Do you think there will be a mid gen refresh console from Sony and Microsoft?

[Globalisateur]

This is a very awkward configuration.
I was thinking the pro would be a butterfly of the existing setup for effortless emulation, but 60 CUs puts it very close to XSX architecture.
Keeping the same amount of FF hardware, same bus size, but now with 16 DWGP per Shader Engine, 2 shader engines, with 1 DWGP disabled for yield, this is the only way to get to 60CU layout. Or it's 15 DWGP per SE, and 1 disabled netting 56CUs.

It's effectively XSX, but with a smaller memory bus, less cache, and likely much faster clock speeds. The only raster improvements I'm expecting is going to be on the clockside of things.

Really interested to see how this one turns out. Based on everyone else's previous commentary about XSX having the worst amount of cache or bandwidth per CU, this is going to take the cake.

This is very likely what PS5 Pro (using RDNA3.5) will get (15 activated WGPs by SE, totaling 30WGPs exactly as Henderson claimed). I was worried about efficiency using RDNA2/3 layout but according to Kepler RDNA3.5 architecture among others improvements has being restructured to take into account the increased number of WGP by SE.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1696188997742014742

 

[iroboto]

This is very likely what PS5 Pro (using RDNA3.5) will get (15 activated WGPs by SE, totaling 30WGPs exactly as Henderson claimed). I was worried about efficiency using RDNA2/3 layout but according to Kepler RDNA3.5 architecture among others improvements has being restructured to take into account the increased number of WGP by SE.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1696188997742014742

this is a massive SOC.

 

[arandomguy]

I don't think that's a fair assessment. For me, XBSS is the current-gen console for 1080p TVs who don't care for 4K. It shouldn't be massively gimped below the XBSX/PS5 experience. Broadly speaking, you need 1/4 the power for 1/4 the resolution, so why should everything else including framerate suffer? And actual specs are 33% GPU, 95% CPU and 63% RAM, and 40% RAM BW - all figures above the 25% of a theoretical linear resolution scaling.

I guess it's only a issue if XBSS is being pushed to sub-1080p resolutions where XBSX games are sub-4K. But the XBSS isn't marketed that way and I don't think buyers should be expected to anticipated significantly downgraded games.

My feeling with the XBS is an issue might be that the plans were way back when DRAM costs were high (peaking for the DDR4/GDDR6 cycle) and I wonder if they went too aggressive in cost optimizations based on that. Even the XSX my guess is memory cost optimizations played into the more "exotic" memory configuration. Just going off old hot chips presentation for instance the Xbox team did seem very concerned about DRAM costs going forward (at the time). Given today's memory prices and trajectory (especially relative to the rest of the system) I wonder what might have been if the XBS had more memory and neither had the split speed memory pools. Well maybe split pools, but a dedicated pool purely for the OS/System.

It seems historically the Xbox tries to be more unconventional with their memory setup and let's just say hindsight analysis always seems mixed at best in terms of how that works out.

 

[^M^]

This is very likely what PS5 Pro (using RDNA3.5) will get (15 activated WGPs by SE, totaling 30WGPs exactly as Henderson claimed). I was worried about efficiency using RDNA2/3 layout but according to Kepler RDNA3.5 architecture among others improvements has being restructured to take into account the increased number of WGP by SE.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1696188997742014742

That sounds expensive

 

[Frenetic Pony]

This is very likely what PS5 Pro (using RDNA3.5) will get (15 activated WGPs by SE, totaling 30WGPs exactly as Henderson claimed). I was worried about efficiency using RDNA2/3 layout but according to Kepler RDNA3.5 architecture among others improvements has being restructured to take into account the increased number of WGP by SE.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1696188997742014742

Or, you know, RDNA4, which is scheduled to come out right when the supposed Pro does, and does exactly what Sony is supposedly aiming for (better RT performance with the new RT block).

 

[Globalisateur]

Or, you know, RDNA4, which is scheduled to come out right when the supposed Pro does, and does exactly what Sony is supposedly aiming for (better RT performance with the new RT block).

