Feasibility of an upgradeable or forwards compatible console *spawn*

[Scott_Arm]

Forward comparable console isn't a new type of consoles. New 3ds & 3ds are recent examples.

Yep. Forwards compatibility is the key to making a shorter console/upgrade cycle work. The games need to run on the new hardware without any changes from the devs. That may be a place where Xbox One's higher-level abstraction helps it. It has some low-level functions relative to the PC, but not sure if there's anything that would be a huge barrier to forwards compatibility, as long as they stay with x86. ESRAM is the only thing I can think of that could be tricky.

After three or four new generations of hardware they may have to go back to some kind of emulation, depending on how much the hardware shifts each generation.

Their VM model will put a lock on the software-side. The game runs in its own VM with the necessary underlying software, so you can have generations of VMs for running older games, just like they do with the 360.

 

[eastmen]

Right, because no Xbox One owner ever bought a HD remaster. No copies of Metro Redux were sold for Xbox, Tomb Raider Definitive Edition for Xbox sat on shelves. Nobody bought The Master Chief collection! Gears of War: Ultimate Edition? ZERO SALES! Dammit, I miss the rolling eyes emoticon so much!

Thus far, backwards compatibility on consoles has given you last generation's experience - if you're lucky. The downside is once you are accustomed to whatever current generation graphics are, reverting back to even well regarded games (Uncharted 3, The Last of Us, GTA V, Far Cry 3) is like somebody clawing their fingernails across your eyeballs. It's also easy to forget how many games last gen were sub-720p and how many this gen are sub-1080p. Or have framerate issues, or compromises draw distances, or all three. The ideal is to have games written today run better on next generation consoles, just like PC games do, but for that to happen today's games need to be written to be extensible with scaleable resolutions, frame rates, shading and lighting effects. Much will depend on the execution of UWP on Xbox hardware but developers can't tune today's settings for future hardware that's not even on the drawing board.

While this would be a great selling point for Microsoft and great for gamers, it would be less appealing for publishers and it can't work without them. And they don't want you replaying old games on your new console, they want you buying new games. Letting you play old games much better isn't good for business.

Sony has put out more Remasters of last gen games , some only 1 or 2 years old when they released on the ps4.

MS put Halo MC collection out which comprised of games almost 14 years old at the time to games a few years old in a single $60 package

The fact is Sony has been sucesful covering up their lack luster first party titles by having these remasters. Its an obvious selling point.

It's because of that, that offering to buy the game once and get a better experience later on with a new hardware sku is a reason to stick with your current console company.


As for publishers, in movie business selling older titles is a huge boon financially. I would wager it be the same game devs. Yes they want to sell you call of duty 25 for $60 bucks , but I'm sure they wouldn't mind selling you call of duty 5 for $10. With digital stores becoming more popular a publisher can continuely sell older games.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

MS put Halo MC collection out which comprised of games almost 14 years old at the time to games a few years old in a single $60 package

One game, Halo Combat Evolved, was fourteen years old and is Microsoft's second remaster of this particular game. As DF concluded, the remaster is from the 2011 edition. You also seem to have forgotten Gears of War Ultimate Edition which is odd because you only bought it Tuesday.

Publishers will remaster games they think they will sell more of, which is why we've seen more remasters from third parties than Microsoft or Sony, or both combined. Metro Redux, Tomb Raider, Dishonoured, Darksiders II, GTA V, Prototype, Devil May Cry 4, several Resident Evil games, State of Decay, several Final Fantasy games, Dark Souls II, Borderlands, Saints Row IV, Sleeping Dogs and Diablo III. I reckon I've missed a bunch more smaller titles.

I'd say that both Sony and Microsoft are remastering games in franchises they intend to invest in further (Uncharted, The Last of Us, God of War, Tearaway, Halo and Gears) and the goal here is to give those who may have missed previous outings, an in for franchise they never indulged in and otherwise may decide to skip.

As for publishers, in movie business selling older titles is a huge boon financially. I would wager it be the same game devs. Yes they want to sell you call of duty 25 for $60 bucks , but I'm sure they wouldn't mind selling you call of duty 5 for $10. With digital stores becoming more popular a publisher can continuely sell older games.

There is very little post-sale support for movies. You master your DVD, Blu-ray disc or stream and it's done. Games need to work and you need to test them on new operating systems and with new graphics APIs to make sure they do still work. This is an ongoing cost as long as you want to sell the game. At least in countries that mandate products must actually work.

