Formula 1 - 2010 Season

[Davros]

Just making the point, it was done to benefit alonso, he has no qualms about cheating or having other people cheat if he benefits.

 

[Bludd]

Just making the point, it was done to benefit alonso, he has no qualms about cheating or having other people cheat if he benefits.

If that is true, it was done to benefit Lewis Hamilton too, and all who worked at McLaren. What really happened was that Stepney was disgruntled and wanted a new job. It is a stupid point.

 

[Davros]

lewis's didn't know anything about the inside info, alonso wouldn't allow his side to help lewis's side in any way, wouldn't share telemetry, wouldn't share setup's, wouldn't share anything

 

[Davros]

On a different subject, mike gasgoine mentioned that his boss would like to get rid of the blue flag rule and make drivers fight for every place.
what do you think good idea or not ?

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

No. If you are slow enough to be lapped you have no business in meddling with the front runners where they are fighting for championships. I can understand his POV. On TV it looks a lot better to have a Lotus fight (block) a Ferrari than having a Lotus move the fuck over for a Ferrari.

 

[Davros]

I dont think the lotus (for example) would go so far as actively defending his position against a car about to lap it but, he wouldnt compromise his own race either by slowing down or moving off the racing line

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Ask Alonso how he feels about that

At any rate their race is not important. They don't even fight for points. If you are fighting for points and the other car is really close than I can understand if you not jump out of the way right away but instead maybe wait one or two corners but if you are only fighting for track position you have no business bothering the front runners even the slightest.

 

[Phil]

I'm certain Massa could have held him off if he had tried, but he would have been forcing Alonso to slow down. There is no question that Alonso was the faster car.

Who is faster is absolutely not relevenat. Massa was in front and he put himself into that position and deserves a right to fight for his position. It was his position and it was up to Alonso to fight for it, not the other way around.

The rules (39.1) are clear:
"Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited"

Black on white. There are no ifs, no buts.

Even if there is some merit to why a team as Ferrari might want to break that rule, it still is against the rule. If we didn't have this rule, we'd more likely have Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso fighting for the championship alone, rather than Hamilton, Button, Webber, Vettel and Alonso. In fact, RedBull has every right to be vocal on the subject, after all, they ultimately sacrificied a certain 1-2 in Turkey by having both their drivers collide which would have been avoidable if they could have dictated Webber to move over as cleanly as Massa just did on Sunday.

I find it especially all the more amusing after Alonso's talk about "manipulated race" in Valencia. Oh the irony...

We don't want manipulated races and we certainly don't want justification for what might spice up the championship race. We already had the politics in 2008. Alonso put himself in a difficult position to fight for the championship and in insight after his jump start and other mistakes on the track - he has only himself to blame for.

 

[Bludd]

The FIA has to consistently enforce this rule now. It has not been enforced before and it is very ironic that Jean Todt, Mr. Team Order himself, is at the helm in FIA. He famously flipped a coin for who of his Peugot drivers would win the Dakar rally one year. He orchestrated Austria 2002, Indianapolis 2001 etc.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Actually Todt doesnt directly influence judging anymore like mosley had. Todt changed that. So he won't be judging this directly.

Secondly the manipulation comment is just stupid. Telling a team in a teamsport that they can't make decisions that benefit the team is just weird. Besides that, how do all you manipulation sayers thing about massa moving over for raikonnen so he could win the WDC? and how it happend the other way around the year after to keep Massa in the race? Should Ferrari just have wasted 2 chances at winning a WDC for the sake of one better performance from a certain driver? Seriously, has common sense all but disapeard from the planet?

 

[DuckThor Evil]

How do all you manipulation sayers thing about massa moving over for raikonnen so he could win the WDC? and how it happend the other way around the year after to keep Massa in the race? Should Ferrari just have wasted 2 chances at winning a WDC for the sake of one better performance from a certain driver? Seriously, has common sense all but disapeard from the planet?

The difference here is that both drivers still easily have a mathematical chance to win the title and by a far margin. Yes Alonso is closer, but I quarantee you that if the situation was reverse Alonso would not have let Massa pass him, nor would the team even had made such a request. Alonso has to be totally without chances to win the WC for him to let his teammate pass.

 

[Phil]

Actually Todt doesnt directly influence judging anymore like mosley had. Todt changed that. So he won't be judging this directly.

Secondly the manipulation comment is just stupid. Telling a team in a teamsport that they can't make decisions that benefit the team is just weird. Besides that, how do all you manipulation sayers thing about massa moving over for raikonnen so he could win the WDC? and how it happend the other way around the year after to keep Massa in the race? Should Ferrari just have wasted 2 chances at winning a WDC for the sake of one better performance from a certain driver? Seriously, has common sense all but disapeard from the planet?

The thing is though, it's not a discussion about what is sensible and what isn't. It's about abiding by a clear-cut rule that other teams so far have followed and ultimately has given us the interesting and close battle between Button and Hamilton, Webber and Vettel and to a lesser extend, Massa and Alonso. At this point, 5, if not 6 of these drivers are very much in the challenge for the WDC.

If RedBull had took the liberty to do exactly what Ferrari did on Sunday, Vettel (or Webber) may be further in the lead. Hamilton or Button may also have not come close to taking each other out. Yet, they didn't and we saw one spectacular fight that ended in tears, one that nearly did and another, which was clearly manipulated.

