Europe: can it be cracked?

[Crossbar]

Yep, agreed. MS has a reputation over there, and to a lesser extent in the UK. Not quite sure why in a sense, because most people i know don't seem to care one way or another.

Maybe some people think one monopoly/company is enough. MS has dominated the PC OS space for about 25 years, Sony hasn´t dominated the console space to the same extent yet and probably never will. (please, save me any definition of "monopoly" )

Even Japan has Japan-centric games on 360, but what does Europe have? I think part of the reason is Sony, being Japanese, always perceived both Europe and America to have different tastes to themselves, and have made games accordingly. There does seem to be a perception by American companies, perhaps due to some success stories over here in other ways like McDonalds etc, that we like the same things they do which as you point out, isn't always the case. Nintendo I think don't suffer from this so much, because their franchises seem fairly universally popular.

I agree, there may be a missunderstanding that though Europe is a big consumer of American culture, there are many differences, Europe is a pretty heterogen market. :smile:

Microsoft did some classic "one size fits all"-misstake with Xbox1, like the size of the controller in Japan, they are still learning and I think they are doing pretty well actually.

I know just what you mean. I'm the same with the PS2. Although i take your points above, I do find that i suffer the same with the PS2. I must be one of the only people here that doesn't own a PS2, and i have found a lot of what comes out on it passes me by. It therefore seems to me a chicken and egg situation; in order to pick up on that info, you generally need to own the platform, but you wouldn't buy the platform without knowing about it

What you say is pretty interesting, if console gamers in general are that loyal, Sony is in a very good position in Europe, to break that loyalty may be the hardest task for MS and Nintendo.

 

[Pozer]

I agree MS could do more to foster more unique games. But MS does a good job pleasing it's fan base, the I just wanna blow something up and kill type gamers. Really thats the majority of people in the US that buy games regularly The "art" games are the niche games here and the demographic that they appeal to does not buy games very often. It's kinda like the ps2. They may have sold 100million consoles but the majority of people that own them doesn't buy a game every week. MS has a demographic that does and they know how to feed that monster.

 

[Paul_G]

I agree MS could do more to foster more unique games. But MS does a good job pleasing it's fan base, the I just wanna blow something up and kill type gamers. Really thats the majority of people in the US that buy games regularly The "art" games are the niche games here and the demographic that they appeal to does not buy games very often. It's kinda like the ps2. They may have sold 100million consoles but the majority of people that own them doesn't buy a game every week. MS has a demographic that does and they know how to feed that monster.

Yep, absolutely right, so now they have "I just wanna blow something up and kill type gamers", they need to go after some other demographics, which is basically what we're talking about here. Even if they totally sew up the US (which judging from the success so far of the Wii, they won't) that won't win them the most sales. They absolutely need to branch out and show gamers who don't "just wanna blow something up" that there is something for them too. Making the sorts of games someone in Europe might like would be a good start, since it has already been said here that the top selling games aren't shooters, they're football games. Also racers are very popular. Granted they sell something in each of those genres, but they need some killer IP that is exclusive to the 360 in order to sell some extra machines to people who would otherwise stick with what they know, which is overwhelmingly the Playstation franchise.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Did you look at the numbers? Right now, the X360 has more FPS games in total, but compared to how much larger their game library is, they have less % wise.
Which is what is important.

That's not entirely true. I agree with your reasoning, and you're more right than -tkf- in terms of relevance of software market. However, %age genre game presence isn't as important as %age desirable genre game presence. As a hypothetical example, which is going to appeal more to racing enthusiasts - a Console with 100 shooters out of 300 games, 20 racers, and 18 racers are rubbish with a couple of good'uns; or a console with 250 shooters out of 300 games, with 5 racers, all of which are awesome? In this case, the console with the far smaller percentage of racers and far larger prevalence of shooters is actually the console of choice for the racing enthusiast.

