respectable, just not brilliant.

You'll see real-time reflections in windows and in the shine of a car, but they look a little delayed, a little slow even, not entirely moving in real-time. You'll see decent particles, too, though nothing surprising.

The car textures fit in line with the models -- good but not great. The art style of the backgrounds and environments isn't very photorealistic or inspired either. There are some nice trees, some interesting forested areas, a bunch of static 2D sprite people -- and the streets of NY are easily the best looking parts of the game -- but besides that, none of there areas pop out and grab you. Nothing is gorgeous or stunning. It's all just good.

Forza can't compete on Sony's level when it comes to graphics, but in every other department it poses a serious challenge to the racing establishment.

Though every car receives plenty of attention and is immediately distinguishable, there's simply not the intangible wow factor that nearly everyone gets when looking at GT4. Make no mistake, this is a very good-looking game; it's just not top of the heap.

*flush* What did I just hear? I think PC-Engine's desperate yet all the more amusing attempts just got flushed down the toilet...

Thanks for the brilliant entertainment - we all truly love you.

 

[PC-Engine]

Actually a better simulation involves physics and AI which was what I said:

The world already knows that one of the biggest flaws in GT is the AI - yet as you put it, the emphasis was never put on that.

I brought it up because it's part of making a simulation real. Forza has both physics and AI categories met in that regard.

Of course you would quickly like to forget and sweep that under the carpet seeing how GT4 pales in comparison as far as AI is concerned.

Then I wrote:

Top automotive engineers teamed with experienced programmers to create an advanced physics engine for "Forza Motorsport" that simulates authentic car performance. Cars incur damage and wear, which affects performance. Advanced tire and suspension models respond to heat and pressure changes as well as weight transfer and aerodynamic load.

As far as graphics are concerned it can be split into two categories: art direction which is subjective and technical which is not.

Since it's pretty pointless to argue art direction we'll list the technical graphics aspects.

Forza:

30fps
no shimmering
loads of trackside detail
realtime shadows
bumpmapping?

GT4:

60fps
shimmering
low trackside detail
fake shadows
no bumpmapping

Now which one has better graphics?

I think someone is trying too hard to downplay Forza and focusing too much on GT4 small advantages while ignoring the big picture. I'm sorry but there's a new king in town and he's just kick the old king's @ss to the curb...get it? driving? curb?

 

[Qroach]

The car models in forza are clearly more detailed and realistic looking, but overall GT4 has more realistic lighitng. It certainly doesn't have more detailed/realistic looking car models.

 

[Phil]

Of course you would quickly like to forget and sweep that under the carpet seeing how GT4 pales in comparison as far as AI is concerned.

Pales in comparasment?

But when you race, say, Laguna Seca five or six times in a row because in the first 15 seconds you're getting knocked into a spin, you really do have to wonder. Is that programmed into the game to challenge me for upcoming online challenges? Is that realistic? Is it me getting in the way of the other cars? I know for a fact that I can drive a straight line out of the starting gate and still get bumped into a full spin, essentially ruining my run. I also know that in super sharp hairpin turns you will undoubtedly experience full-on multi-car collisions. I have also seen AI come from behind to knock me off my line and pass me up in the last lap.

Man, you want to say that again? Pales in comparasment? The AI in GT4 may be quite simple but it at least doesn't pull stunts like this. As long as you don't actually try to see how AI reacts but race as you would on such a race circuit, you'll actually notice that it can be quite competitive and that the AI has a quick pace. At this point, I'd call neither of them perfect but at least they stay out of my way in GT4.

As far as graphics are concerned it can be split into two categories: art direction which is subjective and technical which is not.

Nice try editing, but I'll let that one go through BTW; framerate isn't an art-direction. Get a grip man!

And as far as your list in concerned, haven't you learned a thing?

I'll requote you:

Anyway it's pretty obvious that we as individual gamers will have our own review, which is the most relevent in the end, but when 9 out of 10 gaming sites agree that B is better than A, that cannot be ignored either especially for people in the market who only wants to buy one racing game and cannot afford to rent them beforehand.

Shall we requote what members here as well as respected sites have quoted above? Least not forget, even XBOX-IGN is saying the graphics in GT4 are better:

The in-game graphics are also good, but not great. Compared to a number of racers, specifically GT4, Forza holds up pretty well, but direct comparisons to that lowly PS2 game (how dare I!) prove a little disappointing. First, the car models aren't as good. They're just not. The car models are again of high quality, but they're not terribly refined, they're often blocky and lack detail, and in some cases, they just don't bring out the beauty of that particular model (whether it's an RX7 or a GT Challenger). Again, they're respectable, just not brilliant.

You'll see real-time reflections in windows and in the shine of a car, but they look a little delayed, a little slow even, not entirely moving in real-time. You'll see decent particles, too, though nothing surprising.

