Dueling Translations Of Video Kojima's Thoughts On Critics Cause Confusion

[Nesh]

Duelling Translations Of Hideo Kojima's Thoughts On Critics Cause Confusion

https://www.kotaku.com.au/2019/11/d...-kojimas-thoughts-on-critics-cause-confusion/

I suspect what he meant. I think he understands the cultural differences of the mass market of each territory.
And it must be very hard not to state his opinion without somewhat indirectly and unintentionally offending. But I think he is right.

In particular the Japanese culture, especially his generation and prior have a deeper understanding of particular concepts. They are deeply embedded with experience, social interaction, long history and all the things that define their culture. Europeans have a lot of understanding for these concepts as well because of it's longer history. The longer the history the richer the culture and the understanding or acceptance of concepts. On the other hand the US is a much newer society, shorter history, most of it's culture was created "recently", it has more the element of immediate "consumption", is more affected by the Hollywood action spectacle, and it's society is in relative terms more entangled with consumerism. He sees the fascination for first person war games as a side effect and as an example that carries what he wanted to explain about the US market. They did not grow to appreciate these concepts.

The sad thing is that I ve noticed that the younger generations in EU lose grasp of these concepts too because as we "progress" the world is entangled more in pop-culture and consumerism. I see a gap between me and previous generations and an even bigger gap between me and the newer. If MGS2 was released today or generations later it would have got less appreciation than it did back when it was released on the PS2.

We can see these gaps also in music. Compare old school rap with today's rap. When it started it contained the experiences and struggles of the black people now it's money, guns, drugs and chicks.

Lets not forget that Hideo Kojima sees gaming as a serious artistic medium and treats it with respect almost like it is literature. I think he is the closest to Hayao Myiazaki we ever got in gaming, mixed with fascination for Hollywood movies. Not everyone cares about "poetry" and "literature" or deep "social meanings"

 

[Scott_Arm]

So the argument here is people who aren't interested in death stranding are not the type of person that cares about poetry, literature or deep social meanings? They're the kind of person that likes consumerism and shallow uncultured experiences? Lol, that's some of the most elitist dumb-fuckery I've read on a gaming forum. People like different things. Get over it.

 

[BRiT]

I find that [Kojima view] rather shallow and pedantic.

 

[bgroovy]

And it must be very hard not to state his opinion without somewhat indirectly and unintentionally offending. But I think he is right.

Especially for him, where so many are so eager to willfully take offense.

So the argument here is people who aren't interested in death stranding are not the type of person that cares about poetry, literature or deep social meanings? They're the kind of person that likes consumerism and shallow uncultured experiences? Lol, that's some of the most elitist dumb-fuckery I've read on a gaming forum. People like different things. Get over it.

No, the implication is that lots of gamers expect a game to be pleasure dispensers and react negatively to anything that attempts to deviate from that philosophy. I don't think there's anything wrong with recognizing that people play games for different reasons and the way that complicates trying to quantify game "quality".

 

[BRiT]

I thought Stereotyping is wrong. Why is it now acceptable in this situation?

 

[bgroovy]

Because this is demographics.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Because this is demographics.

very scientific

 

[Scott_Arm]

No, the implication is that lots of gamers expect a game to be pleasure dispensers and react negatively to anything that attempts to deviate from that philosophy. I don't think there's anything wrong with recognizing that people play games for different reasons and the way that complicates trying to quantify game "quality".

Read Nesh's post, read my post and then re-evaluate your reply to me.

 

[iroboto]

I'm not really sure if this thread will go places. We're pretty much treading the grey line on a very large debate on whether games should be considered art. Even though legally video game are considered art and is protected as such in many countries now; it is still hotly contested whether video games can reach the same impact of understanding what it is to be human - in the same heights as traditional fine arts.

Though the following quote by Roger Ebert is strongly contested; what I'm trying to say is that this debate is wide and large.

One obvious difference between art and games is that you can win a game. It has rules, points, objectives, and an outcome. Santiago might cite [an] immersive game without points or rules, but I would say then it ceases to be a game and becomes a representation of a story, a novel, a play, dance, a film. Those are things you cannot win; you can only experience them.

— Roger Ebert[33]

Interestingly

In a 2006 interview with US Official PlayStation 2 Magazine, game designer Hideo Kojima agreed with Ebert's assessment that video games are not art. Kojima acknowledged that games may contain artwork, but he stressed the intrinsically popular nature of video games in contrast to the niche interests served by art. Since the highest ideal of all video games is to achieve 100% player satisfaction whereas art is targeted to at least one person, Kojima argued that video game creation is more of a service than an artistic endeavor.[39]

He's definitely welcome to change his stance, no issue with that. I would; based upon what he's said earlier above, and with what he's saying in 2006. I'd ask him what his goal is for Death Stranding, trying to achieve 100% player satisfaction, or to achieve art which is targeting at least one person. If its the latter, he should just say it. Take the same path as Flower etc.

I'm going to bow out of this discussion, curious to see what's written though.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Because this is demographics.

Which is stereotyping.

IE - lumping groups of people into a category regardless of what they actually do, believe in, act, carry themselves, etc.

The same thing, but one has negative connotations while the other doesn't. And depending on a person's stance on a subject one will choose to use one or the other.

Demographics does try to gain some legitimacy by providing percentages sometimes, but it still paints groups of people in broad strokes.

And when it comes to comments like in the OP, it's obviously just stereotyping. There's no research or even polls used to justify the categorization of various peoples.

Even more so when you consider that back in the early 19th century, Europe was considered far more consumerist than the fledgling US which was far too busy trying to establish itself.

