Formula 1 - 2008 Season

Apart from Webber, the only current F1 driver who was actually trying was Button, who was faster in the dry, but who isn't really in the same league as Hamilton.

Do I even need to comment on this? your not talking about some backyard hobby racers, your talking about racedrivers in the highest class, a class only a handfull of people are capable of driving at the same time. Do you honestly, honestly think one of those drivers isnt capable of maxing out a car like the Liana in such a short time? Even a ''average'' driver like Button is still a more than very capable driver.

Remember when Schumacher was racing in the wet, no one could believe how much faster he was than everyone else? It's like everyone else had to slow down and Schumacher hardly did. The most obvious explanation is that Hamilton is just like that, and is simply very fast in the wet as well as in the dry.

Ofcourse a f1 car, a car with more than 1000bhp a ton, with special brakes that need to be kept warm, with tyres that need to be kept warm and all other kinds of stuff is completely and totally comparable with a car like the Liana. Actually im suprised no team races the Liana, because it would be a sure bet winning the WDC in one of those.

For some reason you seem to feel the need to denigrate Hamilton just for being a quick driver. Some guys are just naturally fast. Raikkonnen, Alonso, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, etc were/are a league above all the other drivers, and it seems likely that Hamilton is one of those consistently fast guys, and not to be placed with the Webbers, Coulthards, Fisichellas, etc, where you are so determined to put him.

Yes, and all the last drivers you mention drive slower cars than hamilton and still arnt 3 seconds slower a lap in most cases just like hamilton wouldnt be 3 seconds slower if you gave all of them that Liana and let them drive in the same circomstances.
 
You gotta remember that a small car in the wet(while it isn't as quick as in the dry obviously) is not too slow. Example. A few years(2000) ago I went on an BMW advanced driving course thing for a day. It's was the new 3.28i .. the one after the box shape .. E90 I think.

Anyway. We had to do a wet circuit without traction control, stability control etc. and I did it with the BMW in 50sec. After that I decided to do the same course with my little VW Chicco(Golf MK1) with it's 1.3l engine. I did the same course in 45secs.

I queried the instructor about it. He's explanation was that my mk1 has biscuit tires. The water doesn't affect the car as much. Also the lower kw(bhp) gave the car a better pull away in the water as it wouldn't spin the tires as much as one would do with a more powerful car.

Now while the power isn't an issue in this, the biscuit tires I believe would've given Hamilton some traction in the wet. Also the track would've been drying up .. it wasn't completely wet but it was still wet. Think about it, in the WRC, when the cars race in snow, they race on biscuits and not the normal thick tyres.

So ye, I think Hamilton did well .. even if it was in the wet. In the dry he might be a 1sec. to 1.5sec. faster imo. He was mighty into that second last turn.

US
 
Im not taking things to seriously, I dont have to because common sense is enough to know that you dont make a 3 second difference if all the drivers are giving it their best.
I think one of the differences here is that its actually Hamilton that does take this stuff seriously. Although he comes off all blasé in the interview everything that I've seen or read of him indicates that he really wants to win at anything he tries at and he will practice to make to it perfect; I'm sure he absorbed everything Stig told him about the car and the track and had a large number of practice laps. You could see his competetive streak when he immediately wanted to be invited back for a run on a dry track.

I read an Autocar (UK magazine) earlier in the year where they were regaling of the first time they met Hamilton. It was at some demonstraction where they had a number of big name drivers (including F1 drivers of the time) and they had to powerslide a BMW round the track - Hamilton was there as a relative unknowner and he hadn't actually driven a standard road car much at that point. During the actual demo his lap wasn't that fantastic. However, he evidently approached them at the end, when everyone else had gone and said "I'd like to practice some more, do you mind if I have a few more laps" - the writer said they sat there and just watched him do lap, after lap, after lap until he eventually got it down pat and was as good as anyone else.

This is just an illustration of his competetive nature and his willingness to want to learn and be better than everyone else - this bore little relationship to the form of racing he was in at the time, but he didn't want to leave without having learnt something new and end up being good at it. Its both this competetive streak and desire to learn that is probably going to cause the most consternation for other F1 drivers in the future.
 
I think one of the differences here is that its actually Hamilton that does take this stuff seriously. Although he comes off all blasé in the interview everything that I've seen or read of him indicates that he really wants to win at anything he tries at and he will practice to make to it perfect; I'm sure he absorbed everything Stig told him about the car and the track and had a large number of practice laps. You could see his competetive streak when he immediately wanted to be invited back for a run on a dry track.

It also helped that he cut atleast three corners with questionable margin... He is a great driver but some of you seem to think like he is a god (not you Dave)

edit: Ok it looked like he only cheated in two corners.
 
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I supported Kimi this year.

I was waiting for the cut corner thing .. but again, I only saw him cut one(the last corner) and it wasn't even by much so you can remove 0.1sec.

