Dueling Translations Of Video Kojima's Thoughts On Critics Cause Confusion

Discussion in 'Console Gaming' started by Nesh, Nov 14, 2019.

Tags:
  1. Nesh

    Nesh Double Agent
    Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    11,887
    Likes Received:
    2,248
    Sorry but I am not in the mood to respond to all kind's of assumptions including an effort to convey the idea that I talk in absolutes
     
  2. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    6,101
    Likes Received:
    5,222
    I also don't understand why these discussion always end up in logic fails when it's just broad statistics regarding cultural tastes.

    Colloquially saying "japan prefers sushi, america prefers steaks, canada prefers poutine" only means there's a bigger market for such type of food. Most doesn't mean all, few doesn't mean none.

    120 guns for 100 citizens in america is a statistic. We can draw corellations from it. That's not saying all americans love guns. But nobody should be surprised about calling this a major cultural difference. If I was selling handguns, I know where the biggest market is.

    There's been more than one thread like this and nothing good ever comes of it.
     
    Nesh likes this.
  3. Scott_Arm

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Messages:
    13,754
    Likes Received:
    4,566
    I have no issue with people saying population groups have different tastes because of their culture. I do have issue with the suggestion that because certain populations do not seem to be as responsive to this game, that it must be because they are less cultured, or less interested in art broadly. The first argument is reasonable. The second argument is elitist bullshit.

    I don't know how you could write the following and think I'm misrepresenting or misconstruing your point.

     
    BRiT likes this.
  4. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    9,233
    Likes Received:
    8,035
    Sort of the 2 statements being made by Kojima in this case are:
    Axiom 1:
    Death Stranding does not belong to any genre of game, thus the genre is a "stranding genre"; then no country has preference for it because the product did not exist.

    Axiom 2:
    Goes to say US cannot appreciate what he made because they are blinded by their preferences while EU can because their society is more open and understanding of these things.

    But all reviewers have actually identified that this game is completely something different in all of their reviews. This part is not amiss; reviewers are fully understanding of what he created is something different. His review scores are in the 80s. I don't see the disconnect here between North American preferences and the product he made thus he made a poor statement here; which is what we're seeing this discussion bottom out to.

    Obviously this where we degrade into the grey area about whether or not you see games as art or not. Or if we are talking about games entering the "Serious Games" genre, which I don't think this is. I'm don't have a position on this one yet unfortunately. I understand "Serious Games", games like Plague Inc, and the incorporation of Anti Vaxxers was brilliant.

    I'm not sure if I have fully comprehended games as a art yet, in some situations I see it, in others I'm not sure.

    But if we venture down this path with respect to Death Stranding; how should players/reviewers feel about this title. They pay the AAA price. It's been sold as a ? but they are getting a ?. Should they be upset that they didn't get what they expected or should they embrace this new game expecting to be ? but getting # instead.

    I'm not sure what the right answer is.

    Overall I think he would have been better off just not saying anything at all. The reviews were already doing a good job in communicating that this game was going to be different.
     
    BRiT and AzBat like this.
  5. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    6,101
    Likes Received:
    5,222
    You paraphrase his statements a bit to amplify a negative conotation, I don't read it as such. I agree with the gist of it. On the surface, Europe and Japan tend to be more open to philosophical content in games. The last few times we had more grand themes development (detroit, etc) without being intertwined into a classical shooter pleasing a wide audience (tlou), they were dismissed as pretentious and walking simulators by some, and praised by others who wanted to discuss those themes.

    Just from the trailers it looked like it would be the same thing all over again. We even saw reviewers being angry about the embargo lifting requiring them to finish the game before posting it (how the hell do you judge the most important aspect, the arcs closures, without finishing it?). Games are often treated as entertainment instead of art. We can see it's more respected elsewhere. It's not a clear distinction but it's visible both in reviews and sales.
     
    ToTTenTranz and Nesh like this.
  6. Scott_Arm

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Messages:
    13,754
    Likes Received:
    4,566
    @MrFox American's have more guns than Europeans and Japan. I'm not sure they actual have more of a love for violent entertainment than Japan or Europe. Maybe more interest in first person shooters, though first person shooters do very well in Europe. Many of the best players in the most competitive shooters come from Europe. Now if you imagine all of these "shooter" people as one monolothic type of person that loves guns and doesn't read, the NRA stereotype, then maybe you can quickly come to the conclusion that maybe American doesn't like Death Stranding as much because they like guns and shooter games. That argument is full of massive logical holes, because who says people can't like shooters and also like art films, literature, poetry? These things are not mutually exclusive. The entire argument that people who predominantly play shooters would not be able to understand or enjoy a game like Death Stranding is built on stereotypes. Then if you follow the logic of Nesh's post, things are even more muddy because you have to believe Europeans have some higher form of understanding that's ingrained in their culture through time, so younger cultures like the USA (as if there's one mono-culture in the USA) would not have the time to develop the sophistication they need to understand Death Stranding. There's no logic in that argument. It's all externalizing some kind of narrow world view based on stereotypes and ignorance. What does the American gamer look like? I'm sure you could find trends, but you'd most likely find it covers massively different demographics in terms of culture, gender, age, political views etc. But sure, Americans don't like Death Stranding as much because America is only 244 years old, consumerism and guns.
     