The car textures fit in line with the models -- good but not great. The art style of the backgrounds and environments isn't very photorealistic or inspired either. There are some nice trees, some interesting forested areas, a bunch of static 2D sprite people -- and the streets of NY are easily the best looking parts of the game -- but besides that, none of there areas pop out and grab you. Nothing is gorgeous or stunning. It's all just good.

and guess what, that's even ignoring the fact that GT4, heaven-forbit, manages to look better at double the framerate.

I think someone is trying too hard to back-pedal here.




chap: *hint* I'm only emphasizing reviews because PC-Engine puts so much of weight in them. Reviewers for all I care are opinions by people like us and are in no way inferior to say, the opinion of a member (Kolgar) here who posted some inside on the games he just purchased.

Qroach: The car models aren't more detailled. Go back and check screens or whatever you may wish. People in this very thread who have the game disagree with your opinion. C'est la vie, mate.

 

[cthellis42]

Frankly, I think everyone should just give Shifty Geezer a round of applause and let this thread die a needed death.

...or is everyone just gearing up for all the bitch-sessions to come out after the pre- and post-E3 revelations?

 

[PC-Engine]

I think we should post some screenshots just for sh*ts and giggles.

I'll start.

 

[Kill_Jade]

why dont you play the game instead of posting screens? GT is the better of the two in terms of visuals. heck i can post GT screens that null the point your trying to make.

 

[Phil]

Heh, seriously, I think there's not much point in arguing this further: The title of this topic is "Forza: The new simulation king?"

I as have many other stated why this in our opinion isn't the case. It might be the more enjoyable game in total, it might have the technically complexer AI as well as great Online play - but it lacks a few factors to be any simulation king:

- framerate and along with that immersion into the game as explained by various members further above and a few pages back

- the actual physics of the car might be good compared to what Xbox has to offer, but as far as members here and credible reviewes seem to suggest, it isn't as demanding as GT4

- the tracks might be nicely modeled and designed to their real life counterpart, but they do seem to lack the detail on road surface (bumps etc). -> Kolgar, please confirm?

- lack of a proper wheel with force-feedback pro


On the other hand, Forza has a damage model that seems to work quite well - though unfortunately it's not as dynamic and harsh as a "real simulator" would require it to be. The cars don't break, but simply handle worse and handicaped. This in itself makes the damage *trumphcard* a little one. It's a very nice plus though.

It also has more complex AI which is a great thing and I'm quite sure it is better than the one in GT4, although the latter one is only really exposed once you go and look for faults. The AI works well if you're concentrating to do your thing and enjoy what the game is about. While doing that, they at least stay quite competitive depending on the races/class. In the end though, I'll give the edge to Forza.


PS: PC-Engine, I know your getting desperate, but instead of posting nice pics (I could post nice GT4 pics too) which prove absolutely nothing (btw; IGN's media are better indication on how off the models are artistically). We've already argued the main points on simulation - there's no need to look for other reasons. While you're at it, why don't you consider how much better GT4 would look had the teams targeted a 30 Hz framerate. God heavens they didn't though, with quite stunning results none-the-less.

 

[PC-Engine]

Pales in comparasment?

Yes:

This magnificent bit of AI is an enhanced training model and ally, and combined with the online play, it renders most comparisons to Sony's series moot.

Here, AI isn't brilliant, but will dodge and corner with full knowledge that their cars can be damaged. The pinball overtaking that works in GT won't fly here, because the physics and AI won't allow it. For several pro circuit laps, I played cat and mouse with one CPU driver who desperately wanted to pass but wouldn't actually bump into me. Other adversaries are less cautious, but in tougher races the rank and file was routinely smart.

Man, you want to say that again? Pales in comparasment? The AI in GT4 may be quite simple but it at least doesn't pull stunts like this. As long as you don't actually try to see how AI reacts but race as you would on such a race circuit, you'll actually notice that it can be quite competitive and that the AI has a quick pace. At this point, I'd call neither of them perfect but at least they stay out of my way in GT4.

Read above.

BTW; framerate isn't an art-direction. Get a grip man!

Of course it isn't that's why I've listed it in the comparison.

And as far as your list in concerned, haven't you learned a thing?

The list is for you to decide which has better graphics from a non artistic POV. It's to show how pointless it is to say one is better than the other.

I'm only emphasizing reviews because PC-Engine puts so much of weight in them. Reviewers for all I care are opinions by people like us and are in no way inferior to say, the opinion of a member (Kolgar) here who posted some inside on the games he just purchased.

Haha you have one example mulitplied it by 9 then ignoring chap's posts. Who'd backpedaling?

