Does MS need to support more new IPs this gen? *spawn

Yes because we all know that the bigger the sales are the better the game is.
You can't pay your rent with a glowing Kotaku review.
Kameradschaft said:
As SteelOak already said quality does not translate in good sales, take for example Resistance 3 that did pretty bad sales wise while it was a really great game IMO
In your opinion, it was a great game. The problem is it needs to be a good game--at least better than something else you could buy for sixty dollars--in about 1 to 3 million people's opinion, which it wasn't.
Don't get me wrong, I know that quality titles tend to sell better than "bad" games but poor sales don't automatically mean that the title was of a poor quality.
Poor sales means it wasn't good enough to earn a purchase.
Besides, I don't know why you think that MS exclusives are selling worse than Sony's since even Sony knows that this is not true.
MS has a very small number of exclusives that sell very, very well, but a very large number that completely bomb.
joker said:
Microsoft understood the value of software developers, so they gave them a simple platform with great tools and helped us all along the way to make the best games for the core.
That doesn't really matter when the developers bite the bullet and port to the PS3 anyway. Like, I'm sure that developing the 360 version AC3 is a lot easier, but the PS3 version is still happening.
Sony on the otherhand considered developers as mere cogs and provided a platform that required years to work around with tools so limited and primitive that it made ones head explode, and they missed on the importance of online to the core treating it as an afterthough.
How is your rival making a huge mistake not lucky? Unless MS had saboteurs embedded in Sony's management, this was pure luck on MS's part. The #1 thing MS capitalized on was Sony choking on its own hubris. But MS suffers from plenty of dysfunction itself, which is why it was unable to pull what Sony pulled on Sega and Nintendo in the 90s.
which was quite easy to do once devs saw how easy their platform was to deal with and how they were clearly taking over the us market with said simple and complete platform.
MS "stole" almost nobody. Rather, nearly everyone that was voluntarily exclusive last gen went cross-platform this gen (if it was about avoiding Sony's awful tools, they wouldn't have made PS3 games at all) because there is no one platform claiming 80% of the market.
 
You can't pay your rent with a glowing Kotaku review.

In your opinion, it was a great game. The problem is it needs to be a good game--at least better than something else you could buy for sixty dollars--in about 1 to 3 million people's opinion, which it wasn't.

Poor sales means it wasn't good enough to earn a purchase.


Have you played Crackdown or Banjo: Nuts & Bolts ?
 
I don't know, there are plent of exclusives that do sell in the millions that are important to the libraries of their respective console. It's just one of many considerations for a person buying a console. With previous generations, it was pretty much the only thing to consider.


Personally, I'd kill off IP's that don't sell. Late in the gen, focus on maximizing your money makers while having a portfolio of new IP's ready for next gen to generate that interest and see what sticks.
 
You can't pay your rent with a glowing Kotaku review.

In your opinion, it was a great game. The problem is it needs to be a good game--at least better than something else you could buy for sixty dollars--in about 1 to 3 million people's opinion, which it wasn't.

Poor sales means it wasn't good enough to earn a purchase.

MS has a very small number of exclusives that sell very, very well, but a very large number that completely bomb.

That doesn't really matter when the developers bite the bullet and port to the PS3 anyway. Like, I'm sure that developing the 360 version AC3 is a lot easier, but the PS3 version is still happening.

How is your rival making a huge mistake not lucky? Unless MS had saboteurs embedded in Sony's management, this was pure luck on MS's part. The #1 thing MS capitalized on was Sony choking on its own hubris. But MS suffers from plenty of dysfunction itself, which is why it was unable to pull what Sony pulled on Sega and Nintendo in the 90s.

MS "stole" almost nobody. Rather, nearly everyone that was voluntarily exclusive last gen went cross-platform this gen (if it was about avoiding Sony's awful tools, they wouldn't have made PS3 games at all) because there is no one platform claiming 80% of the market.

MS had to execute to take market share from Sony, and they did. Even when your competitor screws up, you still have to put out a good product (which they did), especially when that competitor is the dominant market-leader that's name is synonymous with the product (console = Playstation). Microsoft deserves a lot of credit. They were developer friendly, and put a good product on the shelves for consumers, and basically dominated in online for the first half of the generation. Sony had a lot of catching up to do. If Sony wasn't Sony, and didn't have that brand strength, it could have been real ugly early on. Even with the Microsoft's own huge failure, with the Red Ring, they still sold a lot of consoles that pushed a lot of software.
 