 

[AlNom]

can we get back onatoppic

 

[Deleted member 11852]

can we get back onatoppic

Fair do but from a technical aspect there is little to debate in terms of feasibility, it can be done. We're at the point where you can implement a solution using COTS technology. The biggest question regarding feasibility is whether it's feasible commercially. The current console model is good economically for the industry because new consoles mean gamers invest in new game libraries. Would that still happen to the same degree if gamers could replay existing games at higher quality? Backwards compatibility vs. remasters are part of that equation.

Is it more profitable to sell old games cheap, as is common on Steam (except for Activision), or invest a little in a remaster and sell it at a higher price? How many developers and publishers would hit the wall if investment dropped significantly?

Consoles are one of the last markets where the scope for competition is huge because old libraries get ditched every few years. Anybody could jump in, just like Sony and Microsoft did. Once the market is carrying the inertia of an evergrowing ecosystem that works forever, market disruption becomes very difficult.

 

[function]

If publishers were opposed to selling older games on newer systems, why would they be willingly granting MS permission to sell their old 360 games to Xbone owners through the XBone store?

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Remasters occasionally occur on PC as well, so it's not something limited to consoles. In fact, Microsoft themselves have remastered many of their previous games (Age of Empires, Rise of Nations, Age of Mythology, etc.).

Bioware remastered Baldur's Gate on PC and then later ported that remaster to mobile devices. And there's plenty more.

So, remasters wouldn't be out of the question for a platform where you can play old games. Although the type of double dipping that Sony (Last of Us) and Rockstar (GTA 5) did with the remaster appearing within 1 year of the previous version would no longer exist. And I'm sure all gamers would be quite happy with that.

Regards,
SB

 

[Deleted member 11852]

If publishers were opposed to selling older games on newer systems, why would they be willingly granting MS permission to sell their old 360 games to Xbone owners through the XBone store?

Microsoft undertake all the work for Xbox One's backwards compatibility model, its not a free for all - you can only play the games Microsot and the publisher agree to make available, meaning there is a literal valve to the content available. Plus the games don't look any better than they did on 360. Unless I misunderstand, discussion is centred on games that will be able to take advance of new hardware - like PC games - because of inherent scaleability.

Remasters occasionally occur on PC as well, so it's not something limited to consoles. In fact, Microsoft themselves have remastered many of their previous games (Age of Empires, Rise of Nations, Age of Mythology, etc.).

Yes, Metro Redux too. But the ratio of remasters to games available on the PC platform is tiny, it's got to be around 0.000001% of the market. How many PC remasters crack the top 5 in sales? They seem to be almost far service than a viable business. On consoles the are a viable business. Why the difference? Would Tomb Raider Definitive Edition have sold nearly so well if PS4/XBO owners could just buy PS3/360 Tomb Raider cheap and play that instead? That's the million dollar question.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Well, XBO owners can play the 360 version of Tomb Raider if they already owned it, which qualifies as pretty darn cheap. Granted backwards compat. didn't come out until after so that's not a good reference point. Gears of War remaster on the other hand did. And it still did relatively well I believe. Heck I know some people on PC that own the original on PC and are planning to get the remaster.

Regards,
SB

 

[Deleted member 11852]

And that's the question. Will remasters, which seem to be profitable, still be a thing if you can play the old games - or is this an source an income that will dry up? Console gamers represent what is largely a captive audience. Would Far Cry 4 have sold as well if console owners could play Far Cry 3 at better quality? I would have though twice about it but I wanted more Far Cry and 4 was the only option for PS4 at the time.

Once you give gamers the choice to play something older but looking and playing better than it did the first time you played it, will sales on new software drop off? What would that mean for investment in AAA games for the industry?

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I forgot to add one wrinkle to this.

Microsoft are also experimenting with releasing newly created expansions/DLC for remastered games. Age of Mythology Remaster, for example, got a brand new expansion recently. Tales of the Dragon.

Also, StarCraft 1 got an unofficial remaster in the StarCraft 2 engine (useable with the free version of SC2 and it is brilliant). Didn't affect StarCraft 2 sales in any way. Not exactly the same as an official remaster, but it is the entire first game in SC2 including voice overs and original cinematics. Not to mention still being able to play the Original StarCraft on PC.

