Engaget: 360 v2 'Zephyr' - HDMI, 65nm?, 120gb HDD (picture)

[Shifty Geezer]

That older model is now $444 at Amazon and the newer one (HD-A2) is even cheaper, $409. The 360 add-on is $219 (but currently sold out at Amazon). For those who want to watch HD DVD but not really interested in games, 360 is not a cheaper solution.

You seem to have forgotten your argument. You said 'how will existing HDDVD drive owners feel.' That's because to get HDMI they'll need a replacement SKU. Well with the external HD DVD drive, they can get the XB361 with HDMI. That'll cost say $400, ignoring any tradeins, and of course they can sell the old XB360 for some of that money. Sure it's an expensive upgrade, but it's doable and still cheap then buying a standalone player (assuming prices don't drop dramatically). Furthermore there's no need at the moment to get HDMI. They can carry on with their existing playback, if the quality isn't markedly better from HDMI, which seems to be the case, and get an HDMI XB360 when they're $150.

The only other options for MS are

1) They shouldn't have launched until HDMI 1.3 was ready to cover the glut of HD formats, which would have had a long delay and lost their important first-platform advantage.

2) Don't provide any HDMI version and prevent users having that option, and get grief from 6-stars about how XB360 doesn't have HDMI

3) Introduce HDMI along with HD DVD and other options when viable and provide an upgrade path.

3 is normal practice and perfectly fair, catering to everyone. I don't understand what there is against this move. An improved XB360 was always on the cards in the same way consoles get revisions (What about PS2+? What about those who bought a PS2 without the quieter operation? What about the introduction of the PS2 slimline with inbuilt network adapter, and the subsequent discontinuation of the old network adapter that makes them hard to come by?). Technology moves on. You get what you pay for when you buy it. There's no point in grumbling when a new improved flavour comes out.

 

[one]

You seem to have forgotten your argument. You said 'how will existing HDDVD drive owners feel.' That's because to get HDMI they'll need a replacement SKU. Well with the external HD DVD drive, they can get the XB361 with HDMI. That'll cost say $400, ignoring any tradeins, and of course they can sell the old XB360 for some of that money. Sure it's an expensive upgrade, but it's doable and still cheap then buying a standalone player (assuming prices don't drop dramatically).

Well, I'm not really interested in that complicated scenario that involves with trade-in and such. It's very simple, actually. This winter, someone wanted to watch HD DVD at home. This person had 2 options, buying a stand-alone player or 360 with the add-on. 360 with the add-on is a bit more expensive, but he thought the ability to play games is a good bonus and bought a 360 with the add-on. Then at CES he knows a new Xbox 360 model with HDMI is coming. It's not strictly about the monetary value. Most gamers who bought 360 this winter would feel the same, but for those who bought 360 to watch HD DVD this sentiment may be stronger.

 

[Dave Baumann]

Those to options aren't changed with the advent of an HDMI XBOX, should there be one. Its not as though HD DVD's will sudeenly stop working!

 

[INKster]

Those to options aren't changed with the advent of an HDMI XBOX, should there be one. Its not as though HD DVD's will sudeenly stop working!

Maybe not "stop working", but who knows about working at 960x540, instead of 1280x720p or 1920x1080i/p, due to the dreaded Image Constraint Token ?
It's there already.

All that Hollywood has to do is to say "go", and the analog path turns into a EDTV, instead of true HDTV.

 

[RobertR1]

Maybe not "stop working", but who knows about working at 960x540, instead of 1280x720p or 1920x1080i/p, due to the dreaded Image Constraint Token ?
It's there already.

All that Hollywood has to do is to say "go", and the analog path turns into a EDTV, instead of true HDTV.

Call me when ICT is actually activated, K? until then, let's stop creating paranoia. And if you and others are losing sleep over it, please stay away from such products that could jeopardize your purchase. No one is forcing you to buy this product and the console works just as well without it.

 

[INKster]

Call me when ICT is actually activated, K? until then, let's stop creating paranoia. And if you and others are losing sleep over it, please stay away from such products that could jeopardize your purchase. No one is forcing you to buy this product and the console works just as well without it.

There's no need to be aggressive...
The ICT flag is there, that's a fact.
So now i can't talk about an obscure part of the -mandatory- AACS spec, just because it's not good for consumers (me included) ?

And there's no need for you to tell me about how good the console works over component cables. I can see it by myself at home, thank you very much. .