I don't know, there are plenty of exclusives that do sell in the millions that are important to the libraries of their respective console. It's just one of many considerations for a person buying a console. With previous generations, it was pretty much the only thing to consider.

I agree completely. Exclusives are still important, but they are no longer the all-important differentiator that they once were. As consoles have become more feature-filled, those features have enabled additional means for the platform holders to set their consoles apart. Co-operative/competitive online play seemingly being the most important of these. It's not hard to imagine someone who might prefer one console's exclusives over another's decide, ultimately, not buy that console if the other is the one all of their friends own.
 
That doesn't really matter when the developers bite the bullet and port to the PS3 anyway. Like, I'm sure that developing the 360 version AC3 is a lot easier, but the PS3 version is still happening.

Of course it mattered, and mattered in a huge way. Because of things like poor tools not allowing us to properly optimized ps3 builds, having ~100mb+ less memory to use on ps3, etc, meant that ps3 versions always lagged behind the 360 versions to a significant extent. Word of mouth got out and the damage was done, core gamers that wanted to play the best version had to get it on 360 not just for the better online support but to get the better game in general. Sony chose it to be like that by ignoring what developpers needed, but it really didn't have to be that way.


How is your rival making a huge mistake not lucky? Unless MS had saboteurs embedded in Sony's management, this was pure luck on MS's part. The #1 thing MS capitalized on was Sony choking on its own hubris. But MS suffers from plenty of dysfunction itself, which is why it was unable to pull what Sony pulled on Sega and Nintendo in the 90s.

I don't think it was pure luck at all. Historically Japanese console companies don't support developers very much. Developers to them are cogs, they will work with whatever they are given and do whatever it takes to get the job done with whatever poor "tools" they are given. We've seen this in tons of platforms in the past where developement tools are just rediculously bad with Japanese consoles. This is the first time Sony has had to go head on against a full fledged software company and that's why they lost, because Sony's priorities were very different from Microsofts, one being a hardware company and the other a software company. Software wins the race, that's been said time and again in the past and that applies to the development process as well but in the past it was always Japanese hardware company vs Japanese hardware company, so the development process was equally horrific all around. I can think of just one exception there, the PS1 was actually relatively easy to develop by Japanese standards and that may have helped them leapfrog their competition at the time. I remember being irritated by the PS1 due to documentation only being in Japanese for much of the docs, etc, stuff like that, but by Japanese standards that machine was a breeze to develop for. Even there though they fall short of what a company like Microsoft deems as good tools, it's just a different league.


MS "stole" almost nobody. Rather, nearly everyone that was voluntarily exclusive last gen went cross-platform this gen (if it was about avoiding Sony's awful tools, they wouldn't have made PS3 games at all) because there is no one platform claiming 80% of the market.

It was a domino effect. Sony launching with a machine that was so far behind in both tools, available memory, etc, meant that the 360 gained enough foothold to where Microsoft was now able to court publishers resistant to the 360 platform and have them defect. The situation way back then when I was involved was that the 360 was a temporary platform, we all started on it but the intent was we would all switch over to ps3 fulltime and the 360 would eventually just get ports. No one at that time expected the 360 to amount to much. It didn't turn out that way as when we all saw how shockingly behind Sony was, lacking on basic stuff like consistent online, achivements, fast game patching, tools, memory, etc that our plans changed and we stayed on 360 as the primary platform. I can't imagine we were the only ones that saw it this way, as indeed the 360 held on as the primary platform for most developers for many years to come. That process insured it was the best platform for the best selling games after which publisher after publisher caved in and started to support the 360. This entire situation was avoidable, but it all came to be this way because Sony was clueless about developers and what they needed.

Really all Sony had to do is take some of that small fortune they poured into 1st party games and divert it to tools and support. Sure we still would have had to deal with the slow bluray drive, split memory, rsx and spu tasks, but with the right tools and support it would not have taken 7 years to figure out, maybe just a year or two. We all had issues on the 360 as well, it's cpu sucked and ran legacy code like ass but Microsoft was there with tools to identify bottlenecks and hands on support to let us know exactly why code performed poorly so we were able to rapidly fix it from the beginning. I mean heck we used to be able to litereally debug a pixel on the 360 very early on, you could see exactly every step a pixel took during the render process and debug it. Or back in 2005 I spent two days with key Microsoft staff in Redmond doing nothing but profiling our game with them. They told us tons of valuable info at the time to optmize our game, patiently sitting there with me and another coder as we went over everything in extreme detail. That attention to developpers and tools is what turned the tide for them, along with other forward thinking like XBlive.
 