I guess we'll see he's time in the dry sometime soon.

US
 
I think one of the differences here is that its actually Hamilton that does take this stuff seriously. Although he comes off all blasé in the interview everything that I've seen or read of him indicates that he really wants to win at anything he tries at and he will practice to make to it perfect; I'm sure he absorbed everything Stig told him about the car and the track and had a large number of practice laps. You could see his competetive streak when he immediately wanted to be invited back for a run on a dry track.

I read an Autocar (UK magazine) earlier in the year where they were regaling of the first time they met Hamilton. It was at some demonstraction where they had a number of big name drivers (including F1 drivers of the time) and they had to powerslide a BMW round the track - Hamilton was there as a relative unknowner and he hadn't actually driven a standard road car much at that point. During the actual demo his lap wasn't that fantastic. However, he evidently approached them at the end, when everyone else had gone and said "I'd like to practice some more, do you mind if I have a few more laps" - the writer said they sat there and just watched him do lap, after lap, after lap until he eventually got it down pat and was as good as anyone else.

This is just an illustration of his competetive nature and his willingness to want to learn and be better than everyone else - this bore little relationship to the form of racing he was in at the time, but he didn't want to leave without having learnt something new and end up being good at it. Its both this competetive streak and desire to learn that is probably going to cause the most consternation for other F1 drivers in the future.

I guess time will tell, but if this is true and he can manage to communicate well with his race engineers and possibly the designers, he'll give Schumacher a run for his money as the best F1 driver ever.

Anyway it will be really fun to follow his career.
 
I supported Kimi this year.

So did I !! :smile:

I was waiting for the cut corner thing .. but again, I only saw him cut one(the last corner) and it wasn't even by much so you can remove 0.1sec.

I guess we'll see he's time in the dry sometime soon.
US

He also cut quite a lot on Hammerhead. And I think he won more than 0.1 in that last corner, even when he cut he went very wide at the other end, and if he hadn't cut that corner he wouldn't have been able to drive as fast over the finish line. The second to last corner was pretty awesome though... And just to make things clear I think Hamilton is one of the best if not the best driver out there.
 
Its obvious he has talent, but keep in mind he had a very good car this year and not alot of pressure. When he got under pressure he screwed up big 2 times. We will see how he manages next year and if he also got what it takes to improve a car and a team. Though he might not need that so much being at Mclaren.
 
Old Fisi and Ralfie are testing for Force India. Isn't that kinda sad? I guess Fisi has it in him to continue but I question Ralf's future.
 
He also cut quite a lot on Hammerhead. And I think he won more than 0.1 in that last corner, even when he cut he went very wide at the other end, and if he hadn't cut that corner he wouldn't have been able to drive as fast over the finish line. The second to last corner was pretty awesome though... And just to make things clear I think Hamilton is one of the best if not the best driver out there.

You know what .. I had a look at the proper episode released and I take it back. The last corner was not cut. Ye he's wheel went a fraction on to the ground but it was not 'cut' enough to warrent it to be called cheating. Hammerhead .. nope I won't say it was cut too .. check Stig driving the Vauxhall VXR8, he also 'cut' it. So you can't really say that Lewis cheated either.

US
 
Hammerhead .. nope I won't say it was cut too .. check Stig driving the Vauxhall VXR8, he also 'cut' it. So you can't really say that Lewis cheated either.
US

LMAO!... Hamilton has his left side tires on the inner side track line, so basically his entire car is off the track in Hammerhead and you have the nerve to say that's not cutting... He first cuts significantly in the first left turn in Hammerhead and cuts ridiculously much in the next right turn.

Stig also cuts a little bit with VXR8, but not nearly as much as Hamilton and what's the point anyways?

edit: Also in the last corner his right front tire is just on the track at one point, meaning that the left front tire is pretty far out in the grass, look at stills if you don't see it other ways
 
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Here is what I'm talking about.... Click the pictures to make them bigger.




In this one the left rear tire is already on the grass and look at the angle that the car is. The front left tire is far on the grass.



Here is a another one on the last corner, now the right front tire is barely on the track, so where is the front left tire? because of this and still making it wide at the exit he secured good speed there.

And here is the hammerhead...



This picture is not very good, but you can still see that His left front tire is off the line and his rear right tire is also quite close to the line...
compine this with the following picture...



You can clearly see that his left front tire is on the inner side of the track line, it actually looks like the tire is totally off the track there. By cheating like this in this combination corner, I'm sure he won lot's of time.
 
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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64283

Well, he's fastest at Jerez today. First time back in the car since the end of the season and first time without TC in an F1 car. He seems to be driving the McLaren like the Lianos. ;)

r_2007-12-05T135655-2
 
No talent that guy :LOL:

Considering everyone got their tails whipped by the people testing slicks yesterday, wonder what was different today.
 
