Interview with Kojima and Nomura > here
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Bite the hand that feeds them? They sell games, and the only hand feeding them is the buying publics. If they don't honestly believe PS3 is the platform of choice, why are they developing for it? Why don't they swap to a different platform instead? Surely these remarks can be considered independant, because these aren't first party studios and they can choose who they work with and develop for. And if PS3 doesn't appease Kojima or Nomura, they can take MGS and FF to XB360 and Wii and leave Sony weeping at their loss.Powderkeg said:
Shifty Geezer said:
No one is questioning how pleased they are with the system.
I am not questioning "the power of ps3".
I am questioning the root of his statements.
To get to the root of the statement:
Ps3 = cream of the crop (Movies at the theater)
360 = not as powerful/more diverse games (dvds and other stuff)
Wii = even less powerful/even more diverse games (everyday tv)
Does he mean:
perception?
budget?
game quality?
My original comment questioned and targeted the concept of a baseline budget/quality for ps3 games which would be above 360 and wii games. I'm not saying this is impossible. I'm saying it's looking very improbable. If it were true I would not be against it one bit. Especially when one considers the initial cost differential, it would help justify ps3 to consumers/potential consumers.
But history has shown that Sony has not done this in the past and has not said they would do so for ps3. So if this baseline standard for games is nonexistant, then the comment is aimed at what exactly? Specs of the machine right? Well color me ****** but I call bs on that one.
I can understand where Sony has been coming from in this regard. They have a very expensive machine to justify and a competitor that is poised to steal their marketshare. So while it is expected from someone like Kutaragi, it is quite questionable from a 3rd party dev when most other independant devs have basicaly said "you won't see a difference graphically between ps3 and 360". Why would he come out and speak against this statement? I am not calling him a liar. I'm saying perhaps he was misinformed or perhaps he is "leaning" for advertising dollars etc.
To me, it sounds like he feels the PS3 can achieve more. Higher quality, better audio, (lower framerateTheChefO said:
) movies versus SD DVDs. To produce a movie costs more than to produce a TV programme, on average, though you can get some very cheap movies and some very expensive TV programmes. As for calling it out as BS, it's a man's personal opinion. If he's had experience developing for both consoles (has he?) then he's in a better position to comment than any armchair hardware reviewers, though of course he'll still be biased by preferred methods and tastes. If he's only had experience of PS3, he's jumping the gun somewhat.Maybe he is misinformed. Maybe he doesn't appreciate what the XB360 can manage. Or maybe he's used them both and has a more valid opinion than most? You're likely to find parties on both sides of development thinking their machine is 'teh roxxors' because they're using it and liking it. As for whether one really is better than the other, that won't come out until a couple of years in. Any opinion either way might prove right. Until then, everyone's allowed their own speculation. And as an independant developer who's certainly in a position to try out any platform he wants, he's free to develop on the platform of his choice for his own reasons and communicate those reasons, if in somewhat abstract ways, when asked for them, no?
I dunno. Either I'm too trusting, or everyone else is too cynical, but the idea that everyone who has anything good to say about any platform must only be doing so because they're 'on the take' and there's no such thing as independant opinion, I find hard to swallow. Even in 1st/2nd party devs like Ninja Theory, you have comments based on developer opinion that aren't paid for by Parent Company dollars. If nAo says he likes using the SPE's, it's because he likes them, and not because though he hates the buggers Sony are paying him to present a nice view of the console whenever he's on a forum!
Shifty Geezer said:To me, it sounds like he feels the PS3 can achieve more. Higher quality, better audio, (lower framerate
Maybe he is misinformed. Maybe he doesn't appreciate what the XB360 can manage. Or maybe he's used them both and has a more valid opinion than most? You're likely to find parties on both sides of development thinking their machine is 'teh roxxors' because they're using it and liking it. As for whether one really is better than the other, that won't come out until a couple of years in. Any opinion either way might prove right. Until then, everyone's allowed their own speculation. And as an independant developer who's certainly in a position to try out any platform he wants, he's free to develop on the platform of his choice for his own reasons and communicate those reasons, if in somewhat abstract ways, when asked for them, no?
I dunno. Either I'm too trusting, or everyone else is too cynical, but the idea that everyone who has anything good to say about any platform must only be doing so because they're 'on the take' and there's no such thing as independant opinion, I find hard to swallow. Even in 1st/2nd party devs like Ninja Theory, you have comments based on developer opinion that aren't paid for by Parent Company dollars. If nAo says he likes using the SPE's, it's because he likes them, and not because though he hates the buggers Sony are paying him to present a nice view of the console whenever he's on a forum!