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It's because they didn't get lucky. Microsoft understood the value of software developers, so they gave them a simple platform with great tools and helped us all along the way to make the best games for the core. They also understood the importance of online gaming to the core and gave them the best online platform. Sony on the otherhand considered developers as mere cogs and provided a platform that required years to work around with tools so limited and primitive that it made ones head explode, and they missed on the importance of online to the core treating it as an afterthough. The result was inevitable, the games on Sony's box performed poorly, even many 1st party ones, and it took years to not only sort that out but also years for their 1st parties to sort it out, delaying franchises critical to their plarform, and their online experience simply could not compare to the competition. Simply put, they collosally blew it. Final blows came from Microsoft's additional stragegy of stealing key devs and ip's, which was quite easy to do once devs saw how easy their platform was to deal with and how they were clearly taking over the us market with said simple and complete platform.
Giving credit where it's due, Sony's tools are significantly better now, to the point where some developers are now leading on PS3 because the toolchain is more efficient and a few seconds here and there add up quickly.

MS has a very small number of exclusives that sell very, very well, but a very large number that completely bomb.
Ooh, so now you're saying we have a "very large number" of exclusives? I thought MS hardly had any exclusives. We're abandoning our core, dontchaknow?

But, essentially, you're making my point. Games like Kameo, Viva Pinata and Crackdown are excellent, but if they don't capture the hearts of gamers, they fail. Exclusive IP is risky.
Sure there are exclusives that deserve to fail because they suck: Lair was universally panned, and Perfect Dark Zero too, it was painful to play, but a lot of excellent games fail because they target the wrong demographic, or they get no advertising, or they're just not what the players expected, or they're not God of War or Halo.
 
MS had to execute to take market share from Sony, and they did.
I don't think they actually executed all that well. There are things they did right, and there are an awful lot of things they did wrong, and those things they did wrong are why they're looking at slightly around 30% market share globally instead of 50% or even 80%. Even ignoring the Wii phenomenon, if Microsoft had executed on the 360 as well as Sony did with the PS1, the PS3 would have wheezed past the 20m mark in 2010 and Sony would have announced the PS4 at the 2011 E3.
kagemaru said:
Then why are you even in this thread? You can't speak for the exclusives or how good/bad they are. All you're doing is moving the goal post.
Yeah, I can. I can look at sales data and say that pretty clearly, the overall consensus on most of the new IP Microsoft introduces is that there are better things to spend money on.
bkilian said:
oh, so now you're saying we have a "very large number" of exclusives? I thought MS hardly had any exclusives. We're abandoning our core, dontchaknow?
I said right from the start that Microsoft had no problem with the quantity of IP. Pay attention.
Sure there are exclusives that deserve to fail because they suck: Lair was universally panned, and Perfect Dark Zero too, it was painful to play, but a lot of excellent games fail because they target the wrong demographic, or they get no advertising, or they're just not what the players expected, or they're not God of War or Halo.
Or because the Kotaku definition of "good" and "sucks" is not shared by all that many people.
 
I think the following anecdote sums up the difference between Sony and MS' dev experience.

When I got my first XBox dev-kit, I plugged it in it booted I put a CD in my PC installed the software and compiled and ran the samples.
I was astonished, because it was the first time I hadn't had to fight a dev-kit to run something on it.

Sony is a lot better today than it was circa PS2, and there are places the current tools are better than their MS counterparts (the linker is faster than MS' among other things).

Early PS3 devkits and tools were horrible.

I don't think Sony will make the same mistake again, but they've lost the advantage of having 70+% of the installed base.

And FWIW I don't believe luck had anything todo with the 360's success, MS had good hardware a year earlier, executed on the vision for Live, and got enough good exclusives out quickly enough to build mindshare. They out executed Sony plain and simple, now can they do that again? I don't know, I think they may have an issue securing exclusive content during the important launch window.
 
In many ways it seems that if the EDD is now a profit center then the actions of the Xbox group may be better predicted in terms of how bold they are in terms of spending money on new I.P. by how Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 get received at the end of the year and the start of this year. If the phone and tablet group starts making a decent whack of money then the Xbox group will likely have a freer rein to take bolder actions.
 
Yeah, I can. I can look at sales data and say that pretty clearly, the overall consensus on most of the new IP Microsoft introduces is that there are better things to spend money on.