F1 has lost all credibility. Mclaren gets fined $100 million and loses all points for "likelyhood" with no evidence. Renault admits wrongdoing, gets found guilty, and doesn't lose a thing.

Personally I think it's the Maclaren decision that was wrong, because by rights listening to Coughlan and going on "likelyhoods" means that the FIA should also have listened to Stepney and given Ferrari the same punishment for "likelyhoods".

Now the FIA have painted themselves into a corner, and it looks like Mosely is running his vendetta against Mclaren while letting everyone else off, especially his best friends at Ferrari. The FIA set a stupid precedent last year with Maclaren, and now they look even more stupid because they can't stick to consistent punishment for the same rule infringements.
 
Indeed, I guess a few emails alluding to information is far more evidence that actual proof and 18 signed witness statements from 9 different people.

I guess the rule is, if it's against Ferrari you are in deep shit, against anyone else, do what you like.

And the only reason the Ferrari info came to light is because Stepany thought they were cheating, where as the only reason Renault had the stuff was so the new guy could make himself look good by improving their performance with McLaren info.
 
You guys seem to miss the important bits. Mclaren benefited from the information, the information was a continuous flow thoughout the year(until they got caught).

Renault didn't benefit from the the year old drawings. There was no continuous flow of information being leaked to the team through the year.

WMSC: Renault didn't benefit from data

The FIA's decision not to punish Renault for a breach of the regulations in their spy matter was down to the fact that it revolved around just four drawings of parts from a year-old car that the team gained no benefit from.

That is the conclusion that emerged on Friday in a statement detailing why the World Motor Sport Council (WMSC) had not punished Renault despite them being found guilty of possession of McLaren technical information.

The FIA statement revealed that evidence discovered during detailed examination of the situation surrounding documents taken from McLaren by Renault engineer Phil Mackereth showed that only a few items had been shown within the former world championship-winning team.

Although the amount of information Mackereth took when he left McLaren in September 2006 was deemed to have been 'significant' by the FIA, it was discovered that a vast majority of this had not been shown to anyone else inside Renault.

It was concluded that he had shown only four drawing to other Renault employees - which were of the fuel systems, gearbox layout and damper designs.

The FIA ruled, however, that the team had gained absolutely no benefit from this matter - even though a drawing of McLaren's J-damper had formed the basis of an attempted rule clarification by Renault.

The statement said: "The WMSC has concluded that of the four drawings actually viewed by Renault's engineers, three were either of no use to Renault or were not in fact used by Renault. The fourth drawing (a drawing of McLaren's so-called 'J-damper') was used by Renault in that Renault admits taking it into account in preparing a request to the FIA for a clarification of whether a particular hypothetical system was within the rules (rather than for the purposes of copying it).

"The fact that Renault fundamentally misunderstood the operation of the system suggests that the 'J-damper' drawing did not reveal to Renault enough about the system for the championship to have been affected."

In light of the way in which McLaren were eventually fined $100 million (USD) and thrown out of the constructors' championship, the WMSC claim that the two cases are very different.

"The McLaren confidential information brought to Renault was in the context of an F1 engineer changing teams," said the statement. "It was not 'live' information in the sense that there is no evidence of a flow of current information between competing teams.

"After leaving McLaren, Mackereth had no further access to current or updated McLaren information. Nor is there any evidence that Renault encouraged Mackereth in any way to bring the confidential information from McLaren."

The FIA did note, however, that the Mackereth situation should have been resolved sooner by Renault when it became clear that he had illegal McLaren intellectual property in his possession.

"The WMSC notes with strong disapproval the fact that there were individuals of sufficient seniority within Renault who should have known that the drawings that Mackereth showed them contained proprietary confidential information.

"This organisational failing meant that they did not report the matter to their line managers as they should have done. Had they done so, the matter may have been brought to the FIA's attention at a far earlier stage."

It added: "In these circumstances, although a number of very unsatisfactory elements were noted during the deliberations, in assessing the gravity of the breach, the WMSC concluded that there was insufficient evidence to establish that the information was used in such a way as to interfere with or to have an impact on the Championship."

The WMSC has reserved the right, however, to reopen the case if fresh evidence comes to light that suggest the team did gain a benefit from the information.

"It should be noted that in the event of new information coming to light which calls into question the WMSC's conclusions in this decision, this matter may be re-opened by the FIA," the statement said.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64310

I'd say a huge difference to what the McLaren team was into.

US
 
There was never any proof that Mclaren benefited. It was always "likelihood" because of the phone calls. However those same phone calls went both ways, with Stepney claiming he knew just as much about what Mclaren was doing, yet this was ignored by the FIA.

FIA seem to be saying that as long as you stop spying/stealing info before we catch you, it's okay. FIA have already set the rules that if they think you are spying, you should be severely punished. FIA have already found Renault guilty, so it follows that they should issue punishment, just as they did with Mclaren.
 
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