BTW the screenshots is for sh*ts and giggles. It was to entertain your graphics argument which you brought up because that's the only thing you can hang on to. I already said graphics comparisons were pointless to begin with that's why I didn't talk about it until -tkf- mentioned it.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

For the love of god I don't understand how anyone can say GT4 looks better than Forza, and I'm playing it at 1080i (eventhough it's not real 1080i it does look much better than 480p). Does anybody else has access to those IGN insider videos in which both games are shown simultaneously?. Look at the trees! for example and all the trackside detail. Well in the end it doesn't really matter.

 

[PC-Engine]

For the love of god I don't understand how anyone can say GT4 looks better than Forza, and I'm playing it at 1080i (eventhough it's not real 1080i it does look much better than 480p). Does anybody else has access to those IGN insider videos in which both games are shown simultaneously?. Look at the trees! for example and all the trackside detail. Well in the end it doesn't really matter.

Some people like to delude themselves because they're scared sh*tless that their beloved GT Series has been beat in more than a few categories.

I'd like to see some GT4 screenshots btw. Go ahead Phil post them, best you could find, I dare ya.

 

[Phil]

Haha you have one example mulitplied it by 9 then ignoring chap's posts. Who'd backpedaling?

What, you mean chap's post that included to sniplets from 2 sites I don't even frequent? Or were you refering to the two opinions by people outthere that for all I care were grabed by the marketing hype?

In case you're too stupid to notice, I only played your "review game" as you put so much faith behind them to support your argument when you could, but would dismiss them on all the other points that you didn't argee with. It's good to see your own form of "proof" backstabbing you though - very entertaining.

BTW the screenshots is for sh*ts and giggles. It was to entertain your graphics argument which you brought up because that's the only thing you can hang on to. I already said graphics comparisons were pointless to begin with that's why I didn't talk about it until -tkf- mentioned it.

THe thing is, I never claimed GT4 looked better. I linked to reviews that claimed that. In fact, articles you seemed so obsessed about in thinking they supported your claims when in fact they didn't. I could care less which one looks better as my choice of game runs at the framerate I set as a requirement and seems the all the more realistic one in the areas which I've already listed multiple times throughout most of my posts.

I'd like to see some GT4 screenshots btw. Go ahead Phil post them, best you could find, I dare ya.

Why? I'm not the one trying to convince anyone. Why don't you post them on the Xbox IGN board in reply to the guy that wrote the review. I'm sure they'll just love you there.

For the love of god I don't understand how anyone can say GT4 looks better than Forza, and I'm playing it at 1080i (eventhough it's not real 1080i it does look much better than 480p). Does anybody else has access to those IGN insider videos in which both games are shown simultaneously?. Look at the trees! for example and all the trackside detail. Well in the end it doesn't really matter.

Oh, go argue with the folks at Xbox.ign.com. How dare they claim that! On the other hand, it's comparing applies to oranges anyway as one runs at double the framerate - so in the end it's quite subjective anyway. I do think GT captures the settings much more realistic thanks to better use of colors and art-direction. Cars also look much more real from what I've seen in movies and screens (real screens). I will hold back on this though until I've seen the game in person though.

 

[Squeak]

I think we should post some screenshots just for sh*ts and giggles.

Could we please have some real ingame screens?

 

[function]

I'm sorry to be killjoy, but this thread seems to be a bit of a waste of time.

We have the usual supects (sorry guys) taking up exactly the stances that would be expected of them, citing only the (often patchy, secondary) evidence that supports their stance, and declaring a winner in various areas despite no real evidence or knowledge of these areas. Oh, or even having played the game they consider the "loser" by any meaningful amount.

All we know is that the specialist gaming press is almost overwhealmingly giving Forza slightly* higher marks, and that there was a popuar science article saying Forza had reached previously unreanched levels of detail in it's physics engine. I'll happily accept all that (without the need to say why all the GT4 reviews don't actually mean what they say they do because they're biased against GT4 because because because ...), but say at the end of the day I'd prefer WHICHEVER I MOST ENJOYED!!

If you look at posts by people like Kolgar, who've played them both, it appears that (shock-horror!) they're both really great games with lots to offer. That's the important thing to take away, rather than which you should prefer due to frame rate figures and supposition based upon supposition by a tiny cross section of anonymous "racing fans" off the internet.

I, personally, think Forza looks better, and think it *probably* has more detailed physics (but are they more accurate, or more rewarding?). But is it more fun? I'll decide when I play it. Just about all you can say is that if you value online play, you have only one choice from the two regardless of anything else.

No-one here is really in a position to say which game more accurately replicates the expereince of driving these cars around these tracks (where the bumps on every track are, and how they affect the precise balance of every sports car at every point?). We may never know, unless someone finds professional racing drivers to do a comparison ...

[edit]*Stressing the slightly here.[/edit]