According to Kepler PS5 Pro is supposedly RDNA3.5 + RDNA4 new RT units. I don't think it'll make a big difference anyways, same way PS5 not being fully RDNA2 didn't make a big difference in the end against RDNA2 GPUs.

 

[pjbliverpool]

According to Kepler PS5 Pro is supposedly RDNA3.5 + RDNA4 new RT units. I don't think it'll make a big difference anyways, same way PS5 not being fully RDNA2 didn't make a big difference in the end against RDNA2 GPUs.

Didn't he guess that it would include RDNA4 RT units?

It's not an unrealistic guess to be fair but I don't recall it being posted as a known specification.

 

[Rangers]

performence/price beast as I doubt it will be 2x more expensive than ps5 or xsx

Maybe but as a semi-disappointed Xbox One X owner last gen dont expect too much. You just get a few minor doo dads, higher res of the same games. Nothing fundamental with mid gen refreshes versions of the games.

They're still nice though, very nice for those who want the best possible console experience. You just feel like there's a lot of power not being used IMO. As a Xbox ecosystem, and a power nerd I will always buy the mid gen Xbox if there is one probably. Heck might even get the PS5 Pro. But TBH I dont really feel like they've scratched the surface of the Series X yet!

A SSD would have served the One X great, as it's a drop in upgrade devs dont really need to work to see benefits of, but I guess it was too early.

They may stick to one going forward. Another reason I think they launched 2:
1: Xbox
2: Xbox 360
3: Xbox one
4: Xbox series S
5: Xbox series X
6: Xbox 6

They can finally align numbers with Sony for next Gen.

They could have done Xbox 6 this gen. I said it along but it's pretty clear Series S was a flop and I maintain a big reason why includes that it necessitated convoluted naming that confuses grandma. One X, One S, Series X, Series S...now PS5, everybody instantly groks what that means.

Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox One, Xbox One S, Xbox One X, ....Series X could have been Xbox 6 (presuming no S, etc) and the number is higher than PS5. If you wanted. Yes it's a tad of a stretch but companies obviously do not care about that.

 

[Flappy Pannus]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1703994120937869528

Who knows when this was initially sketched out, I guess technically this is not a 'mid gen refresh' in the sense of a new Pro model, just a storage boost and new form factor so Spencer is kinda/sorta still correct in that MS was not pursuing a midgen refresh this gen.

As for the price, $499 with 2TB and no optical drive, seems a bit high considering this is expected in 2024 and the plummeting of the SSD market. This could have been specced out years ago before the manufacturing bottlenecks have eased somewhat. If that's what they plan to launch this at, then it indicates the PS5 Pro possibly having a significant price hike, or MS is going to get their ass handed to them if the ~2X more powerful console from Sony is the same or just a $100 premium. Assuming of course, they plan to go through with this.

Would love at least the controller to be real though. The SX controller is so damn noisy, plus haptics (but doesn't appear to be triggers, boo) means there would actually be a wireless haptic controller option for PC users.

 

[SmooTh]

Some of the (leaked) FTC docs were from 2020 (mostly 2021)

Edit: the Gen 10 Xbox seems to be from May 2022 so maybe a bit later than 2021

 

[Frenetic Pony]

Kinda what I expected out of Sony, interesting that MS is looking at this.

I wonder what that Gen 10 Xbox stuff about being "more flexible" was. Maybe since it's "Gen10" they'll add yet another X. XBOXXX, the leading edge in 2000's internet humor.

 

[-tkf-]

I never understood what issue DF had with a PS5 Pro, it will run games at a higher resolution with better graphic fidelity and at a higher framerate. Or in other words, everything DF measures and judges a consoles performance on will be markedly improved.

EDIT: So if i want a XBOX SX with a Disc Drive i should get the current version before they completed remove that option?

 

[Opeth]

I never understood what issue DF had with a PS5 Pro, it will run games at a higher resolution with better graphic fidelity and at a higher framerate. Or in other words, everything DF measures and judges a consoles performance on will be markedly improved.