    AzBat and AlphaWolf like this.
  7. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    16,859
    Likes Received:
    5,999
    Wait are we talking about the same Europe that often make monkey sounds and such towards Black soccer/football players and chant at them in stadiums to go back to the jungle where they came from? Something that would never be tolerated in any stadium in any sport within the US?

    Broad stereotypes cut both ways.

    Or how about Japan's love and fascination with guns and military hardware which goes far beyond what you will find in the US? While gunpowder based firearms are difficult to own, there are far more publications dedicated to guns and military hardware in Japan than there are in the US. And these are usually right next to the video game publications.

    As well, there are MANY shops that sell lots of pellet based military weapon replicas in Japan, far more than the US has gun shops in proportion to population. Basically showing that the interest in owning guns isn't any less in Japan, it's just harder to own a real one. As well there are overt and sometimes extreme portrayals of violence in film, television and games that comprise a larger percentage of content produced than in the US. That somehow makes them understand Death Stranding better?

    But then again, Stereotypes are justified by people that believe in them.

    Me, after travelling around the world almost my entire life? People everywhere are far more similar than the people living in those countries would like to believe.

    Perhaps it's because I straddle 3.5 different cultures (Japanese, Chinese, American, and Pacific Islander) that I see things differently than most.

    Regards,
    SB
     
    #27 Silent_Buddha, Nov 14, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
    PSman1700 and AzBat like this.
  8. Nesh

    Nesh Double Agent
    Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    11,887
    Likes Received:
    2,248
    So owning gun replicas in Japan, means Japanese are equally violent and feisty about gun ownership as their US counterparts? I suppose the lower violence and crime rates in Japan are a stereotype too? https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Japan/United-States/Crime

    In Japan crime rates are so low that even in large cities like Tokyo children move around and go to school without a guardian. The other side of this is that children grow with the perception of independence and as members of the larger group, for which they offer their help. This independence allow them to participate in the society.

    In the US when the NY mayor imposed a Soda Ban to reduce obesity it was deemed unconstitutional while it is a known problem that the US has some of the worst obesity problems in the world https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sodaban-lawsuit-idUSBRE96T0UT20130730

    On the other hand in Japan they did this while historically they are some of the least obese populations in the world. https://www.mic.com/articles/84521/...ontroversial-way-that-wouldn-t-fly-in-america

    There are significant cultural differences and anthropology studies signify this.
    Not all of it is stereotype even if we want to see it that way.
    Thus said that doesnt mean we cant find all kinds of people in every culture.
    Also in my initial post I didnt simply point in differences between regions but also at the cultural gap between generations.
     
    #28 Nesh, Nov 14, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  9. Scott_Arm

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Messages:
    13,754
    Likes Received:
    4,566
    I don't think anyone would argue that there aren't real cultural differences between nations, or sub-groups of people within nations, or even that stereotypes can be true. The problem with your initial post is that it's complete nonsense. You have a thesis that you can't prove, which is that younger countries are less cultured and more consumerist, which leads to them not liking one video game. Your argument has zero ground to stand on, as it's based on generalizations that exist only inside your head.

    In 2018, what were the top selling games in Europe? Looks like it was Fifa, Call of Duty, Spiderman, Mario Kart, Red Dead Redemption 2, God of War, Mario Party, Mario Odyssey, Assassin's Creed, GTAV. Detroit: Become Human was brought up earlier in this thread. It doesn't look like it even charted in Europe. It sold only 4 million copies worldwide. In fact it's likely that a very good portion of the sales came in North America.
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/453141/best-selling-console-games-in-europe/
    http://www.vgchartz.com/yearly/2019/Europe/

    What are the top games on PC in Europe? Fortnite, PUBG, Counter-strike, league of legends, dota. Pretty much the same games as North America.

    Look at the charts for Japan. It's basically a flood of Nintendo, Pokemon, Monster Hunter and franchise games.
    http://www.vgchartz.com/yearly/2019/Japan/

    There is no region in the world where gamers buy "games as art" en mass. It's your delusion, based on your misunderstandings of what other people in different parts of the world are like.
     