 

[scooby_dooby]

Well, I'm not really interested in that complicated scenario that involves with trade-in and such. It's very simple, actually. This winter, someone wanted to watch HD DVD at home. This person had 2 options, buying a stand-alone player or 360 with the add-on. 360 with the add-on is a bit more expensive, but he thought the ability to play games is a good bonus and bought a 360 with the add-on. Then at CES he knows a new Xbox 360 model with HDMI is coming. It's not strictly about the monetary value. Most gamers who bought 360 this winter would feel the same, but for those who bought 360 to watch HD DVD this sentiment may be stronger.

That's true for some small portion of people who feel they 'need' HDMI. The vast majority will probably be just fine using 720p/1080i over component (even older 1080p sets) and 1080p over VGA.

Alot of the drive's purchased were probably by owners who bought the console earlier, and to them this is just a $200 cost, with a free HD-DVD and remote, I don't think anyone can complain when the cheapest alternative for these same people would be $500.

BTW - in your scenario, the person should regret buying the console w/o HDMI. Not the add-on which is universal. Of course, if HDMI was so important to them, maybe they didn't buy it in the first place.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Maybe not "stop working", but who knows about working at 960x540, instead of 1280x720p or 1920x1080i/p, due to the dreaded Image Constraint Token ?
It's there already.

All that Hollywood has to do is to say "go", and the analog path turns into a EDTV, instead of true HDTV.

As I said though, when that happens, those with old XB360s can get a new one for $150, or maybe even a cheap HD DVD standalone for $75. For now, those who bought an XB360 + HD DVD drive get HD DVD movies every bit as good as those who'll get an HDMI port (which might be 9 months from now, people!), sans perhaps some fancy audio. That's not a huge sacrifice to get HD DVD movies now instead of waiting 12 months until an HDMI flavour of XB360 comes out.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Alot of the drive's purchased were probably by owners who bought the console earlier, and to them this is just a $200 cost, with a free HD-DVD and remote, I don't think anyone can complain when the cheapest alternative for these same people would be $500.

Actually, in One's scenario, why would anyone get an XB360 just to play HD DVDs if they don't want the console? The standalone HDA1 is cheaper. If all they wanted was movies, they'd have got that. The XB360 path was a smart move to get a more all-round entertainment combo, so you can be sure the HD DVD addon is perceived as a cheap addition to an already owned console.

 

[RobertR1]

There's no need to be aggressive...
The ICT flag is there, that's a fact.
So now i can't talk about an obscure part of the -mandatory- AACS spec, just because it's not good for consumers (me included) ?

And there's no need for you to tell me about how good the console works over component cables. I can see it by myself at home, thank you very much. .

The studios have agreed to hold off ICT until 2010 and no one has even hinted to use it. Trust me, if there was even a hint, there would be a shit storm stirring on sites such as avsforum.

Also, the ICT flag in not on current discs so it'd only be applicable to the discs after the fact. Let's say 2010 is the date and HD DVD has taken of. There are 35-40million standalone players in the market. At this point the the 250-300k add on users with a component only 360 will be left in the cold but to CE and content companies this is likely an acceptable loss. By this time the early adopters of HDTV (likely the early adopters of HD DVD also) have cycled out their players and receivers with more HDMI inputs. As Shifty points out below, the owners of these component only 360's have the option to: cycle out their 360 for a HDMI one, get a new stand alone player, or connect the USB drive to a HTPC and run it from that.

I do not forsee HD DVD studios using ICT until 2010 or more. I'd be more worried about region coding, if anything.........

 

[one]

Actually, in One's scenario, why would anyone get an XB360 just to play HD DVDs if they don't want the console? The standalone HDA1 is cheaper. If all they wanted was movies, they'd have got that. The XB360 path was a smart move to get a more all-round entertainment combo, so you can be sure the HD DVD addon is perceived as a cheap addition to an already owned console.

There are people who buy a thing just because it looks a nice bargain Even though what they wanted at that time was to watch movies, if it comes with games, it's a potential. So they buy 360 thinking they are smart while assuming no imminent hardware update. However, Microsoft kindly offers another smarter option for consumers.

 

[mrcorbo]

Although we can't see the entire motherboard, I can't see another HDMI transmitter chip in there - it looks to me like Ana/HANA are both the scalers and output chips (i.e. it contains the DAC and monitor/CE device timing modes). In the case of HANA it looks like rather than tacking on a 3rd party HDMI chip they have integrated the HDMI transmitter into the Ana functionality and its doing the lot. It'll be interesting to see if there is indeed more chips on that motherboard or thats it and HANA now has an HDMI TMDS [and HDCP] in there as well.