So according to you a game that sells 5 milion copies is objectively better than a game that sells 1 million copies which in turn is better than a game that sells 500k copies. Is that correct? Also you don't have to personally play/experience a game to know whether it's good. Just look at the sales numbers. 20 million = awesome, 10 milion = good, 1 milion = waste of time. Right ?
 
They out executed Sony plain and simple, now can they do that again? I don't know, I think they may have an issue securing exclusive content during the important launch window.

Well the question becomes is exclusives what they really need for the next console launch? Back in 2005 sure, that was key. And sure they would need some form of exclusive for the 720. But I'd argue that some form of must have tie in to tablets, phones and Win 8, or some new must have feature on XBlive, some new service, etc, may be of more value than exclusives alone. I think the landscape has changed to where other things are just as important as exclusives (possibly more so), and maybe some timed 3rd party exclusives would be enough on the game side. Rather than fund an entire studio, just shovel a much smaller amount of money to some 3rd parties to make sure some games are both timed exclusives to the 720 and that they perform best on that platform by giving them all the dev help they need. To me the idea of a console maker owning and funding enture studios just seems like an antiquated business practice.
 
To me the idea of a console maker owning and funding enture studios just seems like an antiquated business practice.

Well, it's a must for Nintendo where third party support is a potential problem, the audience seems to have a bit different taste and there is no real push in the features race. For both MS and Sony I agree. There is much overlap between first and third party output on those platforms. It almost seems like the console manufacturers are competing with their third party partners at times.
 
Well the question becomes is exclusives what they really need for the next console launch? Back in 2005 sure, that was key. And sure they would need some form of exclusive for the 720. But I'd argue that some form of must have tie in to tablets, phones and Win 8, or some new must have feature on XBlive, some new service, etc, may be of more value than exclusives alone. I think the landscape has changed to where other things are just as important as exclusives (possibly more so), and maybe some timed 3rd party exclusives would be enough on the game side. Rather than fund an entire studio, just shovel a much smaller amount of money to some 3rd parties to make sure some games are both timed exclusives to the 720 and that they perform best on that platform by giving them all the dev help they need. To me the idea of a console maker owning and funding enture studios just seems like an antiquated business practice.

I don't know... I'm making the assumption they don't radically change their pricing model, say moving to a predominantly service charge based approach.

At the launch pricepoint, I think whether MS thinks they are or not they are targeting core gamers, I don't think they are likely to see a 12 month window with no competition again, so unless one platform has a significant advantage in the 3rd party games, core gamers are comparing exclusives.

I do think converting hardcore Live gamers is going to be hard for Sony.

FWIW I don't think MS should be in the business of owning game studios, I don't think that culturally MS is set up to have them succeed after purchase. MS has the EA problem of imposing it's corporate culture on purchased dev's, more often than not that kills developers. Developers are the staff, and staff work at a company because they like the environment, whole sale changes to culture generally leads to leaving employees.

That shouldn't stop them signing exclusives with second parties, Sony do this as well, they don't own Quantic Dream. But I think MS is better suited to that model than the buy teams model.
 
And FWIW I don't believe luck had anything todo with the 360's success...
Luck's always a part of business, or any human endeavour. Factors outside of our sphere of influence affect the outcomes of our endeavours. The best we can do is get our choices right and hope the rest goes to plan. In MS's case, their execution was excellent this gen with good hardware properly supported. But if Sony had launched PS3 alongside at the same price without BRD say, off the weight of PS2, maybe that's all it'd have taken for them to run away with gen. So I'd say MS weren't lucky, in that it wasn't a fluke they managed to grow XB as well as they did, but at the same time things did go right for them thanks to Sony's ineptitude, and had Sony put up a stronger fight, MS may have been in a far weaker position and we'd be saying, "XB360 was a great machine; MS were just unlucky with the competition."

Putting it another way, the guy who came second to Usain Bolt (Richard Thompson) was unlucky that he couldn't get into the Olympics 4 years early (been born 4 years earlier, say) and win gold. Or had Bolt had trouble getting to the Olympics, Thompson would have been lucky without us ever realising it, and we'd say, "it wasn't luck; it was training and dedication and an ability to deliver on the day."
 
All your really saying there is that you don't control everything, which is something of a truism.

You can can only play the cards your dealt as the saying goes. MS executed well, Sony didn't...

I don't equate good execution or poor execution to luck.

Can you execute well and still fail obviously yes.
 
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