    PSman1700 and AlphaWolf like this.
  10. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    6,101
    Likes Received:
    5,222
    I see no claim that art games are sold "en mass" anywhere.
     
  11. Scott_Arm

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Messages:
    13,754
    Likes Received:
    4,566
    So let me follow the logic: American gamers are not as interested in Death Stranding because they're less-cultured consumerists more interested in Hollywood and less interested in poetry, literature and social meaning/commentary. The proof for this is that the rest of the world doesn't buy "art" games in any significant quantity either ...
     
    BRiT likes this.
  12. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    6,101
    Likes Received:
    5,222
    Uh no, I see nobody saying that either.

    You used the top popular games as an example. That applies everywhere. However shooters don't sell much in japan, and death stranding sold record numbers. David Cage games did sell very well in europe and japan. It's not all cut and dry. That doesn't remove the fact that shooters sell extremely well in US, and RPGs sell extremely well in Japan.

    At least we stopped seeing the weird argument saying the xbox doesn't sell anywhere except the US because everybody is racist against america. Instead of simply looking at the game offering and figuring out the games were mostly aligned with american tastes.
     
  13. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    6,101
    Likes Received:
    5,222
    Oh god, I got sucked into the bullshit thread. Bye!
     
  14. Scott_Arm

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Messages:
    13,754
    Likes Received:
    4,566
    Detroit become was the 52nd highest selling game of 2018 in Japan, right behind The Snack World: Trejarers Gold and Great Detective Pikachu. It was the 29th highest selling game in Europe. The previous years COD WW2 outsold it in 2018, and the xbox and PS4 version of Black Ops 3 outsold it. It actually looks like North America was selling nearly as many copies as Europe with half the population. So what does it matter that that shooters sell well in the USA?

    Also, all of my posts are in response to Nesh, and he is saying what I'm suggesting.
     
  15. Nesh

    Nesh Double Agent
    Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    11,887
    Likes Received:
    2,248
    You insist in deliberately missing the point, ignore my previous answers and you are making me repeat myself.
    Demographics consist of all kinds of people, and the size of the various groups proportionate to the population of a certain region vary.
    So there are games that appeal to the mass market everywhere equally and there are games with certain characteristics and themes that are bound to appeal to bigger groups in some territories and smaller groups in others due to cultural differences. Death Stranding may not be the mass consumed game like Fifa, but the size of the market group for which it appeals may vary across regions. If the market for COD, Fifa, Fortnite is larger than the Death Stranding market in all regions is irrelevant and doesnt change the point I raised earlier.
     
    #35 Nesh, Nov 15, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  16. ToTTenTranz

    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    10,617
    Likes Received:
    5,179
    Did Kojima refer to all americans or made a remark about the US market, which somehow got mistranslated into a personal attack towards all americans?


    Regional preferences on games' genre, violence rating, nudity rating, etc. are very well known by the publishers. I'm pretty sure Kojima has access to these numbers, and I'm also sure Sony foresaw who this game would appeal to when it was still in early stages of development.



    Honestly, the greatest thing about Death Stranding is that Kojima actually managed to finish a game from ground up in 3 years.
     
    Nesh likes this.
  17. Scott_Arm

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Messages:
    13,754
    Likes Received:
    4,566
    This is a far more reasonable take than what you actually wrote in the original post, which is just plain garbage.
     
  18. Nesh

    Nesh Double Agent
    Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    11,887
    Likes Received:
    2,248
    I think your emotional response is what interpreted it to garbage instead of what it really is
     
  19. Nesh

    Nesh Double Agent
    Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    11,887
    Likes Received:
    2,248
    US Market of course. Nobody talked with absolutes but there is risk in being interpreted that way in an effort to describe the market since it is connected to the demographics, experiences, habits and perception.
     
  20. Scott_Arm

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Messages:
    13,754
    Likes Received:
    4,566
    Your words, not mine:

    I'm very curious to know what concepts you believe the Japanese and European cultures share a deeper understanding of versus the culture of the USA, why you believe the American culture did not grow to appreciate those concepts, why that difference can be explained by the age of those cultures, why you believe the usa is more consumerist than say France or Japan? How does your last point about some people not caring about "poetry" and "literature" or deep "social meanings" relate to cultural differences, or is it not meant to? Explain it to me, because what you've written looks a lot like an attempt to generalize the culture of the USA as something less sophisticated and less appreciated of art than that of Europe or Japan.

    What you've posted later on in the thread doesn't look too similar to what you originally posted, and which you seem to refuse to own.
     
    AlphaWolf, AzBat and BRiT like this.
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...