Heck the fact you can still play Diablo and Diablo 2 on PC hasn't affected the sales of Diablo 3.

Crysis being playable on PC and still looking fantastic didn't affect sales of Crysis 2. The more restricted level design did more to hurt sales than Crysis 1 actually being playable (/snicker) at maxed graphics settings and higher resolution.

Is the original Doom being playable, with vastly upgraded graphics due to Mods going to hurt the sales of the new Doom? Highly unlikely.

The aforementioned Metro Redux did almost as well as the original in sales on Steam. So remasters don't necessarily sell worse or much worse than their originals. I believe the remade Masters of Orion is doing fairly well also. As is Elite.

Regards,
SB

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Remastering games with with intention to expand upon seems like a sensible idea. How do you know Crysis 2 wouldn't have sold better if Crysis wasn't also playable? ;-) I think comparing original Doom and modern Doom is stretching it a bit far. Original Doom has a 3D space but 2D maps and sprite enemies

 

[function]

Microsoft undertake all the work for Xbox One's backwards compatibility model, its not a free for all - you can only play the games Microsot and the publisher agree to make available, meaning there is a literal valve to the content available. Plus the games don't look any better than they did on 360. Unless I misunderstand, discussion is centred on games that will be able to take advance of new hardware - like PC games - because of inherent scaleability.

I wouldn't assume that any game will automatically take advantage of hardware released after the game - save for perhaps a FPS increase.

Games might not be inherently scalable beyond hardware known at the time of game's release - unless there was a significant increase in abstraction and "driver level" interference in how a game presented itself.##

Truth is, there are a number of ways in which phone-style hardware improvements could manifest themselves in terms of software outcomes ...

 

[trainplane]

Cross gen games is the real discussion here. I think cross compatibility will happen whether the gap between hardware is 3 years or 6 years. Many of the big titles came out for current hardware as well as last gen hardware in 2013-2014. Having similar hardware and the same OS makes this work easier--one SKU that scales vs two entirely different development builds.

The big question to me is what can actually be scaled easily? Easily is the operative word here. We know resolution can and FPS can. We can scale AA, AF and other IQ related stuff.

But a new generation should be more than just better IQ. Can AI really be scaled? Can polygon models be scaled (outside of tessellation)? Can scene density be scaled? Can features be scaled? New gen Shadows of Mordor had a whole system that wasn't in old gen but those were two completely different devs I believe.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

AI can be scaled (increase rate of tests, resolution of tests, etc). Scene density can be scaled. Features is the only major thing that can't be, but then you end up changing the game.

 

[Michellstar]

Here we go again...

http://kotaku.com/sources-sony-is-working-on-a-ps4-5-1765723053

"Sources: Sony Is Working On A ‘PlayStation 4.5’"

"Sony is currently planning a new version of the PS4 with increased graphical power and games running at 4K resolution, developer sources tell Kotaku."


"Based on conversations with developers who have spoken with Sony, this ‘PS4.5’ will include an upgraded GPU both to support high-end 4K resolution for games and add more processing power that can enhance the games supported by PlayStation VR, the headset Sony will launch this fall. It’s unclear if ‘PS4.5’ is an official name or just a nickname that developers have been using. One developer jokingly called it the ‘PS4K’ while telling me about the device."


"The PS4.5 may not be alone, either.

I’ve heard whispers about an upgraded Xbox One for a while now, and Microsoft has been public about the possibility. At a press briefing earlier this month, Xbox head Phil Spencer hinted to journalists that his company has been exploring the possibility of evolving hardware. “We look at these other ecosystems out there like mobile, tablet and PC,”




Given the lead this gen with the PS4, it seems unlikely that Sony takes this route, especially with the transition to 16FF, where Sony can make a killing with a PS4 slim.

IMO those sources are mixing a new revision with 4k video support (hdmi2??) and with the VR add-on on board.

But who knows...

 

[Deleted member 11852]

"PlayStation 4.5".

Catchy!

 

[Karamazov]

if it's released in 2017 i'm fine with it.

 

[AlNom]

"PlayStation 4.5".

Catchy!

I kinda like "playstation fourk," myself.

 

[wco81]

So it would be what, faster GPU but mostly an upscaler?

And HDMI 2.2 to play 4K Blu Ray discs?