Agreed great post! Very impartial and balanced. While I agree developers will all have their preferences for their own reasons. Some may be "on the take" but I expect every individual who is developing for one of these consoles will have their own personal favorites for whatever reason. Now if it were stated in this way I would have no problem with it. However it is not "I like ps3 because well i'm comfortable with xyz" or "working with Sony" or whatever other reason. Instead, he clearly outlines each system in a segment of the market. Either development budget wise, development time wise, or capabilities wise.
It's one thing to say I like ps3. It's another thing to outright call it superiour. From Sony ok. From "independant" ok as long as this is a consensus. From what I've seen the consensus is roughly equal. And certainly close enough to not make sweeping statements as those^.
To put it bluntly - where was he then last gen? Team ninja has basically said they go where the system power is as it allows them to fully realize their games. They went from dc to ps2 on to xbox. Xbox was clearly superior (graphically) to ps2. If Kojima felt so strongly about fully realizing his games or pushing limits or "the movie theater experience", where was he last gen? ...and please don't bring up the ... MGS port.
What say you?
Shifty Geezer said:
Yes. Or do you actually believe that PS3 advertisement that they called a MGS4 trailer was done for free?
Last time I heard most 3rd party major franchise exclusives are that way because the console manufacturer assists in funding the production of the game. Not all of them, but more often than not if a major 3rd party game is exclusive it's because someone paid for it to be exclusive.
And even if the exclusive isn't paid for, it's still a bad idea to put down the one and only system you are making your game for, regardless of how you feel about it or what you've learned since starting production of the game. After all, making comments that make the system look bad might hurt it's sales, which would reduce the pool of potential customers who would be able to buy your game.
An honest and unbiased developer is one who is making multiplatform games, and thus has no loyalties to any specific system.
So yes, saying something bad about the only system your game will appear on is biting the hand that feeds you. One way or another you are relying on those hardware sales to generate enough customers for your game to sell well, and saying something that reduces the sales of the hardware hurts your own bottom line.
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Did he call PS3 superior? As far as I could tell, he likened it to the cinema. I dislike the cinema. I don't like the excessive noise, the terrible flicker, the crowds of people. I prefer to watch movies on DVD at home. To me, if PS3 really is like the cinema, and XB360 is like watching a DVD, I'd chose the latter.TheChefO said:
What I get is that Kojima is saying the PS3 has more scope for epic titles. That can be explained simply by the BluRay drive. To make epic, richer games, you can fill up 50 GB, but that'll cost money. On XB360 you can create smaller games that are cheaper. On Wii you create smaller, simpler games still, even cheaper. As an artist, he wants to spend money. We can produce much better movies than 50 years ago by spending loads more money. $50 million can be expected to produce a generally better movie than the same produced with $5 million. So as an artist, he's saying he's glad he has the scope to go all out and spend lots of money to create titles that he feels aren't suited for XB360. Why is that? BRD? Standard HDD? Cell works well for him? I dunno. But I didn't get that he was saying PS3 was superior, only different. Are movies superior to TV programmes? No, they're just different. Different experiences. Sometimes you want to watch a 2 and a half hour deep and emotional movie. Sometimes you want to watch an episode of Cheers. The mediums exist together. That's how I view his comments. Now I disagree on Wii being the only source of the cheap, quick 'TV programme'. Live! Arcade is showing excellent potential there. The range of simple through to epic games on XB360 is likely to be complete. As for what exactly that movie experience is, I'll have to wait and see. Epic games will appear on all three machines, but maybe PS3 has got something else to contribute to make for a 'bigger' experience?
As a rough summary of the machines, I can see the analogy, and the sort of thing I'd expect in a quick interview. They had to be likened to something, and seeing as Kojima likes movies and wants to produce movie-like experiences, makes sense for him to draw from that.
Dunno that I agree with that. If you're contracted into a machine, for sure. But ERP has suggested a port isn't too hard or costly. If a machine proves to be crap, what's stopping a swap to another platform? Okay, that's different when one machine has 100 million consoles and the other has 20 million, but this early on, especially when the alternative has the market advantage, I don't see any reason for Kojima to be unfairly biased in his comments of PS3. If he personally prefers XB360 he can write for it. If he's chosen PS3, surely at this point that represents an unprejudiced preference? Has anyone forced him to work on PS3 against his will, and now he has to promote the machine and say nothing bad about it, despite not liking it, because he needs the system to sell and create a userbase to sell his software too? Is any dev in that position, forced to falsely extol a machine over the rivals because they have to work on it and want the machine to sell?Powderkeg said:
Shifty Geezer said:
Perhaps it is over analizing but he did not say: ps3 = epic movie & 360 = movie.
