enter 'Hollywood' - ATI's Graphics Processor for Revolution

[Andy]

How does Square fit into all of this? Will Square have a PS3 launch title? Will anyone outside of Japan really care about FF? Seems to me the MAJOR reason why games on PS2 sell fairly well is due to the fact it has a nice lead in installed base. This lead allowed a bigger game library and a bigger game library sustains hardware sales. This has been argued forever already. Why some individuals keep hanging on to bigger installed base as some kind of advantage nextgen is baffling...
Nah, I just think you don't have valid rebuttal like always...

You can't just say that their success is mainly due to their lead in install base though. Sega launched Dreamcast about a year before PS2, it had many awesome games, but we all know the rest of the story.

Now XBox launched in America roughly a year after PS2 launched in America, and in my honest opinion if Halo wasn't a launch title (or exclusive to XBox), the console would probably have been dead before it hit the ground.

Lets jump back a little in time, to the 32/64bit era. Sega and the newcomer at the time Sony, launched their consoles within pretty similar time frames, sales were pretty close until FFVII was released, then sales for PS1 started skyrocketing. Now enter N64 in all honesty I believe that it was the biggest disappointment after how awesome the SNES was. I don't believe it was as much that Sony launched PS1 before Nintendo launched N64, it was more that Nintendo made key mistakes such as "cartridge based system" and losing one of its key third party developers, Square.

Now enter Gamecube, in my opinion awesome console, marketted very poorly, and losing Rare to Microsoft was a short term success but long term a costly mistake. You only have to look at games like Metroid Prime 1 and 2, Resident Evil 4 and the new Zelda, to realise the amount of potential the Gamecube has.

In my opinion, in order for Microsoft to become "Top Dog" over Sony, next generation it really needs to become successful in the Japanese market, not just sales wise, but needs to acquire key Japanese developers too, recent news articles would suggest they are trying to do just that, time will tell if their strategies will be successful. Likewise Nintendo really needs to learn from its previous mistakes and design a sleek console (inside and out), proof of "revolutionary" concept, attract a lot more 3rd party developers and publishers, and above all else try to shake the image that their console is purely for kids. If neither company is able able to do these things, then I believe that Sony will remain top dog.

 

[Phil]

DeanoC

Believing there is much loyalty in Square to Sony (besides the ownership issues now...) is a dream.

Huh I'd love you to point out to me where I or anyone used "loyalty" as an argument. I think you must be day dreaming.




Maybe you missed the post directed at you:
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=477493#477493

and in continuation to others:
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=477503#477503
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=477524#477524
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=477539#477539


It would be very much appreciated and in favour of the quality of the discussion, when (a) reading carefully what the person you're replying to is debating/arguing and (b) replying constructive in a way that it extends the discussion. Having to repeat every single post is tiresome, especially when you have a nice forum that lets you re-read them easily or could be done in the first place before jumping into something without knowing its context.

 

[DeanoC]

It would be very much appreciated and in favour of the quality of the discussion, when (a) reading carefully what the person you're replying to is debating/arguing and (b) replying constructive in a way that it extends the discussion. Having to repeat every single post is tiresome, especially when you have a nice forum that lets you re-read them easily or could be done in the first place before jumping into something without knowing its context.

Lets go back to your original post

PS: Thinking Final Fantasy will be launching on anything other than where its core userbase is (the PlayStation platform) is an insult to Square and their ability to make viable decisions.

Your argument is that its insulting to Square to suggest they would launch anywhere that isn't there core userbase.
My reply was simple a retort that is exactly what they did when they saw it as the right move.
They obviously will launch on a different vendors platforms, IF they feel there userbase will switch.
So at this stage if Square were to think that there userbase were to buy MS or Nintendo, you can bet good money thats where FF will go. Now whether they will make that decision is a different argument.

There is no loyalty (well actually there is due to stock issues) between Sony and Square. Square will do whatever is best (its feels) for itself...

I'm not going to comment any further, I think most people here understood the original comment I made, I'm sorry that you obviously missed the point (I even add the scarcasm comment to make it clear what I was getting at!).

 

[London Geezer]

^ ^ Agree.

 

[one]

My thoughts on Square & Microsoft situation -

1) Square can launch games on any platform. For example, FF games on mobile platform like NTT cellphones.

2) But the main series in the FF? (FF10, FF12) At least in Japan it makes no sense to port it to the current Xbox platform when even the GC is out. They have to see how Xbox2 goes.

3) Network strategy. Square has FF11 on the PC platform, so MMORPG is suitable for multi-platform and Square is preparing a new franchise aside from FF & DQ. But Square has PlayOnline network, so MS have to concede to Square if they want Square on board for the Xbox Live, just like to EA.

4) New market is not only in the Western hemisphere. Square recently announced they will expand business in China. There RPG portfolio is expected to be more suitable to China and Korea.

5) This is only my speculation, but I guess it's not in the nice relationship between MS and Square right now - since MS failed to buy Square when it started the Xbox business years back, MS have been trying to headhunt Square staff and many developers already moved from Square to Microsoft.