PS2 had thousands of games, most of which I've never heard of. I'm not attracted to the massive library - I'm attracted to the titles I hear about that appeal to me. XB360 has 300 titles(?). Off the top of my head I could name perhaps 20, of which half are probably what I'd call shooters. The others are RPGs and racers, with a couple of oddities. Measuring percentage of genre presence in total titles isn't accurate in terms of market perception. You need to measure the percentage of genre presence in market mindshare. In a list of top XB360 titles, the famous ones people talk about, if 50% are shooters, the console has a reputation for shooters regardless of the rest of it's library. I think that's what's happening here, and discussion about total libraries is only of benefit to a few forum intellectuals

 

[Cheezdoodles]

That's not entirely true. I agree with your reasoning, and you're more right than -tkf- in terms of relevance of software market. However, %age genre game presence isn't as important as %age desirable genre game presence.

I said the exact same thing, basically, but not as refined, in one of my earlier posts.

tkf, felt it was more important to argue about numbers, and predict the future.

The real problem is that "all" the good games seems to be shooters, but you cant really argue that it has to many of this genre, not when you look at the numbers.

 

[Paul_G]

That's not entirely true. I agree with your reasoning, and you're more right than -tkf- in terms of relevance of software market. However, %age genre game presence isn't as important as %age desirable genre game presence. As a hypothetical example, which is going to appeal more to racing enthusiasts - a Console with 100 shooters out of 300 games, 20 racers, and 18 racers are rubbish with a couple of good'uns; or a console with 250 shooters out of 300 games, with 5 racers, all of which are awesome? In this case, the console with the far smaller percentage of racers and far larger prevalence of shooters is actually the console of choice for the racing enthusiast.

PS2 had thousands of games, most of which I've never heard of. I'm not attracted to the massive library - I'm attracted to the titles I hear about that appeal to me. XB360 has 300 titles(?). Off the top of my head I could name perhaps 20, of which half are probably what I'd call shooters. The others are RPGs and racers, with a couple of oddities. Measuring percentage of genre presence in total titles isn't accurate in terms of market perception. You need to measure the percentage of genre presence in market mindshare. In a list of top XB360 titles, the famous ones people talk about, if 50% are shooters, the console has a reputation for shooters regardless of the rest of it's library. I think that's what's happening here, and discussion about total libraries is only of benefit to a few forum intellectuals

Yeah, that would be better but wouldn't you also say it's not possible? Who's to say what's great? No one would argue for instance that GT is one of those awesome racers, but it's not for everyone. Likewise NFS: Underground is generally considered to be a good game, but nothing special, but if you like that sort of thing, you might prefer it to GT. Therefore, Ostepop's reasoning, though flawed, is the best we can do, since we can definitively class GT as a racer, no matter who you are, but we can't definitively say it's an awesome racer, no matter who you are. For this reason, suggesting that %age desirable genre game presence is preferable is asking the impossible. Only the person buying the console is going to know what they prefer and therefore what is their console of choice.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yeah, that would be better but wouldn't you also say it's not possible? Therefore, Ostepop's reasoning, though flawed, is the best we can do.

Indeed it is the best we can do with scientific method. However, such scientific method is no use in understanding markets! Shoppers aren't that scientific in their buy decisions. If they were, every console would be bought by going to MetaCritic or whatever, drawing up a list of games and genres, getting average scores, applying proper statistical analysis, and producing a gaming metric for each console...

XB360 scores a Shooter rating of 42.8.
PS3 scores 36.7
However, in the First-Person Paranormal Shooter class, PS3 outscores XB360 by 11 points.

Thus if you want to buy a console for shooters, get an XB360, unless paranormal FPSes is your thing where PS3 is a better choice.

Now onto racers...

You know, there's a paper here for anyone who wants to produce an equation for determining the ideal console for any customer.

 

[22psi]

I agree MS could do more to foster more unique games. But MS does a good job pleasing it's fan base, the I just wanna blow something up and kill type gamers. Really thats the majority of people in the US that buy games regularly The "art" games are the niche games here and the demographic that they appeal to does not buy games very often. It's kinda like the ps2. They may have sold 100million consoles but the majority of people that own them doesn't buy a game every week. MS has a demographic that does and they know how to feed that monster.

This I agree with and the software to hardware attached ratio proves it as well. Currently the 360 has over a 5:1 ratio which is great. But yes, MGS needs to expand to other areas... one of the artsy games MGS has tried to push (maybe pushed in a wrong way) was Viva Pinata, a fantastic game but not too many have been sold. Right now the emphasis is more on the mainstream types of games which is rightfully so because they need to garner all the hardcore/mainstream types of gamers first then branch out. 360 will not succeed with continued efforts such as Blue Dragon and Viva Pinata.