As a fan of the sport, one deserves to see how that "fight" between Massa and Alonso might have ended up. Why is Ferrari allowed to manufacture the results by having the entire team work for one driver while the rest of the F1 teams give their pilots equal chances of victory and risking that both take points off each other?

Alonso's victory is especially bitter, after he started to fume "this is ridiculous" after not being let by by his team mate when he first had a small chance.

 

[Bludd]

It is a clear-cut rule that has never been enforced before, Phil.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Team orders are going to exist as long as they allow teams with more than 1 car.

 

[rendezvous]

Take a rain coat ! This alone should add to excitement!

I didn't bring a raincoat and I didn't need it. The weather on saturday and sunday was lovely. We skipped the friday practice and went to the Porsche museum in Stuttgart instead which was our first misstake, we should have gone to the Mercedes museum instead.
The second misstake was too skimp out on the kangaroo TV. It was a mere 70€ for the weekend which had been well worth it. Bring your own ear plugs and 3,5 mm spliters and you can even share one on three persons.

 

[Lightman]

I didn't bring a raincoat and I didn't need it. The weather on saturday and sunday was lovely. We skipped the friday practice and went to the Porsche museum in Stuttgart instead which was our first misstake, we should have gone to the Mercedes museum instead.
The second misstake was too skimp out on the kangaroo TV. It was a mere 70€ for the weekend which had been well worth it. Bring your own ear plugs and 3,5 mm spliters and you can even share one on three persons.

I was driving through Germany very early on Saturday and it was raining all the time (E34 -Dortmund, Hanover, Berlin, Cottbus) so lucky you! :smile:

 

[Phil]

It is a clear-cut rule that has never been enforced before, Phil.

Yes, but surely, that doesn't give a team the right to outrightly disobey that rule.

Lets assume there are no further sanctions from the WMSC (due to insufficient evidence) and Ferrari gets off lightly. What if, Alonso wins the champioship by less than 7 points - wouldn't that taint what otherwise would have been a fantastic season?

I guess the scenario is a bit different, when a team mate choses to let his other team mate pass in the last race because he has no chance for victory while the other could potentially win the WDC. But evidently, Massa did not want to give up that win in Hockenheim, he fought for it and at the end, had to yield to the team and swallow his pride. That his team mate is no other than Alonso probably doesn't help either.

No one probably could have blamed Massa if he had parked his car in disgust after having to let Alonso through. I'd be seriously worried that at any of the next few races if he ends up being in front of him, that he will be forced to let him through, perhaps less obviously next time. It's also a dangerous precedent, as other teams might start including more hidden team-orders to balance out their chances.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Lets assume there are no further sanctions from the WMSC (due to insufficient evidence) and Ferrari gets off lightly. What if, Alonso wins the champioship by less than 7 points - wouldn't that taint what otherwise would have been a fantastic season?

No why would it? For example, I don't hear how Senna's WDC is tainted when he literally drove into Prost on purpose on the first corner of the race because that is the only way he could win the WDC.

I get the idea that for you its more a case against Ferrari than anything else.

 

[Kaotik]

No why would it? For example, I don't hear how Senna's WDC is tainted when he literally drove into Prost on purpose on the first corner of the race because that is the only way he could win the WDC.

I get the idea that for you its more a case against Ferrari than anything else.

[nitpicking] He didn't really drive into Prost, he just drow straight out from a corner being on the inside while Prost was on the outside, forcing Prost out too
(at least if my memory serves me)
[/nitpicking]

 

[Bludd]

Yes, but surely, that doesn't give a team the right to outrightly disobey that rule.

Lets assume there are no further sanctions from the WMSC (due to insufficient evidence) and Ferrari gets off lightly. What if, Alonso wins the champioship by less than 7 points - wouldn't that taint what otherwise would have been a fantastic season?

I guess the scenario is a bit different, when a team mate choses to let his other team mate pass in the last race because he has no chance for victory while the other could potentially win the WDC. But evidently, Massa did not want to give up that win in Hockenheim, he fought for it and at the end, had to yield to the team and swallow his pride. That his team mate is no other than Alonso probably doesn't help either.

No one probably could have blamed Massa if he had parked his car in disgust after having to let Alonso through. I'd be seriously worried that at any of the next few races if he ends up being in front of him, that he will be forced to let him through, perhaps less obviously next time. It's also a dangerous precedent, as other teams might start including more hidden team-orders to balance out their chances.

That has always been the case in F1. Team orders have always been a part of the game. It doesn't give any team the right to break a rule, but when a rule is not enforced it should be removed.

If Alonso wins the WDC this year and Germany stands out as the only team order situation, it won't matter. What will matter is that in that eventuality Alonso and Ferrari will have staged one hell of a fight-back. If there are many more team order situations, it will be tainted. Hopefully it won't come to that.

Let's remember Austria 2002 again. It was round 6 of a 17 round season. Schumacher led the championship. His closest rival was Montoya who he had almost 2x more points than. Barrichello had been faster all weekend, he out-qualified Schumi, he out-raced Schumi and he had to give away the win at the last corner of the last lap.

This is not the same situation at all.