 

[blakjedi]

My thoughts on Square & Microsoft situation -

5) This is only my speculation, but I guess it's not in the nice relationship between MS and Square right now - since MS failed to buy Square when it started the Xbox business years back, MS have been trying to headhunt Square staff and many developers already moved from Square to Microsoft.

That last comment is VERY interesting...

MS should have bought Enix as a counter to square if they werent going to pick square up... Then again MS coulda/should/woulda picked up THREE maybe four developers this past generation and they would have had the next gen in the bag.. they are

1) Konami - aside from Sega I think Konami are the best developers ever
2) Square Enix - one or the other would have given them the RPG toehold they needed
3) Take Two interactive - GTA is killing everything including FF here in America

4/5/6 would have been sega, nautghty dog and capcom IMHO...

The cost of these three devs would have been worth the entire XBOX effort...

However, I think what MS is instead trying to do is help the best designers from complanies defect and support them and their ideas as startups supporting the Xbox Platform...

 

[Nexiss]

It's not like PS3 launches and magically automatically has Square's core userbase. Every system has a userbase of 0 until they sell a system and gamers will go where the games are. If Square decided Nintendo or Microsoft 's systems fit their needs more, I don't think they would have any trouble getting sales.

 

[Iron Tiger]

PS: Thinking Final Fantasy will be launching on anything other than where its core userbase is (the PlayStation platform) is an insult to Square and their ability to make viable decisions.

*cough* Spirits Within

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It's not like PS3 launches and magically automatically has Square's core userbase. Every system has a userbase of 0 until they sell a system and gamers will go where the games are.

I don't think that's the whole truth. I think there is such a brand awareness regards PlayStation that people's (the masses, not educated gamers) perception is they can rely on PS to deliver lots of game choice. It did in iteration 1 and iteration 2. It seems fair to assume the same in iteration 3.

For release titles, developers have to make a choice where they think they will get dividends. There are three consoles going to be launched, each starting with a userbase of 0. If you wait for someone to buy a console before writing any games, there'll be no games so no consoles sold. Instead you need to preempt the market and predict where the best sales will be so you can hope for the larger userbase.

Given the phenominal succes of PS with PS1 at over 100 million units and PS2 at 80 million (how do these figures compare wtih Genesis/Megadrive and SNES?) and a promise of backwards compatibility, purchasing PS3 will seem like an inevitable upgrade to many of these buyers I reckon. If I were a dev and had to choose only one platform, I'd pick PS.

 

[passerby]

*AHEM*

It's 'Square-Enix', or SE. Have some respect for the entity.

I just thought of something funny:

PS: Thinking Final Fantasy will be launching on anything other than where its core userbase is (the PlayStation platform) is an insult to Square and their ability to make viable decisions.

*cough* Spirits Within

The funny bit is, the guy that made that decision just made another decision to work actively on Xenon.

With regards to this Square-Enix issue...

SE will, and can support whatever platform they want to. One of the few studios that can figuratively move mountains, and move their audience with it. Many factors which may affect their decision have been brought forward in the discussion. However, I'm quite willing to buy lots of lottery to bet that at least for the next 2 years, their main choice will be Sony's system.

 

[j^aws]

...
SE will, and can support whatever platform they want to. One of the few studios that can figuratively move mountains, and move their audience with it. Many factors which may affect their decision have been brought forward in the discussion. However, I'm quite willing to buy lots of lottery to bet that at least for the next 2 years, their main choice will be Sony's system.

That's just plain 'dirty tactics'...trying to put money where your mouth is, in a middle of a discussion! ...Shame on you!

That money would prolly be safer if you're specific to numbered, flagships i.e. DQ and FF.

 

[blakjedi]

NE way I am really interested in the specifications of Hollywood considering its long development time... based on recent history would it be wise to surmise that Hollywood is the R400 chip (ala 2005)?

It seems that whenever IHV's roadmap slips its either related to an acquisition (ATI +ARtX) or a major OEM purchase (MS deving the NV2A caused teh delay of the GF3, and now Sony going with NV may have been related to the slip of the NV5X)

The timing seems right... the technology seems right, the development slip seems right...

I know everyone will say that R400 = R500 but that may not really be whole truth. Maybe the R400 led to the R500 but they could be divergent in ways that are proprietary to the OEMS who want thos parts (R400 = Nin, R500 = MS) and the lessons learned from both will go into the PC markt chip R600.


Just a hypothesis...

 

[Phil]

DeanoC:

Lets go back to your original post

I am well aware what I wrote in my first post - if you bothered to read the replies directed at you entirely, you should have come across the part where I further explained the reasoning I applied to form the stance that I brought forward in the original post you just quoted. No matter how you look at things, not in one instance did I use "loyality" to draw any conslusions - which pretty much leaves me in the dark as to why you still keep hanging on to it.

Please, if you wish to engage in something, do take the necessary effort to read what people are writing (that would include that second post directed at you, which outlines the reasons I see as very unlikely that a shift will occur, it's linked in my last post). It makes discussion so much easier and less rendundant.