 

[avaya]

and they are getting PGR4, FM2, NFS sequel, GTR and DIRT. need more???

The problem is Gran Turismo.

Nevertheless I agree with you here, FM2 will hit long before GT5 does and this will have a great effect on 360 sales. PGR isn't a system seller. However the JRPG's will do more for the cause of shattering the current perception of the 360 than anything else. It is what the Xbox lacked before and the 360 is finally getting some really good ones.

 

[mrcorbo]

That's not entirely true. I agree with your reasoning, and you're more right than -tkf- in terms of relevance of software market. However, %age genre game presence isn't as important as %age desirable genre game presence. As a hypothetical example, which is going to appeal more to racing enthusiasts - a Console with 100 shooters out of 300 games, 20 racers, and 18 racers are rubbish with a couple of good'uns; or a console with 250 shooters out of 300 games, with 5 racers, all of which are awesome? In this case, the console with the far smaller percentage of racers and far larger prevalence of shooters is actually the console of choice for the racing enthusiast.

I think this is a phenomenon that feeds on itself, though. Once you have a single killer title in a genre than any other titles released within that genre will have to measure up to that standard or suffer for the comparison.

One thing to consider across both 360 and PS3 this gen is the increased cost of development and the accompanying added sales pressure. I think this will tend to steer larger development efforts towards genres that have the best chance to sell in big numbers. This is especially true while the user base of each console is so relatively small.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think this is a phenomenon that feeds on itself, though. Once you have a single killer title in a genre than any other titles released within that genre will have to measure up to that standard or suffer for the comparison.

Yes, I was thinking that. It might become something of a self fullfilling prophecy. If hardcore shooter fans like XB360's shooters and buy lots of them, they'll attract more shooter fans and devs will be encouraged to develop shooters. Even if the library remains balanced, the perception of the library which become more entrenched in the shooter mentality. As more shooter fans buy an XB360 for it's limited but excellent shooters, and talk with their peers about the shooters they're playing, they'll both attract more shooter fans to the platform who tell their peers, and discourage people disinterested in shooters from investigating the platform further.

From that respect, perhaps attracting the hard-core gamers first and foremost isn't such a good idea? I'm not sure. For developers, seeing high attach ratios is going to attract their custom. The downside is the reputation your console gets, as those you are most keen on it and talk about it the most, are providing a limiting sort of PR. If instead you attract a mish-mash of gamers, not hardcore and not buying games en masse, but all having different experiences and sharing those, maybe over the long term you're much better positioned to reach out to the masses? First impressions last, and it's an uphill struggle to turn a reputation around. If so, this is perhaps where Sony deserve credit. They've always been good for variety from their 1st party offerings and have built up a reputation for appealing to all and sundry. They're first titles are also showing diversity.

 

[archangelmorph]

"Definately" is a strong word.

PS2 has 384 shooters in gamespots database, out of a total of 2622 titles. Meaning 14,64%.
The X360 has 18%.

The X360 only having shooters is more of an illusion, or a stereotype, than it is a fact.

Gamespot's database lacks a great deal of titles released for the PS2 in Japan only..

So you see, the totle figure of 2622 titles is probably not the most accurate figure one could use in basing such a comparison considering the strength of the PS2 in Japan compared to the X360..

 

[TheChefO]

I don't think anyone's done a proper study of the European market, but what I feel is needed is diversity. People have a tendency to look at the top selling games in a market and decide that defines the interests and sets the agenda for what software needs to be produced, but in my guess, it's the smaller titles that make the difference. Every platform has racers, shooters, WWII games, StarWars games, and sports. If that's all you care for, you can grab any console. The differentiating factors are the other titles. Looking at Europe, SingStar, EyeToy, and Buzz have proven popular. But as well as that, there's all the unpopular games that count as well. Rub-a-dub and flOw might not sell a million, but they offer something unique to the few tens of thousands (or however many) that are interested. Then the choice is XB360 with Fifa, GTA and Generic-Track-Racer 202 without quirky little games that offer something out of the ordinary, or PS3 with Fifa, GTA and Generic-Track-Racer 202, and also Eye of Judgement, flOw and Rub-a-dub.