Maybe it's the fact it's even more work for them

 

[fehu]

No disc no buy :/

 

[babybumb]

Honestly i dont know how Xbox thinks its going to survive for four years after 2024 if PS5 Pro is 60fps in most games vs 30fps...(and no disc drive) it will lose most people who influence mainstream opinion. And they are doing very badly even now.. subscriptions and hardware are stalling

 

[Seanspeed]

I never understood what issue DF had with a PS5 Pro, it will run games at a higher resolution with better graphic fidelity and at a higher framerate. Or in other words, everything DF measures and judges a consoles performance on will be markedly improved.

They've explained it multiple times in their videos.

And DF are not just blindly 'pro whatever makes numbers go up'. They keep a reasonably grounded view of practical concerns like developer workloads and consumer value and all that, too.

Some of the (leaked) FTC docs were from 2020 (mostly 2021)

Edit: the Gen 10 Xbox seems to be from May 2022 so maybe a bit later than 2021

God I hope these were just early targets, cuz $499 for largely the same console, but now without a disc drive, would be a giant slap in the face, all while MS benefits from reduced costs in many areas.

More worrying is the fact that we're likely looking at an Xbox platform going forward that will not offer a disc drive in any guise, since these mid-gen refreshes replace the older models. Straight up full-digital. That's....kinda horrifying to me, honestly. It's going to make a lot of people upset and turn away lots of potential customers.

Dont like this one bit. It's even scarier knowing just how many studios Xbox has under them now, that will come at risk should Xbox financials start to flounder.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Honestly i dont know how Xbox thinks its going to survive for four years after 2024 if PS5 Pro is 60fps in most games vs 30fps...(and no disc drive) it will lose most people who influence mainstream opinion. And they are doing very badly even now.. subscriptions and hardware are stalling

Probably the same way the base PS4 and XBO survived and continued to sell multiple times what the PS4-P (or XBO-X) sold.

What a weird question.

Regards,
SB

 

[metacore]

Strange they only now choosing 6 nm for chip revision, that's a bit behind the curve IMO. 5nm capacity offering much better scaling for their larger chip should be available no problem by then. Wonder whats reasoning behind such decision, maybe with skyrocketing chip design cost and their lower production scale still prohibits going to more cutting edge nodes? or series S would scale "too much" (bus width etc )at 5nm.

Props for adding haptics and gyro tough, good for serious adoption on all platforms

I never understood what issue DF had with a PS5 Pro, it will run games at a higher resolution with better graphic fidelity and at a higher framerate. Or in other words, everything DF measures and judges a consoles performance on will be markedly improved.

EDIT: So if i want a XBOX SX with a Disc Drive i should get the current version before they completed remove that option?

Yeah and at the same time not seeing the problem with Series S ram configuration winch will be PITA for developers in later years, even with different resolution targets.

 

[Seanspeed]

Strange they only now choosing 6 nm for chip revision, that's a bit behind the curve IMO. 5nm capacity offering much better scaling for their larger chip should be available no problem by then. Wonder whats reasoning behind such decision, maybe with skyrocketing chip design cost and their lower production scale still prohibits going to more cutting edge nodes? or series S would scale "too much" (bus width etc )at 5nm.

I mean, they dont have to do a Series S revision. It shouldn't dictate what they do with Series X.

And yea, I'm a bit surprised that for something seemingly not coming til later in 2024, that they aren't going with a proper die shrink and Slim model for Series X. Yes, having to redesign the chip for 5nm would cost a chunk of money, but it's a one-time cost for something they will produce many millions of over like 5+ years. And yes, wafer costs are higher, but die shrinking a 360mm² chip should balance out really well with the significantly improved chips per wafer you get from it. There's a domino of further costs savings you get with the whole console by going with a smaller, more efficient chip as well.

I think they're just being cheap. Or made a bad bet early on that the economics wouldn't work when they might have realized later on that it actually might well have now that things have calmed down.

 

[-tkf-]

They've explained it multiple times in their videos.

And they never made a case for it that made any sense whatsoever for me, they are themselves starting to see more and more console game going for 30fps, they are measuring the cost of improved graphics on a daily basis, and they don't see any advantage to a more powerful PS5?

Yeah and at the same time not seeing the problem with Series S ram configuration winch will be PITA for developers in later years, even with different resolution targets.

Exactly, it's such a weird take.