He said ps3 = movie theater and while those movies will come to dvd(360) they will not be the "big screen experience". So while I see where you were going, I don't think he meant that as he seemed to be focusing on the experience (tech) not the content or length of content.
Robert.L said:
lol your telling me it is?? Yes I'm telling you it's not. Or at least not enough to make a difference. They each have their abilities - pros and cons. Overall roughly equal. Much more so than last gen.
This is my point - If this was the true driver for mgs this "special dinner" then umm ... wow how convenient for both him and Sony that they both have this exclusive relationship for games making and their philosophies fall in line perfectly at the right time! Last gen no big deal this gen uber important.
... am I the only one who sees through this?
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scooby_dooby
Legend
I think people see whatever they want to see in these comments. We know that technically they are extremely close, both using 3.2ghx IBM cores, both with 512mb of Ram, both with comparable GPU's.
We also know Kojima stated his game could probably be done on 360.
That leads me to believe his comments refer mainly to price/desire. The PS3 is more expensive, it's a 'night out at the movies' whereas the cheaper 360 is less of a treat, i.e. watch movie at home.
I don't think his statements have anything to do with the power of the systems, it just doesn't make sense. He's too intelligent to believe there is that much of a gap between the two, the only large gap is in featureset (bluray) and price, and I think that's what he must be talking about.
We also know Kojima stated his game could probably be done on 360.
That leads me to believe his comments refer mainly to price/desire. The PS3 is more expensive, it's a 'night out at the movies' whereas the cheaper 360 is less of a treat, i.e. watch movie at home.
I don't think his statements have anything to do with the power of the systems, it just doesn't make sense. He's too intelligent to believe there is that much of a gap between the two, the only large gap is in featureset (bluray) and price, and I think that's what he must be talking about.
TheChefO said:
Perhaps if you handle me your ****** glasses i'll see it also.
And kojima already stated couple of times why mgs4 will be exclusive for ps3 .
And your suggestion that kojima is Sony's pr puppet is funny , has he not stated a few times he may make a exclusive original IP for other consoles , he is certainly planning a game for the revolution who knows perhaps he has also a game in mind for 360 , if history shows something it's certainly shows that the guy and his team worked on other consoles before and aren't biased .
currently i'm trying to find a lovely quote from koji about the EE which hopefully hopefully will simmer you down a bit.
scooby_dooby said:
Actually he ment he could have chosen 360 to make the next MGS generally speaking but some thought he was refering specifically to technical capabilities, something that has been discussed already.
Which is once again another proof that people see whatever they want to see only this time from the opposite direction.
mckmas8808
Legend
scooby_dooby said:
You are 100% correct. It's sad that some people here can't see or understand this. Your right it's the featureset (the machine as a whole) that Kojima is comparing.
Some effects might not port too well
http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=65323
Well, the suits camo might not be so easy to do on the 360 so it seems.
http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=65323
Well, the suits camo might not be so easy to do on the 360 so it seems.
Shifty Geezer said:
Public demands, publisher demands, time constraints (Got to learn how to program on an entirely new system first) staffing demands (If you've been making exclusive games, chances are no one in your team has experience programming on the "other" system.) Once you've committed to a system as an exclusive platform for your game, it's not so easy to switch.
The Playstation systems have made him rich. Surely he's biased towards the brand that has made him so much money over the past decade. Wouldn't you be biased towards a system and fan base that made you rich? I sure would.
Correction, he isn't creating a userbase, he's catering to a well established fan base. If he switched systems then he would have to create a new userbase.
Now, is anyone "forcing" him to work on the PS3?
I'll answer that with a question of my own.... How many copies of the Metal Gear Solid franchise have sold on Playstation systems? How many fans and loyal customers is he expected to please?
Depends on how strict your definition of "falsely" is. Is talking about the strengths while completely ignoring the weaknesses of a system being false? Is using obscure analogies instead of clearly expressing your opinion on a subject being false?
I mean, if he really believes the PS3 is simply the best system why doesn't he just come out and say precisely that and do so in a way that leaves no question as to what he meant?
But to answer your question, yes. Many developers (Or at least their PR team) find themselves in a position where they have to hype up the system that they are producing games for.
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