Then of course there's the marketting and price aspects. I don't know what Microsoft's reputation is across Europe, but my gut feeling is 'boo to MS!' They've provided 10 years of operating systems that crap out on people, while I don't know of anything they've done that has afforded them positive reputation. I've never met an Ordinary Joe in the UK who had something good to say about using computers. The only time I hear people say a computer is nice to use, they're talking about Macs. As for the XBox reputation, as I don't read up on the device, my only understanding of the platform is what I glean from general discussion. The top talked about games are often shooters, so even if XB360 has few shooters, it sounds like that's all there is to play on it. As for Live! Arcade, that may have lots of great little abstract titles for all I know, but all I hear about are nostalgia remakes with their ugly 80s graphics. Even if the platform is far more balanced and diverse than general consensus would have us believe, failure to inform the masses of that means the consensus persists. It's all very well saying 'XB360 has mostly shooters is a myth' but that myth won't go away unless the reality is communicated effectively! Of the TV adverts I've seen for XB360, they're shooters. Lost Planet and GRAW and GOW and ones I remember. I don't recall seeing any other ads.

I dare say something MS doesn't appreciate (which is an American stereotype!) is art. It's all loud, brash, and in-your-face. Quiet, subtle games aren't something you associate with the XB brand. Same with their adverts. It feels, to me at least, in my vague, never really paid much attention kind of way, that MS is an American company being American everywhere, as the stereotype would have us expect them to behave. What they need to do is have a European arm that is solely European, with European games studios writing software without any great concern for how things happening in Europe will be appreciated in the US. Sony, for example, have produced European titles released first (or exclusively) in Europe, that only later make their way across the Big Pond. You don't have MS working on anything European. The European studios MS does own are working on international titles, with a definite 'must work well with the big US market' slant. I mean, the UK developer Rare produced a game about Pinatas with a US TV series to accompany it! Pinatas may be all the rage in the US, but they mean nothing over here. The best Eurodev they have at the moment is Lionhead, which has a definite English touch to it's creations.

I'll add that of course these opinions are subjective! I don't read up much on platforms. I nose around websites and forums and hear what's intersting people on platforms, and have a look. In that regard I think I'm quite representative of the mainstream gamer. If I have any wrong ideas about what a platform has to offer, it's primarily because that platform hasn't communicated effectively in a way I'll pick up, producing titles that the users care to talk about. With the technology it's different because I actively research that. With the software libraries and functions, I osmose the chit-chat of the masses, so any wrong ideas I have in the above are probably equally wrong in the mainstream too, depending on where they look. Thus as well as producing a balanced system that's not all about million unit best sellers, but also just massive diversity, it has to be presented effectively as such.

Great post Shifty!

Lots of good info here. I agree with your "lack of subtle games" knock on xb360, however your wording implies that loud, in-your-face, brash, etc is not art or cannot be artistic. I'd argue that it can be and is considered art, just not the same type as the subtle games. Gears many people dislike for the machismo style they imploy, but it is a beautiful game. (in a depressingly morbid and macho way)

Personally I'd love to see a flood of quality platform games when the price drops to $200(core). As it is it's a bit expensive for kids and I imagine this is the reason the console has not been marketed to kids in most ways. Once it hits the sub $200 mark I believe it will be ready for these games like Sly Cooper etc.

Others have also pointed out that a larger userbase will enable quirky titles to sell well. Last gen, ps2 with 100m+ enabled risky game development as the probability to sell enough in this pool is much greater than a pool a third that size. xb1 did not have a large userbase so the catch 22 was if a quirky title was released it was likely to sell poorly due to the limited number of people that may be interested in said game which prohibited further quirky development on the platform. Hopefully this can be corrected with live arcade being the launch platform for quirky title expirimentation. They need to do a much better job in this arena though. A year out from launch and they are still dripping new games out at a once a week pace. Pathetic.

Shifty - is this the key to EU? Quirky games? Or are these just icing on the cake? What is the cake that made ps1&2 so tasty to EU?

FYI - Viva Pinata has no connection to any cultural phenomenon with pinatas in the states. It is just a quirky game that has not had the attention that it deserves... kinda like Okami or any other artistic game that is dificult to sell the idea on.