Consumerism is a reflection of a Nation's wealth, not its history. Wealthier nations consume more. Period.

Regards,
SB

 

[Nesh]

So the argument here is people who aren't interested in death stranding are not the type of person that cares about poetry, literature or deep social meanings? They're the kind of person that likes consumerism and shallow uncultured experiences? Lol, that's some of the most elitist dumb-fuckery I've read on a gaming forum. People like different things. Get over it.

Thats not the point. Kojima was referring to territorial differences/territorial reception, not gamers that like it and gamers that dont which is what you were referring to. There are gamers that liked or did not like the game everywhere but some territories received it better and some did not according to him. Secondly my post is not referring to gameplay mechanics and game design, but the themes and concept of the game. And I am pretty sure region analysis is probably done by the marketing department of the company which I ve at least seen it happen in other industries.

But you are proving my point that it is hard not to point background differences without unintentionally irritating someone who will misunderstand it and turn the argument somewhere else.
It would be interesting if someone took the time to make a statistical analysis and check with numbers that a reception of certain content isn't uniform across territories.

 

[orangpelupa]

if someone took the time to make a statistical analysis and check with numbers that a reception of certain content isn't uniform across territories.

we can do that with YouTube.

VPN to various country, open YouTube trending in a private window.

 

[Sigfried1977]

Yeah. because Japanese gaming culture is all about trying and accepting new things. You know, the place in which damn near identical Dragon Quest, Pokemon and Atelier games have been dominating the sales charts for decades. The place in which all the more forward looking developers (like From or Capcom) are forced to cater to Western markets because their stuff doesn't sell at home.

Is it really so hard to believe Death Stranding of all games might not be for everyone? I'm with Jim Sterling on this game, by the way: when it isn't boring it's irritating. (and me and him are both European)

The most surprising thing about this reviews debacle is that it's not happening more often. I mean how many movies or albums are reviewed 100% positively?

 

[Nesh]

Yeah. because Japanese gaming culture is all about trying and accepting new things. You know, the place in which damn near identical Dragon Quest, Pokemon and Atelier games have been dominating the sales charts for decades. The place in which all the more forward looking developers (like From or Capcom) are catering to Western markets because their stuff doesn't sell at home.

Is it really so hard to believe Death Stranding of all games might not be for everyone? I'm with Jim Sterling on this game, by the way: when it isn't boring it's irritating.

Again, he is not talking about gamers that did not like it and gamers that liked it. He is talking about territorial reception.
Yes some game concepts and themes can be uniformly well received everywhere. Then there are themes and concepts that are better received in some places than in other places. Just as many western games are not well received in Japan. And guess what. They are the successful western shooters.

https://www.wired.com/2010/09/western-games-japan/

 

[Sigfried1977]

But there are plenty of US gaming sites that gave the game great reviews. 90 from Gamespot. 100 from EGM. It's just not IGN for a change.

Heck, I even heard such nonsensical ideas like it wasn't as well received in the US because some people might have had a problem with the idea of dispsable fetuses due to their religious stance on abortion. This is obviously idiotic given how the gaming outlets are all staffed by people who'd probably go out and protest on the White House lawn for post natal abortions.

 

[Nesh]

But there are plenty of US gaming sites that gave the game a great review. 90 from Gamespot. 100 from EGM. It's just not IGN for a change.

I am not sure where he got his data from.
If it is from Metacritic maybe most average/low reviews happen to be from the US.
Or maybe he saw sales figures. Or maybe the lower reception compared to other regions is unfounded

edit PS: Going through the low and average hastely, at first glance most average/low reviews seem to be from English speaking regions (US, UK, AU). I am at work now so if someone has time to check more thoroughly, it would be nice

 

[Sigfried1977]

Even if most of the lower reviews on Metacritic came from US sites, 86 reviews aren't anywhere near large enough of a sample size to draw informed conclusions about cultural differences. Especially not when half of them aren't even negative.

As far as sales are concerned: Death stranding sold worse than the utterly boilerplate Days Gone in the oh-so-cultured UK.

 

[Nesh]

I personally consider the UK closer to the US compared to other EU territories

 

[Scott_Arm]

Thats not the point. Kojima was referring to territorial differences/territorial reception, not gamers that like it and gamers that dont which is what you were referring to. There are gamers that liked or did not like the game everywhere but some territories received it better and some did not according to him. Secondly my post is not referring to gameplay mechanics and game design, but the themes and concept of the game. And I am pretty sure region analysis is probably done by the marketing department of the company which I ve at least seen it happen in other industries.

But you are proving my point that it is hard not to point background differences without unintentionally irritating someone who will misunderstand it and turn the argument somewhere else.
It would be interesting if someone took the time to make a statistical analysis and check with numbers that a reception of certain content isn't uniform across territories.

Your post says the USA is relatively young and hasn't grown to appreciate the social concepts that Kojima is building his game around, which is a whole lot of bullshit. Sorry, it's bullshit. It's some kind of elitist wordview of Europe or Japan vs the USA, as if Europe is buying FIFA and Call of Duty by the boatload, and Europe isn't as enamored with Fortnite, Counter-Strike, Battlefield as everywhere else. I'm not sure what proof there is that the USA likes Death Stranding less or more than anywhere else. But to make the leap that the USA doesn't look death stranding, so it must be because they "didn't grow up to appreciate these concepts?" Sounds elitist to me. Not to mention, I think you could find a lot of people that are highly immersed in poetry, art, literature and they'd probably view the Metal Gear saga as a low-brow turd.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

I personally consider the UK closer to the US compared to other EU territories

Ditto.