Dueling Translations Of Video Kojima's Thoughts On Critics Cause Confusion

Discussion in 'Console Gaming' started by Nesh, Nov 14, 2019.

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  1. Nesh

    Nesh Double Agent
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    You are taking a relative description of a tendency from my post and you are trying counter argue with an absolute (i.e no American appreciates art, deep concepts???). This is your problem. Not my post's.

    Also your emotional response and insistence to force your own misintepretation on me has made you picky with what you read and ignored what I also mentioned later in my very same post, that this tendency is becoming also prevalent in EU as well and there is a similar gap between generations. But I suppose your personal offence and misinterpretation got stuck and isolated in a perceived absolute description of every single American. Give up. Since I explained it to you multiple times already what I meant, there is no point pushing it
     
    #41 Nesh, Nov 15, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  2. Scott_Arm

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    No, I'm arguing against what you view as the relative tendencies of American culture. You're also avoiding the questions I have about what you're trying to distinguish between American, European and Japanese culture. You say American culture is relatively more consumerist than European and Japanse culture. Is it? It's not apparent to me that it is. You say there is some shared culture understanding between Europe and Japan, informed by the lengthier history of their cultures (never mind that this isn't possible because American culture wasn't created from a vacuum, and it's one of the most culturally diverse countries), and whether you mean that in relative or absolute terms, I'm not clear on what that is, or how it relates to Death Stranding and why Americans would be less likely to enjoy it. So you think European and Japanese cultures are relatively more appreciative of poetry, literature and social concepts? Again, what is the basis of this assumption? These are your arguments, not mine. Defend them, or don't, but if you don't then I think your argument is shit.


    I think you have a view of American culture that's basically informed by a stereotype that isn't real. I think your original post is basically junk, and instead of defending it by arguing the merits of the points you were trying to make, you dodged it and claimed I didn't understand what you were trying to say. Your explanations have been to walk back on pretty much everything you wrote to a more reasonable position. I don't know why you think pointing out generational differences justifies or defends any of your positions on cultural differences.

    I'm not even American. I've experienced more culture shock traveling to some parts of the United States than I have traveling to France. If you've ever been to Atlanta, West Texas, rural Ohio, Los Angeles, New Orleans, New York City, you'd realize how vastly different and culturally diverse those places are.
     
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  3. Nesh

    Nesh Double Agent
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    I am done arguing with your imagination and assumptions.
     
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  4. Ethatron

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    Would it help the discussion to reflect a bit about the meaning of the word "culture" when you/we are using it?
    https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/al/gl...lturalskills/global_pad_-_what_is_culture.pdf

    It seems intrinsic to it's meaning that it describes conventions and differences in conventions. It also seems natural that tolerances towards violations of conventions are included in "culture".

    Death Stranding is possibly unconventional. Would there be cultural differences towards accepting or rejecting this unconventionality? (Using the term "Art" in the discussion is not helpful I believe, brushing a cat's hair in some way can be "Art", I don't think that is really what's this about)
     
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  5. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
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    SoT is unconventional by all means. It never sparked this type of discussion about why it didn’t set the world on fire.
     
  6. orangpelupa

    orangpelupa Elite Bug Hunter
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    We should send this thread to kojima.

    This thread have:

    "deep philosophy and culture discussion of unconventional and confusing art, from different perspectives and mind-set... And there's also a cat in the discussion"
     
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  7. Ethatron

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    What is SoT? Sea of Thieves?

    Groups of people have different conventions, so "conventional" has no absolute meaning. For an D&D player (sorry dude) conventions can be broken rather easily. Unconventional doesn't mean that something didn't happened before or is unique (although maybe it's used in this sense? no native speaker here). In my (sub-)culture "conventional" often means boring, because the mainstream is boring, "conventional" here means there is a lingering stability in the mainstream which makes everything similar to each other and frictionless, and this produces an expectation in the mainstream-latching people that stuff follows or has to follow this convention. I welcome everything which is (in good faith) disruptive towards my own personal conventions, because I want to be nonjudgemental, respecting and kind towards others and also games.


    I have the feeling the character of the public discussion about something is connected to the size of exposure. I don't really understand what's going on though. e.g.:

    You can make an indie game, nobody speaks bad about it, 5 guys like it and it's all mellow. You make a somewhat larger game and things start getting oddish, the fringes of opinions become more fierce (it sux, it's the best whatever). When you make a large game and label AAA on it, then opinion and reviews start to get a character as if someone's life depend on it. Same with Handheld and Hollywood.