Great posts all around guys, good feedback here.

 

[Nesh]

I understand, but I think that if such a bundle was to be made (Fifa+WE+Football Manager+Forza2) bundle was made and sold at the standard EU price, then they would get a lot of sales because its just incredible value. They could make it a limited edition deal (maybe this is just the Japanese view) and I think they could sell at least half a million. At that price, with all those games, for a next gen console...if it doesn't sell, I don't know if they have any chance at all.

You mean 4 games bundled with each 360?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Shifty - is this the key to EU? Quirky games? Or are these just icing on the cake? What is the cake that made ps1&2 so tasty to EU?

What made PS1 and 2 so tasty? They were just all-round great systems! PS1 was the right product at the right time. Sony brought mainstream 3D and managed to do it in a way that was 'cool'. PS2 offered some unique experiences, in part to 3rd party titles along with 1st party. GT2 and GT3 were defining racer experiences for many a gamer. And while FIFA was offering the old arcade foot game, PES brought us 'real' football and that attracted people to the platform. Over time the PS brand has built up a momentum and snowballed, offering everything people want on the whole. If you were just going to buy one console, they made sense and were an 'easy' choice you didn't have to think about.

FYI - Viva Pinata has no connection to any cultural phenomenon with pinatas in the states.

Not a cultural phenomenum, but it's something that's very American that Americans know and understand and have at parties. Pinantas are pretty much uneard of in Europe. That shouldn't really stop the game selling of course, as you don't need to know what a Pinata is to farm them any more than you need to know what an Elebit is to zap it! But I think it's telling that the UK developer produced a very US-centric game tied in with a US TV programme. That to me is like Lionhead producing an American Football game, or Sony London (or whoever they are now) producing a Nascar game.

 

[TheChefO]

What made PS1 and 2 so tasty? They were just all-round great systems! PS1 was the right product at the right time. Sony brought mainstream 3D and managed to do it in a way that was 'cool'. PS2 offered some unique experiences, in part to 3rd party titles along with 1st party. GT2 and GT3 were defining racer experiences for many a gamer. And while FIFA was offering the old arcade foot game, PES brought us 'real' football and that attracted people to the platform. Over time the PS brand has built up a momentum and snowballed, offering everything people want on the whole. If you were just going to buy one console, they made sense and were an 'easy' choice you didn't have to think about.

I agree with what you're saying but that is an after the fact evaluation. At the begining of ps2's life it did not have the huge diverse library. The more I think about it the more I think it really boils down to one thing and one thing only, that you just brought up.

GranTurismo

Europeans admire a quality racer like any gamer, but seem more connected with this franchise*. The first game on ps1 basicly invented the genre of "many-car console-sim". The investment to create such a detailed and accurate game is huge, thus limits the number of pubs/devs willing to go head to head with a team that set the standard and continues to raise the bar.

MS & N would have to establish a new standard that is clear cut above GT to gain attention in EU. Otherwise, they will be worth a look, and perhaps purchase, but the desire* will still be with GT.

Football seems to be pretty even across the platforms (I'm probably wrong). If there were a similar deal to what EA pulled in the states where they locked exclusive rights to the NFL, this could turn the tables I imagine as well but I think this move would be too cost prohibitive.

*generally speaking

Not a cultural phenomenum, but it's something that's very American that Americans know and understand and have at parties. Pinantas are pretty much uneard of in Europe. That shouldn't really stop the game selling of course, as you don't need to know what a Pinata is to farm them any more than you need to know what an Elebit is to zap it! But I think it's telling that the UK developer produced a very US-centric game tied in with a US TV programme. That to me is like Lionhead producing an American Football game, or Sony London (or whoever they are now) producing a Nascar game.

Sorry to nitpick but pinatas are actually a Latino thing. Mexico brought the pinatas.
While most Americans do understand what it is, most do not have one at birthday partys or any other party for that matter.

I get what you're saying though. It was targeted at the US market and outside the demographic of EU & Japan. Then again, plummers throwing fireballs, jumping into pipes, and putting on a squirell suite is a bit outside the cultural understanding/demographic of the US too, but it worked!