To sum it up quickly:

They obviously will launch on a different vendors platforms, IF they feel there userbase will switch.

Thank you for stating the obvious. No one said any different - in fact, I thought this was common-sense (this is beyond3d after all). If you re-read my posts and especially the ones directed at you, you might just find that I wasn't questioning the possibility all together, but rather realistic chances of a switch occuring given todays market situation. I also summed up why a switch was in favour 8 years ago onto the PlayStation brand and why a switch in the future [at the moment] is not likely.

Of course, *anything* can happen - Xbox2 could be the next 400 million console selling reaching a near 100% market dominance - but honestly, how far would we get if we were to include any imaginary situation? Surely the benefits of keeping this based around realistic expectations is somewhat obvious...

 

[wco81]

Did anyone notice that in the announcement for the Broadway and Hollywood chips, Iwata said the DS would go online and that the Revoluion would have Wifi?

DS has online servers in place for playing around people around the world (most console online games have region-specific servers, probably since console games are region-coded while handhelds aren't) and online play would be free.

Iwata didn't say Revolution would have online support but what is the point of Wifi on a console if not online? Sure you can lug the console to someone else's place (probably need to take a TV too) to play LAN games but that's a very unlikely scenario.

 

[Kalin]

Yep, he definitely meant online.

Here's an interview with Reggie Fils-Aime by PennyArcade, that touches this point, and pretty much confirms it (look for "wireless internet play"): http://www.penny-arcade.com/news.php3?date=2005-03-09

 

[Megadrive1988]

NE way I am really interested in the specifications of Hollywood considering its long development time... based on recent history would it be wise to surmise that Hollywood is the R400 chip (ala 2005)?

It seems that whenever IHV's roadmap slips its either related to an acquisition (ATI +ARtX) or a major OEM purchase (MS deving the NV2A caused teh delay of the GF3, and now Sony going with NV may have been related to the slip of the NV5X)

The timing seems right... the technology seems right, the development slip seems right...

I know everyone will say that R400 = R500 but that may not really be whole truth. Maybe the R400 led to the R500 but they could be divergent in ways that are proprietary to the OEMS who want thos parts (R400 = Nin, R500 = MS) and the lessons learned from both will go into the PC markt chip R600.


Just a hypothesis...

I am gonna go out on a limb and predict that Hollywood has elements from R3xx, R400, R520, R500, and exclusive next-gen Flipper-compatable elements.

 

[jvd]

Just want to say something about square and ms

I think its safe to assume that at launch the odds of final fantsy on a system other than ps3 are very high .

Look at it this way . For ms they can have up to 10 million systems or more sold by the time the ps3 launches in america . The dev kits have been out for awhile meaning square can already be in the fairly late stages of of development .

So the only thing really needed is for ms to offer them a big deal to get them on board mabye a few million up front or let them skip on royalitys or made let them make some other games with low royalitys . This way ms gets a final fantsy before the ps3 is even launched world wide. Square wins because of the deal and most likely the only big named rpg out at the time , sony doesn't really loose much as they aren't in all the markets yet and ms wins because they have a huge rpg title on the system years ahead of the original xbox rpgs .

Now what i would like to see done from a microsoft launch is thi s

Sports line up from ea

A racing sim of high quality

A fps aside from a halo 2.5 or something , something new ..

a rpg of high quality . Not a kotor as its to soon for a 3rd one and part 2 left a sour taste in peoples mouths . Mabye a 20-30$ fable lost chapters with improved graphics ? or something bigger

A doa fighting game


Fill the rest in with 3rd party games and I think they will have a sucessfull launch

 

[blakjedi]

Just want to say something about square and ms

I think its safe to assume that at launch the odds of final fantsy on a system other than ps3 are very high.

Nahh... Sony wont allow for that... Square can do a chrono trigger or something but not FF. Never happen.

Now what i would like to see done from a microsoft launch is thi s

Sports line up from ea

Check!

A racing sim of high quality

Check!... PGR3 plus something else

A fps aside from a halo 2.5 or something , something new ..

Perfect Dark 0 and HL2 remix plus someother unknown FPS...

a rpg of high quality . Not a kotor as its to soon for a 3rd one and part 2 left a sour taste in peoples mouths . Mabye a 20-30$ fable lost chapters with improved graphics ? or something bigger

I think thats what windwalker studios and Elder Scrolls are for...

A doa fighting game

Guaranteed!

Fill the rest in with 3rd party games and I think they will have a sucessfull launch

 

[jvd]

Nahh... Sony wont allow for that... Square can do a chrono trigger or something but not FF. Never happen.

Sony has no say . FF is a square-enix property and thus it can go where they want like the gamecube

 

[Carl B]

Nahh... Sony wont allow for that... Square can do a chrono trigger or something but not FF. Never happen.

Sony has no say . FF is a square-enix property and thus it can go where they want like the gamecube

Well, with a seat on their board and a fair deal of stock ownership, Sony may not have a say, per se, but they would have input.