    So ... getting back to culture ... if you make a small game it's only interesting for a small sub-culture, not much exposure outside of it, nobody bothers. The larger the target demographic of a production is (or unvoluntarily: the larger the demographic of the audience of a reviewer is, never mind you never targeted them), the more sub-cultures and cultures it touches, the more ... fighting over right or wrong?

    Sometimes an indie game is pulled into a complete different sphere of mindsets and (unrightfully) demolished on the public market place like in medieval times. Sometimes a really stupid boring buggy high end production is defended to the teeth (Todd, o Todd), and somehow manages to become mythical (it's all a fabrication, in reality it's very different).

    So, there seems to be this regular belonging to some group thing in it, the rallying in the group, all the connected irrationality and not giving in etc., basically all the social standard stuff, which is somewhat sad.

    Looping this back to DS, maybe the public discussion about the game and the expectations where different in NA and EU and SEA. Maybe cultures react different to a dissens. It seems to me a possibility, that the game and it's contents where not seen from the same level of disconnect from others (other reviewers, other players, expectations of oneself or others ...) in these populations. Maybe it's because of the media culture differences and how the public culture relates to it's own media culture (groupthink etc.).
     
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  8. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
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    I agree. English was fine. I was not referring to the negative discussion as a result of say the exposure level.
    Sea of Thieves was also given many poor player reviews. Often cited as nothing to do. Boring. But the difference as to why this thread started and not started with SOT was imo due to the fact that Kojima came out to defend the title.

    and that’s sort of what I was trying to get at. This thread wouldn’t exist if Kojima didn’t say anything. He should know his game isn’t for everyone. Perhaps he doesn’t have thick skin; I don’t know. But many games that get poor reviews don’t tend to spark this particular type of thread; mainly because most people aren’t trying to defend their work.
     
  9. Nesh

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    I think he explained why his game is not for everyone
     
  10. TheAlSpark

    TheAlSpark Moderator
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    Rated K for Kojima
     
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  11. ToTTenTranz

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    The concept that you don't have to eat all the food even if you're free to do it.
    The concept that not everything comes at a price in dollars.
    The concept that personal GDP isn't a valid measure of a state's success.

    Just from the top of my head.


    I've been to the US a couple of times, have american family/friends and there are things I love about american culture, but there are some things where american culture in general puts people acting like a child who got crowned king. A little bit as if you instantaneously gave enormous power to someone who wasn't properly taught how to use it.
    And that is IMO a reflection of their young culture.
     
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  12. BRiT

    BRiT (>• •)>⌐■-■ (⌐■-■)
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    I don't think it is. Britain's culture is much older and yet they did just as bad or even worse than America with BREXIT and Boris Johnson and right now it looks to make the same exact mistake on their upcoming election.
     
  13. see colon

    see colon All Ham & No Potatos
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    Keith Lemon for PM!
     
  14. Nesh

    Nesh Double Agent
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    It is somewhat the same in some aspects. The UK still has residuals of the nationalist myth of the once "great benevolent super empire" that reached out to the whole world, brought civilization/education, tamed the savages, developed their economy, incorporated technological advancements of the industrial revolution. The US is the current super power whose status is threatened, while the UK dreams of it's past glorious days. Both countries view their selves in some form of superiority with the recent historical events to support it and the perception that it is lost because of other countries. The US sees the downfall of the American Dream on immigrants, Russia and China, the UK sees it's downfall on immigrants and the EU.

    edit: I also think that countries that have experienced more often wars, occupations and revolutions in their own soil may have sensitized them more towards humanistic and cultural virtues in relation to those which have not but instead had more the role of the expansionist superpower.
     
    #54 Nesh, Nov 26, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2019
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  15. Scott_Arm

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  16. see colon

    see colon All Ham & No Potatos
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  17. Scott_Arm

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    Fortnite is the money king. It makes more money than even some of those weird asia only microtransaction games. Pretty sure Leage of Legends is a distant 4th on the list. Fortnite #1.
     
  18. Nesh

    Nesh Double Agent
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    Aaaaahhh.....so many kids not studying and quarreling with their parents
     
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  19. see colon

    see colon All Ham & No Potatos
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    I'm aware of Fortnite's dominance, I'm more impressed Apex beat it in downloads.
     
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  20. ToTTenTranz

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    I don't think there anything impressive about Fortnite not being the most downloaded game.
    The game has been around since 2017, so it's very close to reaching its total addressable market.

    Everyone that would be willing to play fortnite is already playing it. And it's a buttload of people, which is why they're dwarfing everything else in DLCs.
     
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