 

[avaya]

GranTurismo

Europeans admire a quality racer like any gamer, but seem more connected with this franchise*. The first game on ps1 basicly invented the genre of "many-car console-sim". The investment to create such a detailed and accurate game is huge, thus limits the number of pubs/devs willing to go head to head with a team that set the standard and continues to raise the bar.

MS & N would have to establish a new standard that is clear cut above GT to gain attention in EU. Otherwise, they will be worth a look, and perhaps purchase, but the desire* will still be with GT.

*generally speaking

This is true. However there is hope for MS (not so much Nintendo since their market is now totally different, so they don't care) from the precedent set by PES vs. FIFA.

FIFA had the premier franchise status for quite some time, mainly due to the license. When Konami's International Superstar Soccer became Pro Evolution Soccer on PS2, people started to take notice of the better gameplay. PES looked like real football. FIFA looked like a joke. PES has been closing the gap to FIFA sales ever since and is probably right now a better seller. Everyone (including the actual players) used to play FIFA, now it seems like everyone seems to play PES. It took time but it happened.

No franchise will have an iron grip on it's genre forever.

 

[dobwal]

Yes, I was thinking that. It might become something of a self fullfilling prophecy. If hardcore shooter fans like XB360's shooters and buy lots of them, they'll attract more shooter fans and devs will be encouraged to develop shooters. Even if the library remains balanced, the perception of the library which become more entrenched in the shooter mentality. As more shooter fans buy an XB360 for it's limited but excellent shooters, and talk with their peers about the shooters they're playing, they'll both attract more shooter fans to the platform who tell their peers, and discourage people disinterested in shooters from investigating the platform further.

From that respect, perhaps attracting the hard-core gamers first and foremost isn't such a good idea? I'm not sure. For developers, seeing high attach ratios is going to attract their custom. The downside is the reputation your console gets, as those you are most keen on it and talk about it the most, are providing a limiting sort of PR. If instead you attract a mish-mash of gamers, not hardcore and not buying games en masse, but all having different experiences and sharing those, maybe over the long term you're much better positioned to reach out to the masses? First impressions last, and it's an uphill struggle to turn a reputation around. If so, this is perhaps where Sony deserve credit. They've always been good for variety from their 1st party offerings and have built up a reputation for appealing to all and sundry. They're first titles are also showing diversity.

I believe that diversity is a function of userbase. The more market you have the more diverse your library. The reason being the higher your userbase the greater the likelihood your console can support a game that targets a sub group of gamers. Games that have broad appeal such as shooters are typically going to make up a large portion of third party offering for a console in its infancy.

The larger the userbase the smaller the proportion of hardcore gamers which means shooters will probably always be a viable genre on the 360. But the more console that the 360 sells the more likely developers will be willing to try and sell different type of games on the 360.

Furthermore, userbase in relation to region has an affect on diversity. Obviously if your console has an healthy market share of all regions then your console is going to be targetted by third party developers with games that suits the tastes of individual markets. The 360 isn't a well supported console in terms of japanese specific games and thats a result of its limited marketshare in japan. Thus the 360 will always have a heavy tilt toward genres that typically sell well in the Western markets. Furthermore, japan devs that target games for the 360 will do so with the intention of targetting the markets that the 360 has healthy representation.

If MS shows an ability to compete well in Europe then its likely that more games that target the taste of European gamers will be released. An initial release of European targeted games will be the result of trying to create demand. But diversity aiming towards European tastes will be the result of high sales.

 

[_xxx_]

Duh, how to make a console more successfull in Europe, that's a serious question?

Make it cheaper and the games as well while you're at it. Very wise, heh?

Seriously, all three will have their share of interesting games in all genres and a few top-notch stunners to pull the sales. With all the multiplatform stuff going on, people will rarely go for a console based on one or two must-have exclusive titles. Especially if their competition sells the HW for half the price and has an additional gimmick (Wiimote) which makes it much more interesting for the casual gaming bunch (kids, older people, girlies,...). As already mentioned, my 57-year old mother sometimes comes over just to play some tennis on my Wii and that's the next best thing to a miracle, trust me

 

[dobwal]

With all the multiplatform stuff going on, people will rarely go for a console based on one or two must-have exclusive titles.

The more developers go multi-platform the more affect individual exclusives will have on consumer choice.