As far as Ana goes, what critical, and still isn't answered, is whether it has a DVO in order to output a post scaled digital stream.

Yeah, what he said. :smile:

If I were MS and I were planning an HDMI option for current consoles, though, I'd think now would be the time to make it known. Otherwise the uncertainty of an HDMI-equipped 360 maybe being "just around the corner" could affect sales.

 

[StefanS]

I want to once again remind everyone to discuss in a civil way and manner. Personal insults or bickering will not be tolerated.

EDIT: Reopened after pruning

EDIT2: exported the HDMI discussion from the CES thread to this one

 

[SteveC]

Didn't the Microsoft guys in this arstechnica article flat out say that an HD-DVD drive will NOT be integrated into the 360?

http://arstechnica.com/articles/headstart.ars

Steve

 

[Sethamin]

Yeah, what he said. :smile:

If I were MS and I were planning an HDMI option for current consoles, though, I'd think now would be the time to make it known. Otherwise the uncertainty of an HDMI-equipped 360 maybe being "just around the corner" could affect sales.

Actually, I think it's the exact opposite. If they confirm an HDMI equipped 360, then sales will plummet until that version of the console actually appears. So unless it's introduction is imminent (as in, tomorrow/next week imminent), they're best off to deny or not to say anything. It's basically the same scenario as price drops - you want to wait until the last possible moment to announce it.

 

[mrcorbo]

Actually, I think it's the exact opposite. If they confirm an HDMI equipped 360, then sales will plummet until that version of the console actually appears. So unless it's introduction is imminent (as in, tomorrow/next week imminent), they're best off to deny or not to say anything. It's basically the same scenario as price drops - you want to wait until the last possible moment to announce it.

You misread what I wrote.

I said that they If they were planning on producing an HDMI upgrade accessory for the already produced consoles that now would be the time to reveal it.

 

[Sethamin]

You misread what I wrote.

I said that they If they were planning on producing an HDMI upgrade accessory for the already produced consoles that now would be the time to reveal it.

That I did. Sorry about that. However, assuming this rumor is true, I would say that would kill the possibility of an HDMI accessory. If they could do via a cable, why would they rev the hardware to add it? More ports cost more money, and hardware redesigns costs even more money.

It'll be one or the other (HDMI cable or hardware rev), but not both.

 

[mrcorbo]

That I did. Sorry about that. However, assuming this rumor is true, I would say that would kill the possibility of an HDMI accessory. If they could do via a cable, why would they rev the hardware to add it? More ports cost more money, and hardware redesigns costs even more money.

It'll be one or the other (HDMI cable or hardware rev), but not both.

I don't agree with that, actually. Having the functionality in-built is much more preferable all-around than having to add it with an accessory given the marginal added cost (if it added $50 to the cost to produce the system it would be different). This in no way affects whether an accessory can or will happen.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

The only significant reson (other than a marketing check-box) to have HDMI added to the 360 is the recent IPTV announcement.

Any company using the 360 as the "receiver" for IPTV serivce will want HDMI built into the console so that the end user is assured of getting "broadcast" HD content to the screen. If the IPTV broadcasts have the flag turned on, you'd need HDMI receiver and output device to view it at full resolution. I would assume that any UPTV provider will have 360s with the HDMI port to give to customers as a receiver.

Having said that, I still do not believe the current 360 hardware can output a HDMI signal, and MS's announcement made it pretty clear to me that IPTV is a software solution that existing 360 users could also take advantage of. Which raises the question to me: what do the existing XBox 360 users with non HDMI ports do? The options as I see it would be...

1) Do nothing...they won't be able to watch broadcast IPTV (in high definition) if the broadcast flag is present
2) MS and/or the IPTV service provider offers a trade-in program where an x-box user is entitled to "upgrade" to an HDMI version of the hardware with a valid IPTV subscription. (Either free of charge or a nominal cost).
3) Somehow, MS works a deal with the powers that be which allows current 360 owners to view high-def "flagged" content even without HDMI.

Personally, I think number 2 is the most likely.

 

[scooby_dooby]

then sales will plummet until that version of the console actually appears.

LOL, I can't believe you actually believe HDMI is such an important feature that sales would 'plummet', it's a totally ridiculous suggestion. You might see a tiny little dip, that's about it.

Now a pricedrop, that's another story.